The next Romulan - Klingon war

[Death from the Sea]

Um.... make up your mind are we scanning people with bio-beds or tri-corders? I am talking about how Starfleet would have better info to start research on how to build a trilithium torpedo than the Romulans would because of their tri-corder scans. You seem to switch what you are talking about every post.

[NecronLord]

*Snorts* The ability to scan something doesn't tell you how to build it. Hell all Geordi could actually tell was that it contained trilithium, and even then he had to open the probe to see that. Happy?

Are we done or are you going to continue to annoy me?

[Death from the Sea]

You are absolutely right the ability to scan something does not give you the ability to build it. But the scan can provide useful information upon further study of the scan information, and that information would go a long way to helping build the device. All I am and have been saying is that Starfleet is much more likely to possess the trilithium technology than the Romulans are but you seem to think that sticking your fingers in your ears and not listening makes it otherwise.

[NecronLord]

Does the fact that

A) The Romulans invented the damm thing.

B) They may well have obseverd everything the ent-D did.

C) It was stolen from them in the first place.

tell you that prehaps they know quite a bit about it, doubtless more than could be learned by a ship that was destroyed (with it's computer core, which was near main engineering IIRC) could have discovered from a passing enounter?

[Death from the Sea]

Does the fact that

A) The Romulans invented the damm thing.

No they didn't Soran invented the torpedo. They just had one element of the torpedo and they can't even stabilize the one element that they do have.

B) They may well have obseverd everything the ent-D did.

Maybe, but that is just pure speculation on your part and last I checked: NecronLord's speculation does not = Star Trek Canon.

C) It was stolen from them in the first place.

Just because they had the raw material, that does not mean they know how to use it. Like I said before it was stated that the Romulans couldn't stabilize the trilithium.

tell you that prehaps they know quite a bit about it, doubtless more than could be learned by a ship that was destroyed (with it's computer core, which was near main engineering IIRC) could have discovered from a passing enounter?

The Ent-D scans were just extra possible info to put with the tri-corder scans. Even if we throw away the Ent-D scans there is still the information from the tri-corders. So once again Starfleet is still ahead of the Romulans. Face it your fantasy of the Romulans magically developing the technology is on the verge of fan wanking.

[NecronLord]

No they didn't Soran invented the torpedo. They just had one element of the torpedo and they can't even stabilize the one element that they do have.

Fairly obviously they can stabilize it and starfleet intelligence isn't ommniescent.

Just because they had the raw material, that does not mean they know how to use it. Like I said before it was stated that the Romulans couldn't stabilize the trilithium.

And then proven wrong by the fact that that's where Soran got his from. Starfleet can make mistakes you know.

The Ent-D scans were just extra possible info to put with the tri-corder scans. Even if we throw away the Ent-D scans there is still the information from the tri-corders. So once again Starfleet is still ahead of the Romulans. Face it your fantasy of the Romulans magically developing the technology is on the verge of fan wanking.

Would this be Geordi's tricorder, the one with him when he was captured by the Duras Sisters, or the one data called Mr Tricorder?

[NecronLord]

Having just watched the relavent scenes of Generations, at no point do they scan the probe with tricorders. So unless you think that Data flapping it up and down and saying "Make it so" somehow does some freaky scanning, I think that's done.

Only Geordi's visor is used to scan it, and all it does is "pick up something in the theta band, it could be trilithium." As that was later picked apart by the Duras sisters I think that settles that.

And as the enterprise did not know where the torpedo was on the planets surface, and it was behind a 50Gw force field, and it was only launched (and thus concievably scanned (by the crashed ship no less)) in a collapsed reality, no scans were made of the technology by the Feddies.

Happy? Thank you for making up tricorder scanning scenes.

[Death from the Sea]

Once again I must remind you that your speculation does not count as canon in Star Trek. Now if in a future series or movie they show Worf's information to be wrong then so be it. Until that happens the Romulans don't have a way to stabilize trilithium and nor do they have a way to use it as a weapon in official Trek canon. Once again I must remind you we do not know what they mean by stabilizing trilitium, for all we know trilithium deteriorates quickly over time, or that being able to 'stabilize' it is how you make it effective to use as a weapon.
The Ent-D was present for the trilithium torpedo that hit the Armagosa star and scanned what happened to the star subsequently. Also lets say the Ent-D main computer core it in the stardrive section. Obviously the have some sort of computer core in the saucer section otherwise it would be unable to operate seperately and that could have the scan info.

[NecronLord]

The Ent-D was present for the trilithium torpedo that hit the Armagosa star and scanned what happened to the star subsequently. Also lets say the Ent-D main computer core it in the stardrive section. Obviously the have some sort of computer core in the saucer section otherwise it would be unable to operate seperately and that could have the scan info.

