A possible way for the UFP to be a problem to the Empire

[Solauren]

Hello all.

First, if this is redudant, please feel free to politely let me know. The keywords I used for searching for this idea didn't produce any results of note.

Anyway....


Stupid Trekkie Theory that could actually work.

We all know about the 'Transport over a bomb to blow up the Star Destroyer' argument that rabid-and-uninformed-trekkies like to use. We also know how stupid that is, because you can't transport through shields except under very, very specific circumstances.

BUT

There is actually a way it COULD work.

Here are the details.

First: Star Wars evidence
In the X-wing game, the rebels blew up a Star Destroyer by planting a nuclear weapon on the ship in the hangar/cargo bay. The weapon exploded, and then the Star Destroyer went with it. We have no idea how big a yield the warhead has. It probably damaged the reactor and caused that to blow up, or detonated other systems or weapons. The point it, the Star Destroyer blew up. This is not surprising, because inside a starship, the weapon would have detonated in an atmosphere, with the resulting nuclear shockwave.

So, we know that a big explosion inside a Star Destroyer will rip it to pieces. This makes sense. It would be rather pointless after all, to armor the floor and walls with the same stuff as the outer hull. Not to mention expensive.

So, it's reasonable to assume that a Federation warhead, or several, it somehow smuggled onto a Star Destroyer, or beamed over, could do the same thing. After all, it's past all the combat armor and shields.

But, we all know that Federation transporters can't get through shields.

Okay, so how do we do it?

The rebels trick probably won't work. Starfleet would need to steal a shuttle, and blowing up just one Star Destroyer isn't going to slow down the Empire's invasion any.

So, how could Starfleet get the weapons on board a Star Destroyer?

A Transporter that goes through shields.

Do any such transporters or produceable by Federation Science exsist?

Yes.

Second: Star Trek evidence
TNG "Balance of Terror".
Terrorist were using a transporter method Wesley Crusher recognized from school, that the Federation abandoned because it damaged living tissue. LIVING tissue. It wasn't said either way about in-organic matter.

In fact, it would seem to have worked just fine on them. The Terrorist's weapons appeared unaffected by one or two trips through the device. What Wesley and the Enterprise-D crew called "Subspace Rebound Transport", or something like that. The terrorist called it a 'Invertor'.

Now, according to the TNG Tech Manual, which was still official at the time (and in my mind, always will be unless contradicted by on screen evidence. Why? Because Gene Roddenbury had a hand in it. Even if he just wrote the forward, I'm assuming he read the book first. If he didn't, he was a twit.), when a ship goes to Red Alert, the shields automatically raise unless ordered not to by the Captain.

When the terrorists started boarding, Pichard ordered a Red Alert. The shields should have gone up automatically. (If they did not, and Pichard didn't order it or Worf didn't raise them, they have been demoted to Voyager-writer level stupidity). Even with the shields up, the Terrorist transporter still went right though the shields, and the terrorist had no way of knowing shield frequency or operating proceedures etc for a Federation Ship. (Given the Enterprise was top of the line, stuff like that should be classified).
The terrorist even planted an explosive device on the warp core of the Enterprise to blow it up.
(Note to anyone wanting to board a Federation starship and blow it up. Send a suicide trooper and have him just blast the damn warp core, or use a bomb with a 5 second timer. Don't give the crew time to disarm it or beam it into space)

Since the 'Invertor' appears to go through shields, and the Federation was aware of the technology (either that, or Wesley was a master spy), I'd like to suggest this as a tactic.

Provided they had enough warning (i.e Conquest, at least two weeks), the Federation could create more of those devices (Wesley said the model he had studied was very close to the terrorists, so it should be on record in the Federation. IF not, well, sucks to be them) and fit them onto high capacity warheads (or a container with 1 pound of anti-mater, which ever produces the most explosive power), and then 'Transport' them over that way.

The only question is, will they get through Imperial shields?

It's arguable whether or not Imperial shields could stop a transporter using this method. I THINK the transporter in-question works by pushing matter entirely into Subspace, and then back out of it at the target destination. Basically true teleportation. I could be wrong, but that would explain the damage to living tissue.

