One thing I am tired of about Marvel

[Superman]

What do the X Men, Spiderman, the Punisher and the Hulk all have in common? Yep, everyone hates them despite the fact that they are all good guys. I realize Spiderman did manage to change his reputation in time, but let's talk about the movies. This is really Marvel's forte' here and I think it is getting old. Same formula: Hero is created, everyone hates the hero because he/she/they are outcasts, the hero saves people, end of movie. Come on Marvel, let's see a new formula here.

[Ghost Rider]

Remember Marvel Creed: Give the Illusion of change.

Simple as that.

[thecreech]

bah... thats why i never read the stories anymore... I only by comics because of art

[Darth_Shinji]

Well, its more beiviable reaction than total aduration... People fear what they do not understand, there not going to totally cofortable with any being with the powers some of these guys have. Can you honestly say you would be totally corfortable if a guy suddenly came flying out of no where with the power to destory the planet with a single punch? Even if he appeared as heroic as they come. Not to mention Spiderman was more lilked in the movie then he was disliked, their were like two people hating him and Jona printing that citzen arrest story in retailation for his humilation in his office. Fear is a far more natural emotion than trust.

[Ghost Rider]

And that's why Beast, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver are loved as Avengers?

Let's see three mutants, two of which were criminals...and later revealed as Magneto's Children. Two other were international spies.

Hell, Beast get stuff thrown at him when he's an X-Men...yet not an Avenger. He considered and mused upon this.

The FF aren't considered Mutants and are revered. Yet they displayed poewrs before anyone else.

In fact the mutants weren't feared until it became a selling point...it's always been. They could distinguish between X-Men and Magneto...nowadays...pfft.

Marvel has shown time after time they basically are arbitrary to who gets loved and who gets hated for nothing more then angle.

[Demiurge]

Well, its more beiviable reaction than total aduration... People fear what they do not understand, there not going to totally cofortable with any being with the powers some of these guys have. Can you honestly say you would be totally corfortable if a guy suddenly came flying out of no where with the power to destory the planet with a single punch? Even if he appeared as heroic as they come. Not to mention Spiderman was more lilked in the movie then he was disliked, their were like two people hating him and Jona printing that citzen arrest story in retailation for his humilation in his office. Fear is a far more natural emotion than trust.

At first, yes. It's understandable. But these heroes have existed for decades.

[Superman]

Nah, it entirely depends on the situation. You can't make a blanket statement here. A costumed do gooder like Superman or Captain America would be loved by most (given the fact that they save the world from things that could destroy it).

You are changing the topic. I simply said that I am tired of Marvel's formula.

[KK]

Where are the complaints that DC never has their heroes be anything other than 100% adored by the public, to the point of general worship?

The X-Men were created as a direct analogy to racial bigotry.
You want them to be adored? That makes no sense.

[Superman]

My message was for Darth Shinji, by the way.

[Superman]

KK, DC has plenty of heroes who are hated by people, just as Marvel has their shining heroes. All I am saying is that this formula Marvel is using is getting old and it is starting to make no sense.

[Death from the Sea]

I think it depends on the situation but for the most part I think that they would be met with fear and mistrust. Especially if they we very reclusive. Plus there is the whole vigilantism is illegal.

Maybe if they were paraded around in public and their deeds well publicized, like in early runs of IMAGE comics Youngblood, a government sanctioned team might be trusted by the public.

[KK]

Racism in the real world is getting old, and it makes no sense, either.

Think about it.

[Superman]

KK, how about reading the definition of the term "Red Herring." The definition is posted under the logical fallacies here.

[Ghost Rider]

Ah racial bigotry...and yet still used, never resolved...and makes less and less sense as time progresses.

Yes...in Marvel mutants are hated why again?

I mean there really isn't even a modern analogy anymore...thus why keep the charade, because it's the way it is. I mean what is it too represent the civic rights movement which is to the point no one truly remember...and hell do the X-men even care anymore?

Spidey is despised why?

Oh as for DC being always shining stars...because having the constant hatred is a little harder to swallow if you save the world for the umpteenth time only to be pelted by tomatos.

No one is that much of an altruist.

[KK]

A red herring has to be irrelevant, which my statement wasn't, since you are bitching about Marvel being too realistic.

[Superman]

Thank you for following up your red herring with a straw man. I am sure we can all see who we are trying to debate now.

[KK]

Ah racial bigotry...and yet still used, never resolved...and makes less and less sense as time progresses.

Yes...in Marvel mutants are hated why again?

Are you now going to tell me that racism doesn't exist any longer?

I mean there really isn't even a modern analogy anymore...thus why keep the charade, because it's the way it is. I mean what is it too represent the civic rights movement which is to the point no one truly remember...and hell do the X-men even care anymore?

