Scarlet-Spider vs Jedi

[KK]

Ah still with the Wall of Ignorance...nice to see you have it full force.

That's all you're capable of, isn't it.

You're not smart enough to see things any deeper than black and white analyzations of pixils-per-frame, and so anybody who tries deeper thought is ignorant.

The only ignorance here is your refusal to accept that Luke's mental state is of any importance.

And to Crazedwraith none of the ongoing....babbling has anything other then the speed of the Impact webbing is implying the thought of using the Force Choke but whether or not is it usable by Jedi.

Would you like me to quote the TWO DIFFERENT TIMES I said, in plain English, that Ben wouldn't *have to* hit him with impact webbing, since he can spray wide-angle streams that the Jedi couldn't dodge?

Luke uses it in RoTJ...end of story.

No, that's not the end of the story. It's not even close to the end of the story. You've taken nothing into consideration. Nothing. The end of the story involves an analyzation of Luke himself.

Luke is NOT a representation of the average Jedi.

Anakin was supposedly too old to begin the training. Compare that to Luke's age, which was way older than Anakin. He missed out on TONS of training. The fact is, they have to begin the training at such a young age specifically to avoid what happened with Anakin. Their young minds are more easily molded, and they are more open-minded. Luke missed out on the most important part of the Jedi training and skipped right to combat training. Yoda even made note of this.

On top of that, he didn't actually finish what little training he did get. He ran off against Yoda's wishes to save his friends. When he left, he didn't even know the difference between the light and dark sides, let alone got a firm grip on it. He actually had to ask Yoda the difference. Furthermore, Yoda made it clear that he felt anger in Luke, which leads to the dark side.

Luke wasn't trained properly, he didn't understand the subtle nuances of the Force, and he certanly didn't pass the Trials.

He is not an accurate representation of a true Jedi.

And THAT is the end of the story.

And as for speed calcs KK...watch the Genosisan battle again moron.

You mean the battle where Jengo's blaster killed a Jedi, and the battle droids killed dozens of other Jedi?

[KK]

u know im sure.....

IVE ELIMINATED FOCE CHOKE FROM CONSIDERATION

dam i need a bigger font

The problem is, they see that "limitation" as conceeding that without limiting the Jedi, one would easily beat Scarlet Spider.

In reality, it isn't a limitation, since it flat-out is not something Jedi do.

[Ghost Rider]

Nice prevalent WoI and ad hominem response to boot.

Still haven't refuted the actual objective use of Luke's abilities...nor did anything towards the Blaster calcs.

And interestingly provided no objective evidence that Impact Webbing exceeds 100m/s(Jango Fire on the Jedi was at least that...and yet the Jedi were also able to deflect faster bolts...did you watch AoTC )

So let's see subjective babbling and nit-picking.

[KK]

Nice prevalent WoI and ad hominem response to boot.

Nice cop-out.

It's not like you use the word "moron" in every fucking reply.

Still haven't refuted the actual objective use of Luke's abilities...nor did anything towards the Blaster calcs.

Luke's abilities are not applicable here, so I could give less than two shits about refuting them. He force choked. If I ever even remotely implied that he wasn't able to, you would have reason to reply in this manner.

And the blaster calcs are less than worthless. So blasters are somewhat fast, yet still slugs next to bullets. And Jengo was able to kill a Jedi with it. Excuse me while I pretend to be amazed.

And interestingly provided no objective evidence that Impact Webbing exceeds 100m/s(Jango Fire on the Jedi was at least that...and yet the Jedi were also able to deflect faster bolts...did you watch AoTC )

Third time's the charm: Ben WOULD NOT NEED TO USE IMPACT WEBBING. He can fire webbing in a WIDE-ANGLE SPRAY. He can cover the entire area in webbing. No ammount of moving his arms fast is going to help if the whole damn area is in the webbing's path.

And Jedi also GOT HIT by those bolts, so what is your point?

100m/s, which is a generous calculation to begin with, is less than three times as fast as a good pitch in baseball, anyway. Big whoop.

[Ghost Rider]

Pointless ad-hominem again.

Concession of Luke using a Force Choke. He is a Jedi in training when he used it.