If this is the case, we need to know how Imperial Shields work against Subspace technology. i.e Subspace messages.

Based on evidence from the movie, I'd have to say Subspace signals can get through Imperial shields. I based this on the 'asteroid scences' from "Empire Strikes Back."

During several of those scences, Vader was communicating with the commanding officers of other Imperial ships. Since the communication was real-time, they obviously were not using Radio. I base this on the fact that it was a search and capture operation. Having the ships close enough together to use radio for real time communication when searching an asteroid field the apparent size of Hoth's is just plain stupid. They had to be using subspace communication. (We know the Empire does use that, and most of the discussions here assume Imperial Subspace = Federation Subspace)

Since they were in an asteriod field, you'd have to assume they'd have there shields up. (Wouldn't you?) We didn't see Star Destroyer's leveling everything that was even remotely near there ships, just ones that posed a direct threat. If they didn't have there shields up, eventually all the little rocks hitting the ship would cause problems

It's reasonable to assume based on this evidence that subspace can penetrate Imperial shields.

(BTW First person to mention the idea of inventing Subspace Phasers gets a battleh across there back, followed by a lightsaber up the ass. Let's stick to exsisting technology)

In the end, it's reasonable to assume that 'Subspace Rebound Transport' could get through an Imperial ships shields. For the sack of argument, we could say each attempt has a 50/50 change of succeeding (since we can't really be sure, we don't have enough information for a clear yes or no)

So, there is a chance that a properly equipped Federation starship could fight and defeat a Star Destroyer, using rather dishonorable tactics. Provided the Federation ship doesn't get his first.

I guess that's what shuttles would be for....

Thoughts? If I am right, is this tactic variant feasible? Or is this a case of 'we don't know enough about the technologies'?

In the end, I will say this.

IF I am right*

Using this method, the Federation could probably hold off an assault by the Empire for a while, and probably inflict respectable causalities to them, if they 'Invertor' over warheads, explosives and other bombs. If the Invertors have better range then Turbolasers, they could inflict a lot of damage.

If they do not have better range then Turbolasers, it's a mute point, since the Star Destroyer will swiss cheese the Federation ship.

For this, I'm going to assume best case scenario: Invertors have better range then Turbolasers, and 10 Photon Torpedoes 'invertored' inside a Star Destroyer will blow it up. (Could be 1, could be 100).

We don't know how big the nuclear weapon the rebels used to blow up the Star Destroyer was. If it was 300 megatons (that's pretty massive for a nuke), then it would take about 10 Photon torpedoes to equal that based on the numbers I have seen on this board for Photon's.

This means that the Enterprise-D, using this method, could take out 25 Star Destroyers before the 26th turned it into expensive scrap (provided the anti-matter reactor exploding left scrap).

I don't know about you, but that sounds to me like, 1000 Federation starships could stop 25,000 Star Destroyers (if they had enough torpedoes).

Yes, it is a technobabble solution, but it's one supported by on screen evidence.

A possible way for the Federation to stand up to the Empire....

To bad they have to hide behind a curtain to do it.

Well, that's that, thoughts? Hole pointing-out? Remember, I did say 'IF' I am right.

Oh, please, point out holes or evidence either way.

[NecronLord]

Imperial shields extend into Hyper and subspace (as they must be lowered to use the holonet) Thus it fails.

[YT300000]

Ouch. All that typing for a one line rebuttal.

[Rye]

You could pretend to surrender then attempt the "Poe maneuvre" as he said in the other thread, once they send a shuttle to board you.

[Ted C]

So, how could Starfleet get the weapons on board a Star Destroyer?

A Transporter that goes through shields.

Do any such transporters or produceable by Federation Science exsist?

Yes.

Second: Star Trek evidence
TNG "Balance of Terror".

I assume you actually mean "The High Ground", which demonstrated the capabilities of the Rutian "Inverter" device.

Terrorist were using a transporter method Wesley Crusher recognized from school, that the Federation abandoned because it damaged living tissue. LIVING tissue. It wasn't said either way about in-organic matter.

