Ontario residents: Who would you vote for?

[Hobot]

Please explain your vote.

[MKSheppard]

Howard Hampton, because NDP sounds way too much like NSDAP

[Col. Crackpot]

Howard Hampton, because NDP sounds way too much like NSDAP

Shep, you do know that the NDP is a socialist party, riiiiight?

[Icehawk]

Im voting McGuinty. I refuse to vote for the ultra leftist NDP and the the Eves conservatives have fucked around with our province for long enough.

[Next of Kin]

McGuinty comes across as a weak leader. I won't vote for the NDP because that would be throwing away a perfectly good vote. I haven't voted for the conservatives in 9 years and won't again. I don't know who else is available.

[Hobot]

I don't know if voting for the NDP would be throwing your vote away. I think they're very popular with teachers and I this summer will help out the NDP's vote. There will most likely be a lot of black and brown outs, rising electricity costs, a large number of smog days, and maybe another health crisis with the West Nile Virus.

The NDP plans on reversing the privatization of power distrubution, which was a stupid decision to begin with when you look at what happened with the deregulation of essential services in England and recently in California. A public system will reduce bills and improve organization. They are very environmentally aware and that's just what we need if we're to deal with southern Ontario's pollution problems. In addition, they value health and education highly which have been shot to hell thanks to the Conservatives over the better part of the last decade. SARS has really hilighted the poor condition our health care system is in. We have to do something about it soon because our population is getting older and are getting more and more vulnerable to infectious diseases.

I really think the NDP is the best choice and I hope to convince other people. We really need to think about the future; education, health care and the environment have been either ignored or attacked by the Conservatives. These issues will become more and more important in the next decade and we'll be screwed if we don't do something about them now.

[Hobot]

I know there are more Ontario residents than that here...

[Darth Wong]

I don't know if voting for the NDP would be throwing your vote away. I think they're very popular with teachers and I this summer will help out the NDP's vote. There will most likely be a lot of black and brown outs, rising electricity costs, a large number of smog days, and maybe another health crisis with the West Nile Virus.

And you think the NDP will solve this problem? They are utterly incompetent; the last time they were in power, they almost ran the province into the ground. Remember Bob Rae saying "we will spend our way out of this recession?" When they got into power, they actually asked Ontario Hydro's management how feasible it would be to shut off all the province's nuclear power plants overnight. Fucking morons. All they're good at is screeching that you can solve any problem by throwing more money at the people responsible for it.

The NDP plans on reversing the privatization of power distrubution, which was a stupid decision to begin with when you look at what happened with the deregulation of essential services in England and recently in California. A public system will reduce bills and improve organization. They are very environmentally aware and that's just what we need if we're to deal with southern Ontario's pollution problems.

I'm not a big fan of power deregulation either, but the conservatives are already moving to reregulate certain aspects of that system, and frankly, I was working for Hydro when those NDP fuckers unleashed their shitstorm of ignorance last time, and I can say with complete confidence that they're retards who I wouldn't trust with a lawnmower, never mind public utilities.

In addition, they value health and education highly which have been shot to hell thanks to the Conservatives over the better part of the last decade. SARS has really hilighted the poor condition our health care system is in. We have to do something about it soon because our population is getting older and are getting more and more vulnerable to infectious diseases.

And you figure that promising to throw piles of money at the problem will fix everything? That's what the NDP will do, followed by an about-face when they realize what the money just isn't there. Remember Bob Rae. The disrespect paid to nurses is a festering problem with the medical system that predates the conservative government by decades, and the SARS outbreak was caused by negligence and stupidity, not a lack of funding.

I really think the NDP is the best choice and I hope to convince other people. We really need to think about the future; education, health care and the environment have been either ignored or attacked by the Conservatives. These issues will become more and more important in the next decade and we'll be screwed if we don't do something about them now.

You're buying into NDP bullshit. What we need in the education system is more accountability, not even more highly paid teachers. Teachers already get paid >$60000 per year despite a 2.5 month vacation and shitloads of extra holidays during the year, and they are utterly unaccountable to the parents they supposedly serve. Just try getting rid of a shitty teacher and see how difficult it is.

The NDP, if it got into power, would merely make a shitload of promises that do not solve anything and have no effect but to raise taxes. Teachers should be barred from striking through legislative means, the two school boards should be consolidated, the principals should be forcibly de-unionized and made accountable for school performance and parent complaints, and funding guidelines must be laid down at the provincial level to keep school boards spending their money on important things like books and facilities. The teachers always whine about not having enough money for school supplies and books, but every time they go on strike, they ask for more SALARY, not more money for supplies and books. In their last strike, they were given a choice between higher salaries and layoffs or lower salaries and no layoffs (but smaller class sizes), and guess which one they picked. They are not thinking of our children; they are thinking of their own pocketbooks, despite all of their bullshit rhetoric.

The conservatives have been under attack by the media and useless tits like Dalton McGuinty since they got into power (the fucker has no platform whatsoever except "I hate the conservatives and will say anything it takes to smear them and try to get into power"), and the bullshit campaign seems to be working.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

NDP? *Bursts out laughing*
Liberals? Like hell!
Tories? Fuck no, bastards hate barbacues!

[Solauren]

Since I work for the Ontario Government, I feel I am uniquely qualified to answer this.

(If you must know, I work in the Ministry of Finance, hunting down Retail and Corperate Tax cheats and sending them off to be nailed to the wall. Onfortunately, we lack the needed people to nail them all to the wall before they disappear. Oh well, not my problem)

From a government employee point of view, the "Progressive Conservative" party is probably the best. They have expanding government infulstructure to make the government run smoothly. This has worked to a degree depending on the ministry involved, and sometimes a given branch. For example, the IT branch at work takes forever to get anything done (and I humuliate them by doing something they say would take there team 2 months to do in about 6 days...). The problem within the ministry's are the people that have been there for 20 years and can not be fired because of the union and so don't give a flying fuck anymore.