And given the volume of fire...amazing that at least 30 Jedi survived the Genosisan conflit. In the Gensosian conflict it shows Blaster fire in excess of 1000m/s.

And a baseball at 60 mph is 26 m/s...about a quater slower...and gravity affects this.

You want to make a point about the speed of webbing or Impact webbing or you going to concede that as well?

[Crazedwraith]

1) no force chockes allowed. I dont care if luke used it he is one ill-trained jedi that uses it among dozens of fully trained jedi who dont.
2)What does it matter bout the spped of blaster bolts?? As the 3 or more impact webings strike at the same time it is impossible for the jedi to block them all.
3) Even if the impact webbs doesnt work he can fire a wide-beam style web that it would be near than impossible to block
4) If he doesn't force choke how can a jedi affect spider-man? I doubt spidy would let them get within saber range

[thecreech]

"And a Jedi to avoid force chokes"? Obviously, you were sleeping during ROTJ when Luke killed a pair of Gamorrean guards in Jabba's palace with Force chokes.

Out of curiosity, does the novelization confirm that Luke actually killed those guards? I ask because using the Force to kill someone seems like a very Dark Sided thing to do. I can see how a Jedi might use the Force that way to choke them unconscious, thereby avoiding the need to kill them, but to just kill them outright strikes me as very sinister.

Well you can think about it this way. Luke was undertrained. Probably wasn't thinking in the right frame of mind per the fact that he was trying to rescue han and leia. He probably did because he was in a hurry? I don't know i never read the novels

[Ghost Rider]

Unless Impact Webbing is going in excess of bullets the Jedi can both avoid(TPM) and/or slice them out of the Air.

Webbing same problem.

Jedi can hold Ben by TK force.

Jedi still has a greater reach in hand to hand combat and a superior pre-cog talent.

[KK]

Pointless ad-hominem again.

Point out the ad hominem or shut the fuck up, bitch.

Concession of Luke using a Force Choke. He is a Jedi in training when he used it.

Concession?

I never once denied it.

The "in-taining" part is more important than you'll admit. He was about as well-trained as those little kids Yoda was teaching in a group in AotC, but actually less disciplined.

Luke, like it or not, is not a good representation of a Jedi.

And given the volume of fire...amazing that at least 30 Jedi survived the Genosisan conflit. In the Gensosian conflict it shows Blaster fire in excess of 1000m/s.

And they sent, what? 200 Jedi?

Where did you get 1000m/s, anyway? The blaster fire was visible. 1000m/s would've been alot faster than what was shown. And considering that a Jedi GOT HIT by Jengo's blasts, I'd say this 1000m/s Jedi reflexes is unsubstantiated BS.

And a baseball at 60 mph is 26 m/s...about a quater slower...and gravity affects this.

60MPH isn't as fast as baseballs get.

But a likely better example would be tennis. Tennis serves can be around 130 MPH, and that's women's tennis. And thsoe serves are sent right back. Or hockey pucks, which are shot at around 120 MPH and can be caught by the goalie.

You want to make a point about the speed of webbing or Impact webbing or you going to concede that as well?

Listen up, because I'm only going to repeat myself to you one more fucking time.

A Jedi being able to move his arms fast is not going to help if he uses a WIDE-ANGLE STREAM OF WEBBING. He can fire the webbing so that the stream is as wide as an entire alley. If he makes the stream of webbing wide enough to fill the entire area, then moving his arms quickly is NOT going to help the Jedi one fucking bit.

I don't need to concede anything because my argument in no way relies on the speed of webbing. Trying to pretend that my argument relies on the speed of impact webbing is nothing more than a sensless straw man.

[Ghost Rider]

Pointless ad-hominem again.

Point out the ad hominem or shut the fuck up, bitch.

Looky third time.

Concession of Luke using a Force Choke. He is a Jedi in training when he used it.

Concession?

I never once denied it.

The "in-taining" part is more important than you'll admit. He was about as well-trained as those little kids Yoda was teaching in a group in AotC, but actually less disciplined.

Luke, like it or not, is not a good representation of a Jedi.[/quote]

Concession accepted.