The Rutian inverter supposedly moved objects "interdimensionally". This kind of transport caused long-term cellular damage with repeated use. It would presumably damage anything with repeated use, but you're talking about one-shot uses of the system to deploy bombs, so that's irrelevant.

Now, according to the TNG Tech Manual, which was still official at the time (and in my mind, always will be unless contradicted by on screen evidence. Why? Because Gene Roddenbury had a hand in it. Even if he just wrote the forward, I'm assuming he read the book first. If he didn't, he was a twit.), when a ship goes to Red Alert, the shields automatically raise unless ordered not to by the Captain.

I think it goes without saying that the Enterprise had it's shields up at least after the first boarding action by the Ensata terrorists. We can therefore conclude that Federation shields cannot prevent "inverter" transport.

Since the 'Invertor' appears to go through shields, and the Federation was aware of the technology (either that, or Wesley was a master spy), I'd like to suggest this as a tactic.

Provided they had enough warning (i.e Conquest, at least two weeks), the Federation could create more of those devices (Wesley said the model he had studied was very close to the terrorists, so it should be on record in the Federation. IF not, well, sucks to be them) and fit them onto high capacity warheads (or a container with 1 pound of anti-mater, which ever produces the most explosive power), and then 'Transport' them over that way.

The Rutian Inverter involved a very large mechanism in the Ensata terrorist base as well as small devices worn by the terrorists themselves. Presumably you mean to install the central system on a starship and place the mobile units on bombs.

The only question is, will they get through Imperial shields?

It's arguable whether or not Imperial shields could stop a transporter using this method. I THINK the transporter in-question works by pushing matter entirely into Subspace, and then back out of it at the target destination. Basically true teleportation. I could be wrong, but that would explain the damage to living tissue.

It supposedly moves matter through another "dimension". It's perfectly predictable that this system would bypass Federation shields; virtually any unknown technology (like Dominion polaron beams) can bypass Federation shields.

If this is the case, we need to know how Imperial Shields work against Subspace technology. i.e Subspace messages.

It's not entirely certain whether the Inverter moves matter through subspace. If it does, Imperial shields are known to interfere with subspace communication, so they may well interfere with the operation of the inverter as well.

Based on evidence from the movie, I'd have to say Subspace signals can get through Imperial shields. I based this on the 'asteroid scenes' from "Empire Strikes Back."

During several of those scenes, Vader was communicating with the commanding officers of other Imperial ships. Since the communication was real-time, they obviously were not using Radio.

Why couldn't they be using radio? The ships were often within line of sight of each other. One time when they weren't (during Vader's holoconference), one of the ships in the fleet took substantial damage from an asteroid hit that we might normally expect it's shields to handle, indicating it may have had its shields down for the conference.

Since they were in an asteriod field, you'd have to assume they'd have there shields up. (Wouldn't you?)

Under normal circumstances, yes, but when the Dark Lord of the Sith says he wants a holoconference, you tell the gunners to work overtime and drop the shields to allow clear communications.

Thoughts? If I am right, is this tactic variant feasible? Or is this a case of 'we don't know enough about the technologies'?

Let's just say I classify this tactic as "worth a try", assuming you can design, construct, test, and deploy the inverter devices in a reasonable time frame. Getting such devices into the field would realistically require months or years, not just a couple of weeks.

You also still have to deal with issues of range and targeting. The Enterprise was in geosynchronous orbit over the Rutian capital, so it wasn't exactly a difficult target. The Ensata "transmitter" was stationary on the planet surface, not mounted on a starship maneuvering as hard as it could to avoid overwhelmingly powerful enemy fire.

While the technology has potential, we have no indication that the Federation has pursued it in any way, and it would not be feasible to get it into action on short notice.

[FaxModem1]

A well thought out theoroy, but sadly, the federation are too high minded to ever do such a thing(then again, if there is a Shadow fleet or if Section 31 has some ships, it could happen)

[Solauren]

So, this falls into the 'feasible to try given time'.

I guess that's the problem with most rabid-trekkie debaters, no sense of humor.