Oh puhlease. The star flashes and then finally Picard gets called to the bridge. They did not even notice the damm thing until the star had massively increased it's intensity.

I'll tell you what. Your speculation is as canon as mine. Go back to the sea and get some evidence that they scanned the probe on a level above there is a solar probe headed toward the star, otherwise shut your hole.

And no, there is no backup of the main computer, or they would have used it in contagion, or evoloution or indeed any episode where there is a problem with the main computer, where if a backup existed, they would switch to it. The saucer section may have a smaller computer to handle it's own functions, but it does not have a backup of the main one.

[Death from the Sea]

You are absolutely right my speculation is not canon, but I never said it was, all I said is that starfleet is more likely to have the trilithium tech than the Romulans are. You are the one who insisted that the Romulans had to have been able to miraculously figure out the technology when it was beyond them before.
And I will have to go back and watch parts of Generations to see what you are talking about.
By the way, I think you might need to calm down a bit since you are apparently taking this personally and starting to make personal jabs at me.

[Sothis]

I give this to the Klingons. By the very end of the Dominion War, we are left with the Klingons and Romulans on a reasonably equal footing, as per Odo's statement that neither of them would be strong enough to challenge the Dominion again- the Federation wouldn't let them. The Female Changeling, who has access to all the intel of the Dominion, decided to trust Odo in his judgement. She must have had intel gathered on the Dominion's enemies and surely wouldn't take Odo at his word alone.

With the Romulans and Klingons on equal footing, I see the Klingons gaining the advantage. They can build smaller ships more quickly, like the BoPs, and the K'Tinga battlecruisers, and anyway, a Warbird's sheer size is not proof alone of superior construction techniques- remember, a lot of a Warbird is empty space- namely that huge gaping maw between the warp nacelles.

The Klingons have already proven they can be just as happily ruthless as the Romulans- Season 7 of DS9, 'The Changing Face of Evil' (or was it Strange Bedfellows), Martok is gloating over the slaughter of 500'000 old and weary Cardassian troops- the Klingons are not above engaging in one-sided slaughters when need be.

All the Klingons need to do is build up their fleet, swarm Romulan forces, and use their numerical advantage to either strike at targets of opportunity, or keep Romulan forces guarding said targets.

[NecronLord]

Sloan, of Section 31 makes it clear that the Klingons aren't going to be a power after the war in S7 Inter Arma... And the Romulans and the Feddies will be the major players for the next decade.

And yes, a bigger ship is proof of superior construction capabilities, see the Size Matters page on the site.

[Sothis]

Sloan, of Section 31 makes it clear that the Klingons aren't going to be a power after the war in S7 Inter Arma... And the Romulans and the Feddies will be the major players for the next decade.

And yes, a bigger ship is proof of superior construction capabilities, see the Size Matters page on the site.

Sloan's comments come over 10 episodes before the finale... in that time, anything could have happened.

And if the Romulans were building ships that weren't mostly empty space between the nacelles, then I'd accept they had superior contruction... but in the end, you've got a gap wide enough to squeeze a defiant-class ship in (probably two) between those nacelles. Hardly superior construction, just a very different design from most.

[NecronLord]

Sloan's comments come over 10 episodes before the finale... in that time, anything could have happened.

Or prehaps the Dominion don't really know what's going on in their enemies territories?

And if the Romulans were building ships that weren't mostly empty space between the nacelles, then I'd accept they had superior contruction... but in the end, you've got a gap wide enough to squeeze a defiant-class ship in (probably two) between those nacelles. Hardly superior construction, just a very different design from most.

Read the god damm page. See Stress tolerance.

[Sothis]

Sloan's comments come over 10 episodes before the finale... in that time, anything could have happened.

Or prehaps the Dominion don't really know what's going on in their enemies territories?

Or perhaps she found enough truth in what Odo told her (particularly since they melded) to trust him? After all, Odo, being security chief of DS9 and part of Sisko's staff, would presumably have access to intel? The Female Changeling too, would undoubtably have access to intel too. Besides, like I mentioned, Sloan's comment comes over 10 episodes from the end of DS9. During those 10 episodes, the Breen show up, Damar rebels, the Klingons are left holding the line by themselves for a few weeks... for all we know the Romulans took a beating at the hands of the Breen. For all we know the Romulans lead a charge to slaughter the Breen after the war. It's all totally up in the air.

And if the Romulans were building ships that weren't mostly empty space between the nacelles, then I'd accept they had superior contruction... but in the end, you've got a gap wide enough to squeeze a defiant-class ship in (probably two) between those nacelles. Hardly superior construction, just a very different design from most.

Read the god damm page. See Stress tolerance.