Luke was a Jedi in training.

Objective disagrees with you on whether or not can Jedi utilize the ability

And given the volume of fire...amazing that at least 30 Jedi survived the Genosisan conflit. In the Gensosian conflict it shows Blaster fire in excess of 1000m/s.

And they sent, what? 200 Jedi?

Where did you get 1000m/s, anyway? The blaster fire was visible. 1000m/s would've been alot faster than what was shown. And considering that a Jedi GOT HIT by Jengo's blasts, I'd say this 1000m/s Jedi reflexes is unsubstantiated BS.[/quote]

Given blaster fire exists for 1-2 frames in the same area and shows that literally it travels the Genosisan battlefield in 2-3 seconds span tends to disagree with your sentiment

And a baseball at 60 mph is 26 m/s...about a quater slower...and gravity affects this.

60MPH isn't as fast as baseballs get.

But a likely better example would be tennis. Tennis serves can be around 130 MPH, and that's women's tennis. And thsoe serves are sent right back. Or hockey pucks, which are shot at around 120 MPH and can be caught by the goalie.[/quote]

Fine 50 m/s...your point?

You want to make a point about the speed of webbing or Impact webbing or you going to concede that as well?

Listen up, because I'm only going to repeat myself to you one more fucking time.

A Jedi being able to move his arms fast is not going to help if he uses a WIDE-ANGLE STREAM OF WEBBING. He can fire the webbing so that the stream is as wide as an entire alley. If he makes the stream of webbing wide enough to fill the entire area, then moving his arms quickly is NOT going to help the Jedi one fucking bit.

I don't need to concede anything because my argument in no way relies on the speed of webbing. Trying to pretend that my argument relies on the speed of impact webbing is nothing more than a sensless straw man.[/quote]

I see so you won't even go to the point of giving a speed to it.

And how would wide angle stream catch a Jedi who isn't there...and/or can cut through said substance?

You didn't.

Concession accepted.

[KK]

Looky third time.

So you'll claim I'm using ad hom but won't point it out?

This reminds me of one of those movies where a ho talks back to her pimp and gets bitch-slapped for it.

Concession accepted.

I never denied it to begin with, fucking genius. It took you this long to get that?

Luke was a Jedi in training.

And thus not representative of a full Jedi.

Objective disagrees with you on whether or not can Jedi utilize the ability

No, it doesn't, because Luke does not represent a true Jedi.

Given blaster fire exists for 1-2 frames in the same area and shows that literally it travels the Genosisan battlefield in 2-3 seconds span tends to disagree with your sentiment

And that comes out to 1000m/s how?

Fine 50 m/s...your point?

That blocking 100m/s blaster shots isn't that amazingly impressive, considering tennis players actually have to not only hit the ball back, but run to get in front of it.

When you consider that he was able to KILL one of the Jedi with that blast, well it's even less impressive.

I see so you won't even go to the point of giving a speed to it.

I do not need to, because the tactic does not rely on the speed of the webbing.

Do I have to say it in French for you to get it?

Or just make a picture?



Speed has nothing to do with it.

And how would wide angle stream catch a Jedi who isn't there...and/or can cut through said substance?

So now Jedi have intangibility?

You think he can cut through a continual stream of webbing such as that? Not happening.

[SAMAS]

Pointless ad-hominem again.

Point out the ad hominem or shut the fuck up, bitch.

Looky third time.

Unfortunately, he has a valid point.

Calling a person an idiot is not Ad Hominem if you have an argument to back it up.

Concession of Luke using a Force Choke. He is a Jedi in training when he used it.

Concession?

I never once denied it.

The "in-taining" part is more important than you'll admit. He was about as well-trained as those little kids Yoda was teaching in a group in AotC, but actually less disciplined.

Luke, like it or not, is not a good representation of a Jedi.

Concession accepted.

Luke was a Jedi in training.

Objective disagrees with you on whether or not can Jedi utilize the ability

Unfortunately, Luke was not an actual Jedi, nor was he trained in the ways of typical Jedi. He had basic training from Kenobi and a little of the intermediate stuff from Yoda. But his training was never formally completed. Luke was never a conventional Jedi. The true Jedi died with Yoda. He carried, and used, both the Light and Dark Sides of the Force. In short, Luke Skywalker is the Balance that Anakin was destined to bring to the Force.