I agree, this is a pretty 'iffy' tactic. IF it works, it would be devastating. If it just uses subspace, Imperial shields can block it (thanks on that by the way).

However, if its another dimension all together (or a Realm of Subspace Imperial shields do not block, like say a Transwarp domain) then it has a chance.

Wow, I might have breathed a little life into possible Trek vs Wars scenarios.

Oh, for the maneveruing point....

Yeah, that could be a problem. It would need testing and development.

I can definately see Section 31 using this tactic after an occupation however...

[Howedar]

IF it works, it would be devastating.

Not really. It would give the Federation the ability to get one-hit kills on Imperial ships, evening the firepower and shielding playing field. However, the Empire would still have a massive numerical advantage.

[BabelHuber]

A countermeasure could be to have Interdictors around.

Interdictors should be able to prevent a Federation vessel to create a warp field, so they could be used to prevent subspace transporters. Besides it shouldn´t be an easy task to beam while you are heavily jammed.

[Darth Wong]

I agree, this is a pretty 'iffy' tactic. IF it works, it would be devastating. If it just uses subspace, Imperial shields can block it (thanks on that by the way).

The Rutian device was stated onscreen to use subspace. And even without shields, it's doubtful that they can transport through the hull of an ISD, given the uselessness of subspace sensors and comms through heavy metals.

[justifier]

I agree, this is a pretty 'iffy' tactic. IF it works, it would be devastating. If it just uses subspace, Imperial shields can block it (thanks on that by the way).

The Rutian device was stated onscreen to use subspace. And even without shields, it's doubtful that they can transport through the hull of an ISD, given the uselessness of subspace sensors and comms through heavy metals.

But do sensors really matter? All that counts is getting the warhead inside the ISD. It would still be difficult in though because I think that shields would block them inverter. So if shields can be taken down(even partially) by some other means then this could work

[NecronLord]

This whole plan relies on the empire actually boarding them...

[LordShaithis]

Generic Imperial Officer: Ouch, they've blown up six Star Destroyers this week! The little barbarians! Let's BDZ Vulcan to show them what for.

[CJvR]

The best way for Starfleet to cause problems for the Imperials...

Scrap the entire fleet and use the materials to build a tempel for worshiping Q with the Admirals and captains as the priests, the enlisted redshirts as brainwashed followers and Admiral Janeway as the virgin sacrifice.

I would say the odds of winning with that method would be much greater than actually fighting.

[Jawawithagun]

Live sacrifice, blood, or do we burn her?

[Darth Wong]

I agree, this is a pretty 'iffy' tactic. IF it works, it would be devastating. If it just uses subspace, Imperial shields can block it (thanks on that by the way).

The Rutian device was stated onscreen to use subspace. And even without shields, it's doubtful that they can transport through the hull of an ISD, given the uselessness of subspace sensors and comms through heavy metals.

But do sensors really matter? All that counts is getting the warhead inside the ISD. It would still be difficult in though because I think that shields would block them inverter. So if shields can be taken down(even partially) by some other means then this could work

You're missing the point. If sensor transmissions won't pass through heavy metals, why would any other form of subspace mass/energy be presumed to pass through heavy metals?

[Sea Skimmer]

IF it works, it would be devastating.

Not really. It would give the Federation the ability to get one-hit kills on Imperial ships, evening the firepower and shielding playing field. However, the Empire would still have a massive numerical advantage.

Not to mention it could simply send wings of hyperspace capable fighters to win the war in hours.

[Ted C]

So, this falls into the 'feasible to try given time'.

Time which the Federation is unlikely to have, which drags the feasibility down even more.

I agree, this is a pretty 'iffy' tactic. IF it works, it would be devastating.

Maybe, maybe not. Federation ships equipped with inverters will still need to be in a position to confront Imperial task forces. Remember that the Empire has vastly superior strategic mobility; the Federation can't effectively repond to their fleet movements. Even if this becomes and effective ship-to-ship weapon, will they really be able to keep Imperial fleets from devastating Federation planets? What planets do the Feds choose to protect, and which do they leave to their own devices? What are the political consequences of these decisions?