Now then, from a voter point of view.

Liberals: You HAVE to be kidding me. After finding out how much money the Federal liberals have wasted and allowed to be wasted (i.e Billion dollars on a 1 million dollar registry, the person in charge of privacy spending 500,000 a year on lunches, etc), I wouldn't deliberatly vote for them if my life depended on it.

NDP: I couldn't get a job for 6 years becomes of there 'equal rights" employement crap. Alot of places locally just quit hiring, because if they hired a skilled white kid over a non-skilled non-white kid, they were risking problems. This happened after a few lawsuits trying to use that job happened.

Conservatives: No one likes them because they did exactly what they said they will do. They cut welfare and other wasteful social programs. By wasteful I mean the programs that were abused or didn't make sense, and they wouldn't back down from unions that had an overinflated opinion of there importance.


I can best outline how I feel about it by using teachers and education as an example
Small Classroom populationss: I think having smaller classrooms at younger grades is a good idea, or at least more teachers in the classrooms. How to do this is hire more teachers by paying them better.

Teachers and Extra-Circicular Activities: Teachers shouldn't HAVE to do it. However, if they do, the school board should provide a way for them to do it and still handle there marking/teaching duties. Either that, or let parents run after-school activities with staff supervision.

Number of Hours in the Classroom: I think another 30 minutes in the classroom is a good idea. Just let the smart kids that get bored read or listen to music or something.
If teachers don't like longer hours, figure out how much they make be hour, and raise there pay accordingly. That is NOT a easy job.

Teacher Competance Testing: Yup. Do it. Make them get there liscenced renewed (for free) every so often, and if they get enough complaints, a review might be in order.

Teacher Accountablility: Yes, but limited. First, find out if the parents are helping with the kids studies. If not, no accountability.
Also, testing and marking should be done by teachers not in that classroom, so they can't pad points. Professional 'markers' would be a good idea. That way you don't have teachers fudging marks just to make themselves look goods. Hey, it could happen.

This would let the school boards monitor a teacher, based on evaluations of the students and there amrks. I don't think a teacher should get in trouble if a kid refuses to learn, or can't learn the material for some reason. (i.e the Kid has a learning problem)

The Conservatives internal goals are fairly close to this. I know, because my grandmother has been asked a few times to run for her riding in Pickering by the Conservatives. They stopped asking shorlty after she remarried about 8 years ago, but she still is on excellent terms with the current MMP in her riding.

Also, because of my job, I've meet several the the more 'famous' politications (Mike Harris is a class act, Eves seems like a smart guy, just a on the slow and goofy side. Janet Ecker used to work at one of the offices I pass heading towards my desk in the morning, and i always found her to be pleasant when I talked to her before or after branch meetings, if a bit idealistic.)

However, I would like to see Reform get in in Ontario and do a good job. partially because I want to see some new bosses around work, and partiall because the other groups are so bad with money, it's insultingly funny.

Sure, no government is perfect with money, but the Liberals and NDP.... Well, I'm sure if they were held accountable as a party, they'd only be half as bad.

[Hobot]

The problem with making teachers work longer hours is that they have less time to prepare which often means that more time is wasted than not. I have personally experienced this in high school, it's really frustrating.

I don't think making classes longer is a good idea either. My classes in high school were about 80 minutes or so. At best, about 60% of that time was put to good use. An extra half hour would lead to mass suicides by students overcome by boredom.

[aerius]

Other than Hydro deregulation I really have no complaints with the Tory government. I've held several well paying jobs including a government one at Canada Customs, the taxes I'm paying haven't gone up, and contrary to what the media panic would have one believe the health care system isn't falling apart. Waits for x-rays, emergency rooms, MRI's, and other tests have actually gone down a lot from when the NDP was in power. If I dislocate my shoulder now I'll be admitted almost instantly instead of waiting 2 hours like I did ~10 years ago. Need stitches? Before I had to wait about 3 hours while bleeding all over the waiting room. My last visit to the hospital about a month ago to have glass picked out of my arm took me under an hour total. I can't really complain things as they are so the PC gets my vote.

[Icehawk]

The teachers always whine about not having enough money for school supplies and books, but every time they go on strike, they ask for more SALARY, not more money for supplies and books. In their last strike, they were given a choice between higher salaries and layoffs or lower salaries and no layoffs (but smaller class sizes), and guess which one they picked. They are not thinking of our children; they are thinking of their own pocketbooks, despite all of their bullshit rhetoric.

Holy fuck Mike could you have possibly made a more hasty generalization? The strike was much more than a cry for salaries. "Not thinking of our children?" Do you have any damned clue what its like to be a teacher? Most teachers have families and children of their own to look after as well as having to look after and teach yours for 175 days of the year (thats not including the 30-40 additional UNPAYED days throughout the year they have to work through class preparation, management and report cards. Fuck out of all the people here I never would have expected you to be so ignorant.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Other than Hydro deregulation I really have no complaints with the Tory government. I've held several well paying jobs including a government one at Canada Customs, the taxes I'm paying haven't gone up, and contrary to what the media panic would have one believe the health care system isn't falling apart. Waits for x-rays, emergency rooms, MRI's, and other tests have actually gone down a lot from when the NDP was in power. If I dislocate my shoulder now I'll be admitted almost instantly instead of waiting 2 hours like I did ~10 years ago. Need stitches? Before I had to wait about 3 hours while bleeding all over the waiting room. My last visit to the hospital about a month ago to have glass picked out of my arm took me under an hour total. I can't really complain things as they are so the PC gets my vote.

Do you trust someone who thinks not barbacueing but having food delivered IN A CAR reduces smog emissions?

[Darth Wong]

The problem with making teachers work longer hours is that they have less time to prepare which often means that more time is wasted than not. I have personally experienced this in high school, it's really frustrating.