In other words, he's a special case.

And by definition, Special Cases are not examples of the norm.

KK isn't disputing that Luke Skywalker can Force Choke. But he wants you to prove that Random Jedi #381 can do it, because he/she is the one who will be fighting Parker/Riley, not Luke.

You want to make a point about the speed of webbing or Impact webbing or you going to concede that as well?

Listen up, because I'm only going to repeat myself to you one more fucking time.

A Jedi being able to move his arms fast is not going to help if he uses a WIDE-ANGLE STREAM OF WEBBING. He can fire the webbing so that the stream is as wide as an entire alley. If he makes the stream of webbing wide enough to fill the entire area, then moving his arms quickly is NOT going to help the Jedi one fucking bit.

I don't need to concede anything because my argument in no way relies on the speed of webbing. Trying to pretend that my argument relies on the speed of impact webbing is nothing more than a sensless straw man.

I see so you won't even go to the point of giving a speed to it.

And how would wide angle stream catch a Jedi who isn't there...and/or can cut through said substance?

You didn't.

Concession accepted.[/quote]

Does it matter?

The Jedi has just broken their concentration to deal with the webbing. No more concentration, no more choking.

[KK]

Keep in mind that weblien speed is NOT required for my argument of a wide-angle shot.

But since you asked, somebody (who is still waiting for his registration to pass) has gone ahead and done some calcs for you.

Title 1, Chapter 28, approximately 1:55:31.

By the time Spider-Man gains peak mastery of his abilities in the movie.

Frame 1: Spider-Man is in mid-air, flying towards a crane. We can clearly see his arm because it's still in a raised posiiton. No web line.

Frame 2: He lowers his arm, so that he can aim directly at the crane. we see no webline, though his body is obscuring the view of his arm.

Frame 3-22: We go from seeing no web-line to seeing a webline that stretches all the way to the crane, complete with a "Spot" where the webbing finally hits.

Frame 23: Spider-Man is directly below the crane and in a straight line relative to it. We see the two of them directly next to a skyscrapper. You can clearly count 17 stories of difference between the height that Spider-Man is at and the height that the crane is at.

17 stories * 10 feet per story * metric conversion = a little more than 50 meters.

Since the webline was constructed in 1-2 frames, that gives his webline around 600-1200 meters per second.

[Ghost Rider]

So you'll claim I'm using ad hom but won't point it out?

This reminds me of one of those movies where a ho talks back to her pimp and gets bitch-slapped for it.

And again with the ad-hominem

I never denied it to begin with, fucking genius. It took you this long to get that?

So all that Dark Side subjective Bullshit was someone else claiming that Luke wasn't a Jedi in training?

And thus not representative of a full Jedi.

And this denies the other Jedi how again?

Objective disagrees with you on whether or not can Jedi utilize the ability

No, it doesn't, because Luke does not represent a true Jedi.

Subjective BS...again

How again does he not represent a Jedi in training...oh wait he does.

Given blaster fire exists for 1-2 frames in the same area and shows that literally it travels the Genosisan battlefield in 2-3 seconds span tends to disagree with your sentiment

And that comes out to 1000m/s how?[/quote]

Look at the Genosisian battlefield.

Fine 50 m/s...your point?

That blocking 100m/s blaster shots isn't that amazingly impressive, considering tennis players actually have to not only hit the ball back, but run to get in front of it.

When you consider that he was able to KILL one of the Jedi with that blast, well it's even less impressive.[/quote]

Ah so lying now?

So the Tennis balls goes in excess of 200mph in less the 1-2 meters like Jango's blasters?

I see so you won't even go to the point of giving a speed to it.

I do not need to, because the tactic does not rely on the speed of the webbing.

Do I have to say it in French for you to get it?

Or just make a picture?



Speed has nothing to do with it.[/quote]

Nice Red Herring...since if the Jedi is fast enough to get out of area...the Webbing never hits him.

So now Jedi have intangibility?

You think he can cut through a continual stream of webbing such as that? Not happening.