You should read the recent Morrison run, where Prof X is publically outed as a mutant, his school is revealed as a mutant school, a faction of mutant haters boycotts outside the mansion, and Jean Grey invites them and TV crews in. After seeing the school grounds, the people became more accepting to mutants, and admitted they never knew much about them.

Then Cassandra Nova shows up, and the X-Men save all the people, who are gracious and decide mutants are ok after all.

Spidey is despised why?

Because Jameson keeps slandering him in the Daily Bugle.

He's not despised, anyway. The majority of the public loves him. He has fans, T-shirts, halloween costumes, and everything. There are just the select few ignorant people who believe what the Bugle tells them.

[KK]

Thank you for following up your red herring with a straw man. I am sure we can all see who we are trying to debate now.

Stop trying to label me with fallicies I didn't use.

You ARE bitching about Marvel being realistic, whether you intend to or not.

[KK]

Besides, your argument hinges on "everyone" hating them, which is a fallicy in and of itself. "Everyone" doesn't hate them. Ignorant people hate them.

[Superman]

You CHANGED my argument to my bitching about Marvel being too realistic. I said I am tired of the formula they are using. Text book example of a Straw Man, dumb ass. It's not my fault that you are too fucking stupid too look up the definition.

[KK]

"I said I am tired of the formula they are using."

The formula:

"Yep, everyone hates them despite the fact that they are all good guys. This is really Marvel's forte' here and I think it is getting old."

-and-

"Hero is created, everyone hates the hero because he/she/they are outcasts, the hero saves people, end of movie."

So let's substitute those back into the original sentence, shall we?

"I said I am tired of everyoen hating them despite the fact that they are all good guys."

-and-

"I am tired of the hero being created, everyone hating him, the hero saving people, and the movie ending."

Both of these are bitching about the realism Marvel portrays with how peopel would react to something they don't understand. You were, indeed and in fact, bitching about Marvel's realism.

And you used false statements to back up your issues, as well. Everyoen did not hate Spider-Man. When they gave the public opinions of him, only one person out of the whole bunch didn't like him, and they made it obvious that the guy was a halfwit. At the end of the movie, a hole mod of new Yorkers were throwing things at the Green Goblin in support of Spidey. You are WRONG about everyone hating him, and your issue with the movie is unsubstantiated.

In X-Men, the movie took the characters back to their roots. The book was indeed created about bigotry. The movie had bigotry as a theme. I'm sorry if you're not mature enough to deal with issues that are more than black and white.

In Hulk, the guy was a rampaging monster. Why in god's name would people flock to him? He was a mindless beast. What did you expect? Hulk helping old ladies across the street and making an appearance on Oprah?

I know perfectly well what a straw man is, and it wasn't one. So don't preach about how the only reason I could possibly not agree with you is if I don't know the definition. I did't agree with you because your call of fallicy was wrong.

[Darth_Shinji]

Nah, it entirely depends on the situation. You can't make a blanket statement here. A costumed do gooder like Superman or Captain America would be loved by most (given the fact that they save the world from things that could destroy it).

You are changing the topic. I simply said that I am tired of Marvel's formula.

I honestly don't think so. There would be a percantage that questioned a totally unknown superhuman of unfathomable power. Even if he saved lives and fight crime.... Remember we know his motives and origins... the people on DC earth do not. Would you be so sure of no ulteior motive? Perhapes they do use the formula alot, but it is a very realistic situation, at least at first.

And not to mention the fact that the Hulk, Spiderman, and x-men came out when that formula was new. But it depends on your cup of tea really.


Oh and GR... aren't the avengers and ff public superheros? I belive the avengers are/were governemnt sactioned and the FF lived in a public building with thier lives exposed to the public. Unlike say Spiderman that comes out of no were and breaks the law daily....Of course people back then stilled like him but the people who did fear him can be understood.

[justifier]

Also I'd like to take a stand for the Punisher, he's not hated by the public, because the public doesn't know about him. He's not some spandex wearing hero flying through New York, he's just an angry guy with a dream...and lots of guns. So the only people that fear him are criminals, and they have good reason

[Ghost Rider]

Yet once again Beast is loved as an Avenger...hated as a X-men.

He has had thought about whether or not should he remain an Avenger...because he is loved as one such.

Course they try the oldest of crap tricks and bad Avengers in the beginning of the newest series which makes no sense given the angle they were pursuing.

Marvel literally has a hang up with making Super-heroes outsiders who must been shunned while saving the ungrateful world almost as much as DC makes them loved yet watched.

[KK]

Damn I had a lot of typos. This pain medication is getting to me.