Compare their hours to those of people in the private sector with comparable wages and benefits and then tell me that.

[Darth Wong]

Holy fuck Mike could you have possibly made a more hasty generalization? The strike was much more than a cry for salaries.

Funny thing, then, that salary promises ended the strike.

"Not thinking of our children?" Do you have any damned clue what its like to be a teacher? Most teachers have families and children of their own to look after as well as having to look after and teach yours for 175 days of the year (thats not including the 30-40 additional UNPAYED days throughout the year they have to work through class preparation, management and report cards. Fuck out of all the people here I never would have expected you to be so ignorant.

Blow me. Compare a teacher's salary and benefits to those of a typical private-sector worker, stop bullshitting about the 30-40 unpaid full days of extra work (some of my relatives are teachers), and try dealing with a teacher as a parent, and you'll quickly find out just how much they actually care about your child's welfare.

Oh boo hoo, some teachers shell out $40 per month for school supplies out of their own pocketbooks! A typical auto mechanic shells out THOUSANDS OF FUCKING DOLLARS FOR HIS OWN TOOLS, AND TAKES SKILLS UPDATE TRAINING ON HIS OWN FUCKING TIME, you sanctimonious leech-apologist.

The truly good teachers are rare, and the bad ones get paid just as well as the good ones. They use our children as fucking bargaining chips for their own salaries, and you have bought into their rhetoric.

[Icehawk]

Funny thing, then, that salary promises ended the strike.

Just which strike are you talking about here? The one im thinking of is the huge one back in 97 when Harris was in power (along with the education minister who didn't even have a highschool diploma) and the teachers got NOTHING out of it and went back to work because they had too. It was about the unfair piece of legislation (Bill 160) which gave the tories complete sweeping control over public education without having to bring any of the changes they planned to make to parliment for debate or vote of any kind. In short, Harris and the tories wanted to fuck with public education and that bill gave them the ability to do it.

Blow me. Compare a teacher's salary and benefits to those of a typical private-sector worker, stop bullshitting about the 30-40 unpaid full days of extra work (some of my relatives are teachers), and try dealing with a teacher as a parent, and you'll quickly find out just how much they actually care about your child's welfare.

Thats horseshit Mike. Just what sort of education do these "typical private sector workers" have? I have a friend who's father only took some short college course after highschool and then went on to form a multimillion dollar company of his own. With 5 years post secondary education (what is mandatory for teachers) I could easily see myself making double the salary teachers get by working in the private sector. The 30+ unpaid days of extra work is a fact (my mother and father and many of their friends are teachers). And your always going to come across a few unreasonable teachers or ones you disagree with (I certainly have). But the fact is most teachers spend hundreds of dollars every year out of their own pocket on top of their normal bills and family expendatures to suppliment their classes and resources in effort to provide a good learning environment. Why? because they love what they do and care for their students.

Oh boo hoo, some teachers shell out $40 per month for school supplies out of their own pocketbooks! A typical auto mechanic shells out THOUSANDS OF FUCKING DOLLARS FOR HIS OWN TOOLS, AND TAKES SKILLS UPDATE TRAINING ON HIS OWN FUCKING TIME, you sanctimonious leech-apologist.

Teachers also shell out money to take courses yearly for updating their knowledge and skills dumbass. Teachers, do their work, go home, then do MORE schoolwork on top of looking after their OWN FUCKING FAMILIES AND CHILDREN (yes Mike, teachers have families and children of their own to raise and look after in case you didn't know). Oh and by the way, when was the last time you volunteered to help in your childs classroom for a few hours? This might give you a better perspective of what its like to manage a room full of whiny children with many different learning abilities, behavior problems, and social and emotional issues, as well as the occasional (and continually growing) number of abonoxious and ignorant parents trying to make pathetic excuses for poor little billy.

The truly good teachers are rare, and the bad ones get paid just as well as the good ones. They use our children as fucking bargaining chips for their own salaries, and you have bought into their rhetoric.

*sigh* No Mike, you seem to have bought into the into the idea of using teachers as a skapegoat and have decided to generalize all teachers under the category of the few which you have unfortunatly had bad expieriences with. The fact is most teachers are skilled, and trained educaters who pour their lives into their work, love their students, and have to deal with their own family issues as well as a classroom full of others on a day to day basis, and in more recent years have had to deal with ignorance and idiotic decisions from the provincial government and from people like you.

[Darth Wong]

Funny thing, then, that salary promises ended the strike.

Just which strike are you talking about here?

The one which just happened last year. They go on strike or work-to-rule every damned year, after all.

The one im thinking of is the huge one back in 97 when Harris was in power (along with the education minister who didn't even have a highschool diploma) and the teachers got NOTHING out of it and went back to work because they had too. It was about the unfair piece of legislation (Bill 160) which gave the tories complete sweeping control over public education without having to bring any of the changes they planned to make to parliment for debate or vote of any kind. In short, Harris and the tories wanted to fuck with public education and that bill gave them the ability to do it.

God forbid there might be some democracy in the public education system, rather than appointed psychocrats running the show .

Blow me. Compare a teacher's salary and benefits to those of a typical private-sector worker, stop bullshitting about the 30-40 unpaid full days of extra work (some of my relatives are teachers), and try dealing with a teacher as a parent, and you'll quickly find out just how much they actually care about your child's welfare.

Thats horseshit Mike. Just what sort of education do these "typical private sector workers" have? I have a friend who's father only took some short college course after highschool and then went on to form a multimillion dollar company of his own.

Anecdotal bullshit. The standard in the private sector is nowhere near the true compensation of teachers of equivalent education, once pension, benefits, and vacation time are factored into their salaries. Or do you think you can convince anyone that your friend's father is somehow typical?

With 5 years post secondary education (what is mandatory for teachers) I could easily see myself making double the salary teachers get by working in the private sector.

