USN vs the rest of the Worlds Navies combined.

[Zoink]

You guys are just lucky the Can-Mexican Armada is staying out of this one!

[Sea Skimmer]

What active torpedo counter measures? Are we talking about a patriot like system under the water?

Its basically a small torpedo fired over the side, it seeks out the inbound torpedo and blows it up. In the future a blue green laser could be used but that's probably still a couple decades away.

Russia already has an active anti torpedo system, RBU 1000. It works by firing a pattern of small charges into the path of the torpedo. You'll find a pair near the stern of many Soviet era cruisers and destroyers. However it isn't very effective because of the difficulty of exact ranging. The larger RBU 6000 mounts near the bows of there ships are for hunting subs, and some smaller vessels use RBU 1000 for that as well.

[Crown]

You know I haven't read about these torps in years, but when we were doing engine design last year our lecturer was talking about how the Russians were experimenting on a hybrid version, that is normal torp that cruises towards the target, then the rocket kicks in. Now I can't remember if the rocket cut off again after a while for a target aquisition, and then just sped in for the kill.

I'll try and find out more from Janes, I remember an Admiral from the USN quoting on the system, and he basically said; 'Yeah well, we've got nothing to stop that right now'.

However did the thread stipulate no nukes? Because you are right, the first version of the idea did indeed have a tack-nuke warhead, and obviously if no nukes is in affect then these shouldn't even be considered.

[Sea Skimmer]

You know I haven't read about these torps in years, but when we were doing engine design last year our lecturer was talking about how the Russians were experimenting on a hybrid version, that is normal torp that cruises towards the target, then the rocket kicks in. Now I can't remember if the rocket cut off again after a while for a target aquisition, and then just sped in for the kill.

It basically pops out of the tube, speeds down the bearing using its rocket and then slows down to use normal sonar to acquire and engage the target. It is however very slow while doing this and might simply be ourun. The range was also improved to more like 10,000 meters but that is still quite low, about 20% of that of normal Russian 21-inch torpedoes.

However did the thread stipulate no nukes? Because you are right, the first version of the idea did indeed have a tack-nuke warhead, and obviously if no nukes is in affect then these shouldn't even be considered.

The thread certainly shouldn't allow nukes, otherwise the USN unleashes its nuclear depth charges and a few other things.

[Falkenhayn]

Thankyou ever so much for making my point - Submarines are NOT completely pointless - they can and HAVE regularly and routinely penetrate surface action groups and taken "offending" photographs. This happens on both sides and as such, thankyou for supporting me in my statement of this fact.

Indeed. Except your submarines are supposed to sinking USN ships in this scenario, not taking pictures. And Yes. They are pointless. Did you read anything I wrote?

Short range diesel electric boats don't have the endurance, but they have the best crews. Novembers, Alphas and Akulas as they are are too loud, except for the newest versions of Akula, of which their are but a handful. That leaves Foxtrot class nuke boats and Chinese homegrown SSNs which are like an Orc walking into Lothlorien banging a pot and pan. Kilos can't run at flank speed long enough to catch a carrier battlegroup. And it's not like a Battlegroup couldn't pound the area around them with active sonar at random intervals to detect lurkers.

So what you have offered me in rebuttal is a self righteous statement and no facts. I stand in awe at your debating prowess. I was laboring under the impression that one must support a position with fact, and a rebuttal with fact.

But no, you want to start a dick waving contest about the photogenic qualities of the Nimitz Class Carrier. Not like it's going to matter, none of your subs are going to live long enough to see one anyway.

[Sea Skimmer]

You guys are just lucky the Can-Mexican Armada is staying out of this one!

Yeah, that twelve-knot Fletcher with possibly operable guns could be a real bitch.

[Arrow]

The thread certainly shouldn't allow nukes, otherwise the USN unleashes its nuclear depth charges and a few other things.

WTF?! Was some ASW weapon designer smoking crack one day and made that up? Wouldn't that weapon be sucidial, as well?

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

The thread certainly shouldn't allow nukes, otherwise the USN unleashes its nuclear depth charges and a few other things.

WTF?! Was some ASW weapon designer smoking crack one day and made that up? Wouldn't that weapon be sucidial, as well?

Naw, the water absorbs a good deal of the energy, so its not that much of a threat to anything on the surface if its detonated deep enough. (as long as their not caught in the steam cloud that comes up f rom the depths). The shockwave that the nuke causes is absolutly devestating to subs though.

[Sea Skimmer]

WTF?! Was some ASW weapon designer smoking crack one day and made that up? Wouldn't that weapon be sucidial, as well?

You're under the mistaken impression that these where deliver via dropping them over the stern. That was not the case. Delivery was either via ASROC, SUBROC or fixed wing aircraft could drop them. The devices where tested using ASROC as the delivery system several times. Russia also deployed several similar systems as did the UK and I believe France.

In this test the 20 kiloton depth charge was set to explode at a depth of 650 feet and was fired to 4348 yards range, though one of the test ships was only 2200 yards away and unaffected.




This is an earlier test using an 8 kiloton bomb which was emplaced at 150 feet on the bottom of a lagoon to gather data for the development of nuclear depth charges.

[Vympel]

They don't have it yet, and given the way the Russians have quietly shelved and given up every major research project over the past decade after getting one nice pretty prototype for photo ops, I remain skeptical.

And your source for this claim is .....?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Their chances at hitting an enemy major surface combatant would be improved if they had more than torpedoes. The Kilo SSK variants can all be armed with the Club series of ASuW and ASW missiles quite easily.

The trick is actually getting decent targeting information. I wouldn't trust a convergence zone contact to be accurate enough for such a launch; missile seekers have very narrow fields of view. And without that you still need to get within 30 miles or so to launch. There is also the problem that with a dozen E-2's watching the air your launch will be instantly spotted, and then a swarm of SH-60's show up overhead.

The low number of missiles fired also makes it fairly easy to defeat such an attack, the defenders have hundreds of missile directors and independent CIWS mounts and thousands of weapons to launch.

Well, maybe if they launched in high initial flight mode, they might be able to climb high enough to get a radar picture early - if the seeker is powerful enough, but then all they have to do is locate a non-stealthy carrier (USN carriers designed for LO are stll AFAIK a few years away for the next generation.)

They might even try "high-low" guidance, a method proposed for the P-700 where one missile flies high to take a look and sends information down to the others that are flying low, but IIRC not seaskimmer.

Of course, once the high missile appears, somebody would see it almost for sure, and without the element of surprise, they have no hope... certainly no hope for making it past the whole dense AAW screen and hitting a High Value Asset.

The projectable power of the USN in anywhere approaching neutral territory is so great.

Sure, MAYBE a nuke sub would sneak in, but the ASW screen in this scenario would be thicker than ever before. Even if they got the shot off, the noise of the shot would probably be their own death sentence. Depending on the geometry, they might be destroyed before their own torpedo approaches the target.

At worst, one carrier sunk from lucky shots, or two damaged. That's badly optimistic.