You know what? Perhaps you should read the Stress tolerance page yourself. If the Warbird's mass were significantly greater to it's Vor'Cha counterpart in addition to volume, then you'd have a case. But just what is the load-bearing ability of such a hollow shell? Just why is the Warbird an example of superior construction when it's simply bigger? Like I said, you can squeeze entire starships into the gaping empty space within it. Most of a Warbird is a gaping maw. You put an Excelsior class ship on top of one, and it'll cave in if planet-bound (ok, dumb example I know). Do the same to a Vor'cha, and at least it can't collapse in on itself (or at least, not as easily).

[NecronLord]

Or perhaps she found enough truth in what Odo told her (particularly since they melded) to trust him? After all, Odo, being security chief of DS9 and part of Sisko's staff, would presumably have access to intel?

As much as a senior officer of Section 31?

The Female Changeling too, would undoubtably have access to intel too. Besides, like I mentioned, Sloan's comment comes over 10 episodes from the end of DS9. During those 10 episodes, the Breen show up, Damar rebels, the Klingons are left holding the line by themselves for a few weeks... for all we know the Romulans took a beating at the hands of the Breen. For all we know the Romulans lead a charge to slaughter the Breen after the war. It's all totally up in the air.

I see, your sepeculation...

You know what? Perhaps you should read the Stress tolerance page yourself. If the Warbird's mass were significantly greater to it's Vor'Cha counterpart in addition to volume, then you'd have a case. But just what is the load-bearing ability of such a hollow shell? Just why is the Warbird an example of superior construction when it's simply bigger?

Because making it into a shell shape increases the stress on the individual parts of the ship. And FYI, the mass of a warbird is in fact huge, as it contains a singularity, which was detectable by DS9.

Like I said, you can squeeze entire starships into the gaping empty space within it. Most of a Warbird is a gaping maw.

Yes, and?

You put an Excelsior class ship on top of one, and it'll cave in if planet-bound (ok, dumb example I know).
Do the same to a Vor'cha, and at least it can't collapse in on itself (or at least, not as easily).

Actually, it would collapse. The same as everyone else in Trek would.

[FOG3]

Worf's comment seemed to indicate all they needed to do was stabilize the trilithium for the Romulans to build one. Much like enriched unranium in nuclear bombs. Even lowly third worlders have begun designing and building nukes now despite attempt to prevent just that. Once a weapon like that is shown to be possible it's going to be built. This isn't like the Genisis device with its complex computers and programming with the entire research staff dead. The Romulans are known for being clever and sneaky. Why wouldn't it be logical for them to be doing as Sun Tzu in The Art of War stated "appear to be weak when you are strong."

[Sothis]

Or perhaps she found enough truth in what Odo told her (particularly since they melded) to trust him? After all, Odo, being security chief of DS9 and part of Sisko's staff, would presumably have access to intel?

As much as a senior officer of Section 31?

Yes, quite probably. After all, he did meld with the chief of Dominion forces in the Alpha Quadrant, did sit in on Starfleet war briefings, so one would figure he'd have a decent idea of what he was talking about.

The Female Changeling too, would undoubtably have access to intel too. Besides, like I mentioned, Sloan's comment comes over 10 episodes from the end of DS9. During those 10 episodes, the Breen show up, Damar rebels, the Klingons are left holding the line by themselves for a few weeks... for all we know the Romulans took a beating at the hands of the Breen. For all we know the Romulans lead a charge to slaughter the Breen after the war. It's all totally up in the air.

I see, your sepeculation...

I don't see you coming up with a better suggestion

You know what? Perhaps you should read the Stress tolerance page yourself. If the Warbird's mass were significantly greater to it's Vor'Cha counterpart in addition to volume, then you'd have a case. But just what is the load-bearing ability of such a hollow shell? Just why is the Warbird an example of superior construction when it's simply bigger?

Because making it into a shell shape increases the stress on the individual parts of the ship. And FYI, the mass of a warbird is in fact huge, as it contains a singularity, which was detectable by DS9.

A singularity may register as a large mass, but the actual structure of the ship, the metals and alloys, probably don't add up to much more mass than a Vorcha, if at all.

Yes, and?

Just imagine how much superior a Warbird would be if that great big gap was actually utilized. You could have extra power generators for disruptors, carry extra torpedoes, even carry troops in an Alacamatoresque fashion. Then it would a far superior ship to anything the Klingons have. As it stands, it's just a big empty space with a few joints, a neck, and a bird-face.

You put an Excelsior class ship on top of one, and it'll cave in if planet-bound (ok, dumb example I know).
Do the same to a Vor'cha, and at least it can't collapse in on itself (or at least, not as easily).

Actually, it would collapse. The same as everyone else in Trek would.

Lets try another example. In Generations the saucer of the Ent-D survives reentry into the atmosphere and crash-lands without much apparant damage. It doesn't appear to collapse on itself very much either. Could the warbird, designed as it is, cope with such stresses?