That's because you are young and ignorant. The salary and benefits of a teacher are much higher than they are for most people with their education.

The 30+ unpaid days of extra work is a fact (my mother and father and many of their friends are teachers).

And the fact that they might do extra work on 30 days does not mean they work 30 actual full days. Moreover, they get a huge number of extra holidays during the year, and they even get paid for sick days if they don't take them. Do you think I get paid when I call in sick, dumb-ass? Do you think I get PD days? Do you think I get a 2.5 month vacation in the summer? Do you think I get a bonus if I don't call in sick all year? Do you think I have a pension with a present-value over a million dollars waiting for me? What do you know about the private sector, jack-ass?

And your always going to come across a few unreasonable teachers or ones you disagree with (I certainly have). But the fact is most teachers spend hundreds of dollars every year out of their own pocket on top of their normal bills and family expendatures to suppliment their classes and resources in effort to provide a good learning environment. Why? because they love what they do and care for their students.

Your mommy and daddy told you this, no doubt. I see you are basing all of your conclusions on a lifetime of family indoctrination.

Oh boo hoo, some teachers shell out $40 per month for school supplies out of their own pocketbooks! A typical auto mechanic shells out THOUSANDS OF FUCKING DOLLARS FOR HIS OWN TOOLS, AND TAKES SKILLS UPDATE TRAINING ON HIS OWN FUCKING TIME, you sanctimonious leech-apologist.

Teachers also shell out money to take courses yearly for updating their knowledge and skills dumbass.

Don't be an idiot; teachers take the minimum that the province requires them to take, and it does not remotely compare to the kind of skills training required of private sector workers such as programmers or even auto mechanics.

Teachers, do their work, go home, then do MORE schoolwork on top of looking after their OWN FUCKING FAMILIES AND CHILDREN (yes Mike, teachers have families and children of their own to raise and look after in case you didn't know).

Oh wow, but people in the private sector DON'T have families and children? What the fuck are you smoking, dumb-ass? Anything you can say about teachers I can say about private-sector workers, but in greater proportion.

Oh and by the way, when was the last time you volunteered to help in your childs classroom for a few hours?

Last week, asshole. My wife volunteered one day every week throughout the entire school year, and at the end of the year the teachers gave her a $5 pen to show their "appreciation".

They used to hold a little party, but now they're "working to rule".

This might give you a better perspective of what its like to manage a room full of whiny children with many different learning abilities, behavior problems, and social and emotional issues, as well as the occasional (and continually growing) number of abonoxious and ignorant parents trying to make pathetic excuses for poor little billy.

And all of that bullshit is no worse than the kind of bullshit you have to put up with in an office, except that you get nowhere near the benefits, nowhere near the pension, and ... oh yeah, you can get FIRED for being incompetent, rather than appealing to an ironclad union which can keep you from losing your job unless you kill somebody.

*sigh* No Mike, you seem to have bought into the into the idea of using teachers as a skapegoat and have decided to generalize all teachers under the category of the few which you have unfortunatly had bad expieriences with.

No, the salary, benefits, and pension plan of teachers are public knowledge, fully documented, and are grossly out of proportion to their level of work. A teacher's work day is so fucking short that if he DIDN'T put in two extra hours every day, it would be an even bigger ripoff than it is. Every when I used to drive by the local high school in the morning, the parking lot was empty. Every day when I came home, the parking lot was empty. They start the day an hour later than everyone else and end it an hour earlier than everyone else.

The fact is most teachers are skilled, and trained educaters who pour their lives into their work, love their students, and have to deal with their own family issues as well as a classroom full of others on a day to day basis, and in more recent years have had to deal with ignorance and idiotic decisions from the provincial government and from people like you.

Maybe your words would have more impact if you actually had some experience of what life is like in the private sector, instead of parroting your parents' bullshit which is completely uninformed because it comes from people who have never really left school.

I know engineers who have become teachers. They NEVER EVER complain because they know how much tougher it is in the private sector. It's the ignoramuses like you and most teachers who have never held any other job, who have no knowledge whatsoever of how the private sector works, who spread this bullshit about how tough teachers' jobs are.

PS. I notice you never even attempted to refute my point about the enormous capital expenditures of a typical auto mechanic compared to those of a typical whiny teacher. And auto mechanics don't take out commercials to demand that the taxpayers make their lives easier.

I've known some good teachers. Not surprisingly, they often disagree with the union. Any teacher who spouts the union line is a leech.

[Nova Andromeda]

--Mr. Wong (should I call you Mike now since I've been an annoyance for so long?) why don't you become a teacher? Would it involve a significant pay cut or is it something you would hate? You could still do all sorts of jobs on the side for extra cash and you could easily become a principle probably which pays even more money than a teacher's job.
-The reason I ask is because I think "free thinkers" could make a real impact on education by becoming teachers. However, I don't see many of them opting for the job despite its obvious benefits. As for myself, I've managed to get myself into the science black hole where you think you'll go into the private sector and make lots of money, but the pull of science is just too great. For me, the appeal of really fancy toys like electron microscopes and pushing the edge of scientific knowledge is irresistable...

[aerius]

Other than unionized fulltime Customs & postal workers, I can't think of a job where people are as unaccountable to the public as teachers are in Ontario. Other than a sex scandal with underage students, I know of no way for a teacher here to get fired. Teach nothing in class all year and have nearly all your students flunk the next grade? No problem, happened to my class and the teacher still kept his job. Give predetermined marks for all the students based on initial impressions of them and throw out all test & assignment marks? He got to keep his job too. An english teacher passing every single person in the class even though 5 of them obviously couldn't speak, write, nor understand a single fucking sentence? Yup, he kept his job too. And this is only one school, mine, think about how many schools there are in Ontario. Anyone displaying this much gross incompetance in a private sector job would have their asses fired and most likely have lawsuits filed against them.