Hmm nice strawman...I never said intagibility.

And go back to watching TPM.

I see so Webbing is on the level of Bullet speeds.

Oh wait...it isn't.

Wanna try for another try?

As for SAMAS...you do know what an Ad-Hominem is right...so where is his attacking my arguement in any of his last two opening statements again?

Oh wait he wasn't.

There is a difference between saying Dumbfuck and Okay e=mc^2 dumbfuck.

Nice of you to twist and wiggle but you've yet to present...Luke was a Jedi in training.

Unusual perhaps...but are you saying that because he was under different circumstances that this gave him abilites unknown and unheard of in the Jedi order?

And the last part...Spidey is losing oxygen ...so obviously he's able to simple erect a barrier that the Jedi will know is going to occur and stand there

[Ghost Rider]

Keep in mind that weblien speed is NOT required for my argument of a wide-angle shot.

But since you asked, somebody (who is still waiting for his registration to pass) has gone ahead and done some calcs for you.

Title 1, Chapter 28, approximately 1:55:31.

By the time Spider-Man gains peak mastery of his abilities in the movie.

Frame 1: Spider-Man is in mid-air, flying towards a crane. We can clearly see his arm because it's still in a raised posiiton. No web line.

Frame 2: He lowers his arm, so that he can aim directly at the crane. we see no webline, though his body is obscuring the view of his arm.

Frame 3-22: We go from seeing no web-line to seeing a webline that stretches all the way to the crane, complete with a "Spot" where the webbing finally hits.

Frame 23: Spider-Man is directly below the crane and in a straight line relative to it. We see the two of them directly next to a skyscrapper. You can clearly count 17 stories of difference between the height that Spider-Man is at and the height that the crane is at.

17 stories * 10 feet per story * metric conversion = a little more than 50 meters.

Since the webline was constructed in 1-2 frames, that gives his webline around 600-1200 meters per second.

Good...

Still has two flaws.

The Jedi still has Pre-cog...and the Crane doesn't have a weapon which can slice through said substance.

[KK]

And again with the ad-hominem

"You are wrong because you're a dumbass" is not the same as "you are a dumbass."

I'm insulting you. That's not ad hominem.

So all that Dark Side subjective Bullshit was someone else claiming that Luke wasn't a Jedi in training?

You would have a fraction of a point if any of this stuff was subjective.

It's plain and simple fact that Luke didn't know his shit and was confused about the nature of the force. He had to ask Yoda what the difference between light and dark was. And what was Yoda's answer? That Jedi don't use the force for attack!

Luke went into the fucking dark side the minute he used the force choke. And why's that? Because he didn't have even a slight fraction of the training, knowledge, and discipline of a real Jedi.

And this denies the other Jedi how again?

Because, unlike Luke, they are real, honest-to-goodness, light side Jedi! And what do we know about Jedi? "Jedi use the force never for attack."

Subjective BS...again

Did Luke pass the Jedi Trials?

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, full understanding of the difference between the light side and dark side would be a part of the Trials?

It's not subjective. Do you even know what subjective means? it is NOT my opinion that Luke wasn't a real Jedi. It's fucking fact. Deal with it.

How again does he not represent a Jedi in training...oh wait he does.

Because he uses the dark side!

Ah so lying now?

No.

So the Tennis balls goes in excess of 200mph in less the 1-2 meters like Jango's blasters?

Why don't you point out where I said that, you lying son of a bitch?

Point is, a Jedi being twice as fast as Suzy Tennis Player doesn't impress me in the least.

Nice Red Herring...since if the Jedi is fast enough to get out of area...the Webbing never hits him.

You would have to prove the Jedi could possibly get out of the area.

Not to mention hope like Hell is isn't an even remotely enclosed area, like almost every Jedi duel seems to take place in.

And go back to watching TPM.

I see so Webbing is on the level of Bullet speeds.

Spider-Man has webbed characters who can dodge bullets before, you know.

Oh wait...it isn't.

Oh wait, that doesn't matter with the wide-stream.

You've proven that a Jedi can move their lightsaber a matter of inches to block things. That doesn't translate into them being able to move several meters to get out of the way of an enormous continual stream of webbing.