At best, it would seem that they can just inflict some losses on the Imperial fleet, while the Imperials will be destroying population centers and infrastructure. The Empire can afford the losses; the Federation can't.

If it just uses subspace, Imperial shields can block it (thanks on that by the way).

However, if its another dimension all together (or a Realm of Subspace Imperial shields do not block, like say a Transwarp domain) then it has a chance.

Please don't invoke technobabble like "Transwarp domains"!

Wow, I might have breathed a little life into possible Trek vs Wars scenarios.

Not much.

Oh, for the maneveruing point....

Yeah, that could be a problem. It would need testing and development.

Yes, months or years. Furthermore, Federation security leaves a lot to be desired, so it's likely that their opponents would be working on countermeasures before the Feds could get a prototype onto a ship.

I can definately see Section 31 using this tactic after an occupation however...

Even a black ops organization like Section 31 needs resources to pursue a project like this. They won't be getting a lot of resources under Imperial occupation.

[Thunderfire]

Hmm youa re looking for
A possible way for the UFP to be a problem to the Empire.
Very easy - all they have to do is to join the empire.

[CaptJodan]

You're missing the point. If sensor transmissions won't pass through heavy metals, why would any other form of subspace mass/energy be presumed to pass through heavy metals?

Not only that, but if sensor transmissions won't make it past the shields, there's no way to target your bomb on the correct coordinates inside the ship. There's a large possiblity you might transport it between a bulkhead, or in a non-vital area (naturally, with a nuke, close works), making your weapon useless, as I imagine phasing matter into other matter can't be healthy for the bomb in question.

[Soulman]

One tactic could be to use cloaked ships (which I think can still use transporters) to beam large quantities of antimatter onto Imperial ships. I don't imagine that Imperial shps leave shields on all of the time, to let shuttles board they must be drooped and I don't imagine it doing shield generators any good.

Of course this assumes that:
a) ST cloaks are effective against SW ships and
b) Normal jamming won't screw up the targetting sensors on the transporters.

[Slartibartfast]

Make thousands of clones of Picard or Janeway and try to get them into an ISD, either by smuggling them in boxes or surrendering or asking for transportation. Soon, most if not all of these ships will be suck into technobabble singularities, destroyed by quantum leap strings, or eaten by giant subspace monsters.

[Solauren]

Back on topic people....

Okay, since we know scanning for a place would be a pain in the ass (without good intelligence, which they are not likely to have)... assuming the Invertor tech could get through the armor (i.e different subspace realm that doesn't have matter limitations, or something like that. Just insert technobabble that makes sense), why not just 'beam' over like 10 photons all over the place. Odds are one of them should not materialize in a bulkhead or some place it could explode.

Or fit them (if possible, I don't think it is) with a Phase Cloak and mini engines so when they arrive, they move out of any solid mass and go 'boom'

It's a workable stratergy, just got bugs to work out

[CJvR]

Rather pointless to build such sophisticated devices Solauren. Use anti-matter then it wont matter where it materializes since it will react with any matter present. It will also be much less sensitive to jamming, who cares how badly twisted the stuff gets, as long as it is still anti-matter when it materializes it should get the job done. We are talking about blowing stuff up not the rather more delicate operation of reassembling a living being.

[Ted C]

Back on topic people....

Okay, since we know scanning for a place would be a pain in the ass (without good intelligence, which they are not likely to have)... assuming the Invertor tech could get through the armor (i.e different subspace realm that doesn't have matter limitations, or something like that. Just insert technobabble that makes sense), why not just 'beam' over like 10 photons all over the place. Odds are one of them should not materialize in a bulkhead or some place it could explode.

To follow up CJvR, you can beam photon torpedoes over anywhere inside the target and they'll work fine. If it materializes inside a bulkhead, the containment system around the anti-matter charge will fail and the device will detonate anyway.

Or fit them (if possible, I don't think it is) with a Phase Cloak and mini engines so when they arrive, they move out of any solid mass and go 'boom'

Yet another technology they would need to start researching again (virtually from scratch; you don't really think the Romulans let them keep the prototype, do you?), with its own development, testing, and deployment curve. You're just making your task more difficult.