As for why I compare it to unionized fulltime Customs & Postal workers? There was a drug ring being run out of the Canada Customs sorting building in Mississauga where employees were taking home the drugs from confiscated shipments and selling them on the black market. Made a few million bucks doing it too. When they got busted Customs fired them, but their union somehow got their jobs back and Customs was forced to re-hire them.

[Darth Wong]

--Mr. Wong (should I call you Mike now since I've been an annoyance for so long?) why don't you become a teacher? Would it involve a significant pay cut or is it something you would hate?

That's a good question; I've actually considered it, but you have to take a year off and go to teacher's college where they basically bullshit you for money (some of my dorm mates became teachers, and confirmed that teacher's college is pretty useless; one recounted an anecdote about being made to sit cross-legged on a mat and listen to someone reading children's stories to her, so she could "appreciate the child's point of view").

You could still do all sorts of jobs on the side for extra cash and you could easily become a principle probably which pays even more money than a teacher's job.

Not with my refusal to play politics

-The reason I ask is because I think "free thinkers" could make a real impact on education by becoming teachers. However, I don't see many of them opting for the job despite its obvious benefits.

Part of the problem (a very real part) is that it's a one-way trip. Teachers never go do anything else, for two reasons: 1) many of them don't know how to function outside of that environment, since they've literally been in it since childhood, and 2) nobody wants to hire them, because they can't or won't put in a hard day's work.

Free-thinkers like to, well, be free. And the notion of deliberately taking a permanent one-way trip, even if it's quite lucrative, may be unattractive to a lot of people.

[Darth Wong]

By the way, the Conservatives have been the victims of constant dishonest smear campaigns. Take the "private school tax credit" shit-storm for example. Everyone's screaming that the Tories are taking money out of public education and putting it into private education. They're equating it to a voucher system, and arguing that it will further stratify class distinctions and weaken the public education system which is crucial to a workable democracy.

However, when you dig into it, you discover that it's all a pile of bullshit. Not one dime is being taken out of public education to pay for private schools under this scheme. Peoples' property taxes still go to public school boards, just as they always did. The only difference is that people who send their kids to private schools get a tax break on the tuition, which is eminently reasonable.

This is just one example of the many bullshit lies being flung about by Dalton McBullshit and his mud factory. In fact, Dalton McBullshit's only real platform seems to be his hatred of the Conservatives. Look at all the screaming over presenting the budget on TV instead of presenting it in the legislature building. Who gives a fuck? How does it hurt anyone or "harm democracy", as the idiots put it? They still get to criticize the thing and attack it all they want, but noooooooo, according to them, they were somehow muzzled because it was presented directly to the public on TV, as if someone stuck a gag on them (ironically, the massive outcry about this act proved that they were full of shit, since they were quite obviously still capable of making their opinions heard).

[Icehawk]

The one which just happened last year. They go on strike or work-to-rule every damned year, after all.

LOL, another hasty generalization. There is a huge difference between work to rule and a strike. But you seem to have not taken a notice to this and don't even bother to consider why they are working to rule.

God forbid there might be some democracy in the public education system, rather than appointed psychocrats running the show

....Ok know you've really lost me. You seem to have missed the fact that it turned Harris into a virtual dictator in regards to the rules of public education and put management into the hands of people that have no expierience in how to run the system properly. Yeah thats democracy for you.

Anecdotal bullshit. The standard in the private sector is nowhere near the true compensation of teachers of equivalent education, once pension, benefits, and vacation time are factored into their salaries. Or do you think you can convince anyone that your friend's father is somehow typical?

And your proof of this is where? What is this so called standard you are referring to? Are you telling me that that the standard for workers in the private sector who are University educated with 5 years postsecondary education is less than $20,000-25,000 per year for a starting position? Now this depends on the board they work for but it can take over almost two decades for a teacher to make a salary in the $50,000+ range.

In regards to private sector workers, take my uncle for example. He is a General Motors employee who works on the line, he has ZERO post secondary education, has a better benefits package, has higher take home pay at the end of the year, will retire by the age of 48 and has nearly the same amount of holidays as my parents and also has a very respectable pension. The auto industry is one of the largest private sector industries in this country and no doubt makes up a large portion of the private sector workforce and they all have the same great salary and benefits as he does.

That's because you are young and ignorant. The salary and benefits of a teacher are much higher than they are for most people with their education.

Are you seriously claiming that the majority of the private sector who have a University degree and 5 years post secondary don't recieve have a salary and benefits similar too teachers when starting off? Ok they may not have the benefits at first but then again, if they have a university degree and five years post secondary in some sort of field they should be doing pretty well off while starting a career.

And the fact that they might do extra work on 30 days does not mean they work 30 actual full days. Moreover, they get a huge number of extra holidays during the year, and they even get paid for sick days if they don't take them. Do you think I get paid when I call in sick, dumb-ass? Do you think I get PD days? Do you think I get a 2.5 month vacation in the summer? Do you think I get a bonus if I don't call in sick all year? Do you think I have a pension with a present-value over a million dollars waiting for me? What do you know about the private sector, jack-ass?

Teachers are payed for 10 months of the year. Their summer vacation is not a payed vacation. Yes teachers do have a great pension, BUT this is because a large amount is taken each month off their salary to be put towards it. They also have been fortunate to have good financial managers who have invested it extrememly well, so yes their pension is very good and yes their are some good perks to being a teacher in regards to days off, however most jobs, private sector or not have perks of their own as well. Also in regards to pention its not like they get a million dollars uppon retirement, they recieve a yearly amount for however long they live after retirement. (my parents just for example will have a pention somewhere around 30,000 per year) However again their are perks to every job. You also speak as though PD days are holidays. Do you even know what PD stands for? Oh you don't? Its Professional Development They are work days which include meetings, planning, curriculem development, etc, etc. Teachers ARE NOT HOME on PD days dumbshit.

Your mommy and daddy told you this, no doubt. I see you are basing all of your conclusions on a lifetime of family indoctrination.

ROFLMAO Now your really getting desperate. I have had volunteer expierience with my parents at their jobs. I know exactly what its like. I know the system just like you supposedly know yours. "Family indoctrination" what an utterly ignorant and laughable statement. I could just as easily say that what you teach your children about life in the private sector is "family indoctriniation"

Oh wow, but people in the private sector DON'T have families and children? What the fuck are you smoking, dumb-ass? Anything you can say about teachers I can say about private-sector workers, but in greater proportion.

Lol more fallacious babbling. Since where did I ever say that they don't? I was responding to the fact that you seemed to be completely ignorant to the reality that teachers have a family and children to pay for and look after just like many of you people in the private sector.

Last week, asshole. My wife volunteered one day every week throughout the entire school year, and at the end of the year the teachers gave her a $5 pen to show their "appreciation".

Ah, so your wife volunteered? good for her. However, they obviously did more than just hand here a pen. If she was good with the children and put in a good effort im sure they were very greatfull for her for her help. However, what more do you expect to get from volunteer work?

They used to hold a little party, but now they're "working to rule".

Yes because they are being treated like shit not just by the gov't but by their own boards as well recently.

And all of that bullshit is no worse than the kind of bullshit you have to put up with in an office, except that you get nowhere near the benefits, nowhere near the pension, and ... oh yeah, you can get FIRED for being incompetent, rather than appealing to an ironclad union which can keep you from losing your job unless you kill somebody.

The bullshit faced by teachers with students and other issues everyday can be alot more stressfull then a position in an office. It is a very different situation. However, this is subjective because different office positions will have different stress levels just as different teaching positions have different stress levels. Also, their are many private sector jobs which have good benefits and good pention and their own unions with perks etc. You are also making an unsupported claim in regards to the teachers union.

No, the salary, benefits, and pension plan of teachers are public knowledge, fully documented, and are grossly out of proportion to their level of work. A teacher's work day is so fucking short that if he DIDN'T put in two extra hours every day, it would be an even bigger ripoff than it is. Every when I used to drive by the local high school in the morning, the parking lot was empty. Every day when I came home, the parking lot was empty. They start the day an hour later than everyone else and end it an hour earlier than everyone else.

They are public knowledge and yet you know so little about them. You have zero knowledge of what it is actually like to be a teacher and the kind of workload and issues they are faced with throughout their lives. However, I am not saying that life in the private sector is unstressfull or not hectic. I am simply defending the teaching profession and trying to get you to realise that teaching is not the peachy life you seem to think it is.

I know engineers who have become teachers. They NEVER EVER complain because they know how much tougher it is in the private sector. It's the ignoramuses like you and most teachers who have never held any other job, who have no knowledge whatsoever of how the private sector works, who spread this bullshit about how tough teachers' jobs are.

What sort of teachers did they become? public school? College? Private? and did it ever even occure to you that they may simply be ENJOYING their new jobs regardless of the stress level because they love to teach and inspire people? But anyways, Mike since you appear to be so jealous of teachers why don't you become one yourself? Surely if you truely care about the welfair of your children more then their teachers you wouldn't mind becoming one? What with all the glorious benefits and holidays. However, I must warn you that you will have to go through 4 years of teachers college and will only have a starting salary of around 25,000. It will take you decades to get a decent salary and you will have to put up with all the bullshit that the torie gov't is shoveling you on top of all the other issues teachers face with

In the end. Teaching is just not as peachy as you think it is and while they do have some good benefits and fairly strong union, the salaries they recieve are well deserved given their role in society (what would modern society be without teachers?) and the workload they do have.

PS. I notice you never even attempted to refute my point about the enormous capital expenditures of a typical auto mechanic compared to those of a typical whiny teacher. And auto mechanics don't take out commercials to demand that the taxpayers make their lives easier.

You also forgot to mention that auto mechanics tend to have very little education, have plenty of money to pay for those "capital expendatures" and will occasionally fuck you over and charge you for things that don't even need to be repaired.[/quote]

[Darth Wong]

The one which just happened last year. They go on strike or work-to-rule every damned year, after all.

LOL, another hasty generalization. There is a huge difference between work to rule and a strike. But you seem to have not taken a notice to this and don't even bother to consider why they are working to rule.

Try "working to rule" in the private sector, pal. Oh wait, I forgot; you're still a dipshit who's never even had a real job, yet you think you're qualified to discuss working conditions in Ontario

....Ok know you've really lost me. You seem to have missed the fact that it turned Harris into a virtual dictator in regards to the rules of public education and put management into the hands of people that have no expierience in how to run the system properly. Yeah thats democracy for you.

It was somehow more accountable to the public under the old system, where the government had no say on policy? Please explain how.

And your proof of this is where? What is this so called standard you are referring to? Are you telling me that that the standard for workers in the private sector who are University educated with 5 years postsecondary education is less than $20,000-25,000 per year for a starting position? Now this depends on the board they work for but it can take over almost two decades for a teacher to make a salary in the $50,000+ range.

According to the OSSTF (the teachers' own fucking union), the AVERAGE teacher salary was over $50k in 1995. Don't bullshit me. See http://www.osstf.on.ca/www/issues/edfi/salries.html . And that is NOT including the monstrous costs of providing their benefits and pensions.

In regards to private sector workers, take my uncle for example. He is a General Motors employee who works on the line, he has ZERO post secondary education, has a better benefits package, has higher take home pay at the end of the year, will retire by the age of 48 and has nearly the same amount of holidays as my parents and also has a very respectable pension. The auto industry is one of the largest private sector industries in this country and no doubt makes up a large portion of the private sector workforce and they all have the same great salary and benefits as he does.

No they don't. I used to work in the auto industry, and quite frankly, you're full of shit. The Big Three automakers' line workers are grotesquely overpaid, and represent the same sort of lazy unionized leeches that populate the teachers' union. I love the way you seek to draw comparisons to the 20% of the work force which is unionized, and the most lazy of those, to boot.

Are you seriously claiming that the majority of the private sector who have a University degree and 5 years post secondary don't recieve have a salary and benefits similar too teachers when starting off? Ok they may not have the benefits at first but then again, if they have a university degree and five years post secondary in some sort of field they should be doing pretty well off while starting a career.

Yes. Factoring in benefits and pension, the average fresh university grad gets paid less than the average teacher (especially once we remove your exaggerated claims about teacher poverty).

Teachers are payed for 10 months of the year. Their summer vacation is not a payed vacation.

So? My vacations aren't paid either, but I still don't get such large quantities of them. And a teacher's pay is enough that it is comparable to private-sector salaries even if you forget the fact that it's only for a 10 month/year job.

Yes teachers do have a great pension, BUT this is because a large amount is taken each month off their salary to be put towards it. They also have been fortunate to have good financial managers who have invested it extrememly well, so yes their pension is very good and yes their are some good perks to being a teacher in regards to days off, however most jobs, private sector or not have perks of their own as well.

Try working in the private sector instead of just making up bullshit about it, Iceberg. You obviously think that the entire private sector is represented by the miniscule fraction of it which has the same kind of unionized extortion scam going as the teachers. 20%, pal. That's the union percentage. The rest of us have to work for a living.

Also in regards to pention its not like they get a million dollars uppon retirement, they recieve a yearly amount for however long they live after retirement. (my parents just for example will have a pention somewhere around 30,000 per year)

Is there some part of "present value" which you don't understand? Of course they get it paid out in pieces. The point is that it would cost a million dollars for a regular person to buy a teacher's pension. And despite your bullshit, a teacher's pension is not paid entirely from his pocket. The pension plan promised more money than it could deliver, so the teachers forced the government to promise that it would pay for the shortfall. See http://www.osstf.on.ca/www/pub/bulletin/ap2098-1.html if you don't believe me.

However again their are perks to every job. You also speak as though PD days are holidays. Do you even know what PD stands for? Oh you don't? Its Professional Development They are work days which include meetings, planning, curriculem development, etc, etc. Teachers ARE NOT HOME on PD days dumbshit.

Hey, dumbshit, the point is that you claim teachers do that shit on their own time, but they get alloted days for it, while private-sector workers don't. And it's pretty obvious that you have NO FUCKING IDEA how the average private-sector worker lives, since you seem to think that teacher benefits are not that unusual.

Your mommy and daddy told you this, no doubt. I see you are basing all of your conclusions on a lifetime of family indoctrination.

ROFLMAO Now your really getting desperate. I have had volunteer expierience with my parents at their jobs. I know exactly what its like. I know the system just like you supposedly know yours.

The point is that you DON'T know the private sector, so you have no basis for comparison. I've volunteered in schools too; have you tried working in a non-union private sector job?

"Family indoctrination" what an utterly ignorant and laughable statement. I could just as easily say that what you teach your children about life in the private sector is "family indoctriniation"

Only if you could show that it was bullshit, like your claims. Your indoctrination is based on ignorance; neither you or your parents know anything about the private sector so you have no grounds for comparison, and when challenged, you merely repeat that you know a lot about the public sector. What part of this do you not understand?

Oh wow, but people in the private sector DON'T have families and children? What the fuck are you smoking, dumb-ass? Anything you can say about teachers I can say about private-sector workers, but in greater proportion.

Lol more fallacious babbling. Since where did I ever say that they don't?

You screeched that I shouldn't be negatively comparing teacher workload to that of private-sector employees because they have kids and families, dumb-ass. That is a red herring since private-sector workers have them too, you blithering idiot.

I was responding to the fact that you seemed to be completely ignorant to the reality that teachers have a family and children to pay for and look after just like many of you people in the private sector.

What makes you think I don't recognize that fact, you moron? I never even tried to bring up family or kids into this; that was YOUR idea. I recognized from the start that they're a red herring since they apply equally to both sides.

Last week, asshole. My wife volunteered one day every week throughout the entire school year, and at the end of the year the teachers gave her a $5 pen to show their "appreciation".

Ah, so your wife volunteered? good for her. However, they obviously did more than just hand here a pen. If she was good with the children and put in a good effort im sure they were very greatfull for her for her help.

I love the way you simply make up bullshit. They "obviously" did more than just hand her a pen? Wrong, asshole. They JUST HANDED HER A PEN. That was the full extent of their appreciation. I was THERE, and you're telling me what "obviously" happened? Holy fuck, I literally cannot believe how arrogant you are.

However, what more do you expect to get from volunteer work?

Maybe a sense that the teachers appreciate the fact that you put in one goddamned full day every fucking week for an entire school year without being paid a dime? Oh, but they're too busy whining about their horrible working conditions

They used to hold a little party, but now they're "working to rule".

Yes because they are being treated like shit not just by the gov't but by their own boards as well recently.

No, they're being treated a little bit more like most employees, and they can't stand moving closer to the common people. They're accustomed to their perks, which are the kind that can only be obtained through labour extortion.

And all of that bullshit is no worse than the kind of bullshit you have to put up with in an office, except that you get nowhere near the benefits, nowhere near the pension, and ... oh yeah, you can get FIRED for being incompetent, rather than appealing to an ironclad union which can keep you from losing your job unless you kill somebody.

The bullshit faced by teachers with students and other issues everyday can be alot more stressfull then a position in an office. It is a very different situation.

With the key difference being that YOU CAN'T GET FIRED. What part of this don't you understand? What larger stress is there than knowing that you might lose your home or be unable to provide for your family if your boss decides you aren't doing a good enough job?

However, this is subjective because different office positions will have different stress levels just as different teaching positions have different stress levels. Also, their are many private sector jobs which have good benefits and good pention and their own unions with perks etc. You are also making an unsupported claim in regards to the teachers union.

No, I provided the links. The only one here spouting unsupported bullshit is you. For example, you claimed that teachers start at $20k and might hit $50k after 10 years. Funny how http://www.learning.gov.ab.ca/k_12/teac ... erpaid.asp says that teachers in Ontario range from $36k (for a new hire with 4 years postsec education, not the 5 years you claim is minimum) up to $72k (for an 11-year vet with 6 years postsec education). When someone lies about verifiable facts, it's pretty obvious who's bullshitting.

No, the salary, benefits, and pension plan of teachers are public knowledge, fully documented, and are grossly out of proportion to their level of work. A teacher's work day is so fucking short that if he DIDN'T put in two extra hours every day, it would be an even bigger ripoff than it is. Every when I used to drive by the local high school in the morning, the parking lot was empty. Every day when I came home, the parking lot was empty. They start the day an hour later than everyone else and end it an hour earlier than everyone else.

They are public knowledge and yet you know so little about them.

Oh, so the empty parking lot at the school has no meaning? Sorry, but it means precisely what I said: they show up for work later, and leave early.

You have zero knowledge of what it is actually like to be a teacher and the kind of workload and issues they are faced with throughout their lives. However, I am not saying that life in the private sector is unstressfull or not hectic. I am simply defending the teaching profession and trying to get you to realise that teaching is not the peachy life you seem to think it is.

Funny how people who have tried BOTH invariably admit that the teachers' life is cushy, while only the people who have never experienced the private sector insist that teachers have it hard.

I know engineers who have become teachers. They NEVER EVER complain because they know how much tougher it is in the private sector. It's the ignoramuses like you and most teachers who have never held any other job, who have no knowledge whatsoever of how the private sector works, who spread this bullshit about how tough teachers' jobs are.

What sort of teachers did they become? public school? College? Private?

High school. And they say the only real stress is the politics and whining.

and did it ever even occure to you that they may simply be ENJOYING their new jobs regardless of the stress level because they love to teach and inspire people?

Oh, so I should assume they're LYING about this, even though as people who have tried both sides of the fence, they're the only ones qualified to discuss it and have no incentive to lie?

But anyways, Mike since you appear to be so jealous of teachers why don't you become one yourself? Surely if you truely care about the welfair of your children more then their teachers you wouldn't mind becoming one? What with all the glorious benefits and holidays. However, I must warn you that you will have to go through 4 years of teachers college and will only have a starting salary of around 25,000.

Wrong, idiot. You can appeal to your teacher parents all you like, but I've known many teachers. Teachers' college is a strictly one year affair, and it's easy. In fact, one of my coworkers did precisely what you suggest a couple of years ago and became a teacher. All you need is some kind of postsec degree and teachers' college, not "4 years in teachers' college". And the starting salary for a full-timer is $36k, not $25k (a figure which grossly understates the true cost of their employment because it ignores benefits). The fact that you resorted so quickly to outright lies speaks volumes about the weakness of your position.

It will take you decades to get a decent salary and you will have to put up with all the bullshit that the torie gov't is shoveling you on top of all the other issues teachers face with

Since I wouldn't have to worry about saving for my own retirement, I wouldn't need a particularly high salary. And here's a surprise for you: domineering bosses may be a shocking new development in the teaching profession, but they are a WAY OF LIFE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR. Yet again, you exhibit staggering ignorance of one side of this equation, while insisting that you can speak for both. I know a lot more about the teaching profession than you know about the private sector, and yes, I did consider becoming a teacher, so I found out what would be required. Needless to say, your claims are bullshit. However, it's a one-way trip to become a teacher. No one will hire you for the private sector again.

In the end. Teaching is just not as peachy as you think it is and while they do have some good benefits and fairly strong union, the salaries they recieve are well deserved given their role in society (what would modern society be without teachers?) and the workload they do have.

Don't give me that "what would society be like without them" speech. Society wouldn't function without sewage workers, policemen, and garbage collectors either, and I don't see people screeching that we need to coddle them.

PS. I notice you never even attempted to refute my point about the enormous capital expenditures of a typical auto mechanic compared to those of a typical whiny teacher. And auto mechanics don't take out commercials to demand that the taxpayers make their lives easier.

You also forgot to mention that auto mechanics tend to have very little education, have plenty of money to pay for those "capital expendatures"

Auto mechanics must have postsec education too, and what makes you think they have plenty of money to buy more than ten thousand dollars worth of tools? You're whining that a teacher might spend hundreds of dollars a year on office supplies and then you dismiss a mechanic buying ten fucking thousand dollars worth of tools?!?!???

and will occasionally fuck you over and charge you for things that don't even need to be repaired.

So? Teachers will often fuck up your child's entire life. Do you have any idea of the damage that a few shitty teachers can wreak on a child's entire life, and how little accountability there is for that? As I said, truly good teachers are like gold: great to have, but rare.

[Darth Wong]

Iceberg: in case you consider that post too long to answer, then answer me this: you harp on your knowledge of teaching (knowledge shown to be grossly exaggerated by your numerous large factual errors), but how much knowledge do you have of the working life and benefits of the 80% of the private sector workforce which is not unionized, yet is forced to pay taxes to support the pensions and salaries of people whose benefits far outstrip their own?

I have friends, relatives, and acquaintances who are teachers. I have also spent time in classrooms, observing teachers in action, I have volunteered, and I have researched the entrance requirements and compensation (more thoroughly than you, apparently). This gives me some knowledge of the other side, and I can state clearly that every honest teacher who knows what it's like on the outside does not whine or bullshit about how hard his job is. What is your knowledge of the other side?