Nice of you to twist and wiggle but you've yet to present...Luke was a Jedi in training.

So was Anakin. Tyrannus himself already was a Jedi.

Being a Jedi-in-training doesn't mean he couldn't have delved into the dark side, which according to Yoda himself, he did.

Unusual perhaps...but are you saying that because he was under different circumstances that this gave him abilites unknown and unheard of in the Jedi order?

Who knows more about the Jedi order? Yoda or Ghost Rider? Thought so.

[KK]

Good...

Still has two flaws.

The Jedi still has Pre-cog...and the Crane doesn't have a weapon which can slice through said substance.

You asked for speed. That's what you got.

The lightsaber would be utterly useless against wide-angle webbing. It would be like standing in front of a dam, letting the water loose, and trying to use a baseball bat to keep yourself dry.

[Ghost Rider]

Yes...and the Jedi is one will see it coming.

And it will also have the ability to destroy enough of it to free himself.

Your presumption is literally the Jedi will stand there dumbfounded and get Webbed up enough for Ben to land a punch...disregarding the other abilities the Jedi has.

[KK]

Yes...and the Jedi is one will see it coming.

And it will also have the ability to destroy enough of it to free himself.

Your presumption is literally the Jedi will stand there dumbfounded and get Webbed up enough for Ben to land a punch...disregarding the other abilities the Jedi has.

That's like saying, "If you had a baseball bat and saw an avalanche coming, you could block the snow and not get wet."

A blade doesn't do a damn bit of good if you can't move your arm.

[Ghost Rider]

Same presumptions that the Jedi stands there dumbfounded.

[SAMAS]

Same presumptions that the Jedi stands there dumbfounded.

So what is the Jedi gonna do about it? He swings once, he still gets covered in webbing.

Assuming he can move the saber enough to cut himself free, that leaves him vulnerable to a possible attack from the spider in question, or a second dose of webbing, making it even harder for the Jedi to free himself or attack. Repeat ad- infinitum until the Jedi stops moving.

Then, to paraphrase Capcom's rendition of Spidey:

"MAXIMUM SPIDER!"

[Strider119]

LUKE: But I need your help. I've come back to complete the training.

YODA: No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need.

Yoda sighs, and lies back on his bed.

LUKE: Then I am a Jedi?

YODA: (shakes his head) Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.





Yoda tells him he is not a Jedi .....


So his foce choke was not a choke from a light side jedi, it was from a guy with a lil bit of combat training who uses the force and hates his father






Happy go lucky:
Strider119

[Strider119]

BEN: Vader humbled you when first you met him,
Luke... but that experience was part of your
training. It taught you, among other things, the
value of patience. Had you not been so impatient
to defeat Vader then, you could have finished
your training here with Yoda. You would have been
prepared.

LUKE: But I had to help my friends.

BEN: (grinning at Luke's indignation) And did you
help them? It was they who had to save you. You
achieved little by rushing back prematurely, I fear.

LUKE: (with sadness) I found out Darth Vader was my
father.

BEN: To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and
then go beyond the dark side - the side your father
couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest door -
for you, like your father. Only, your father was
seduced by what he found on the other side of the
door, and you have held firm. You're no longer so
reckless now, Luke. You are strong and patient. And
now, you must face Darth Vader again!




....

That scene specifically says that Luke did not complete the training.

That scene also says that Anakin is still a slave to the Dark side, and Luke needs to go beyond it if he wants to be a Jedi.

Luke has not gone beyond the darkside yet, thus he is not a Light side Jedi.





wet and wild:
Strider119

[Strider119]

The average reflex time of a human being is .25 seconds.

Meaning. Spider-Man's reflex time is 0.00625.


Buuuuut. Of course. The hand is *quicker* than the eye is, and Spider-Man is no different. About 3-5 times as quick on the average person's jab.

Making Spider-Man's movement time is a conservative .001 seconds, assuming he's actually *thinking* in between each shot.







Meaning, Spider-Man can throw 100 punches per second!!



woot!!!





little old lady:
Strider119

[Ghost Rider]

For easy summary.

SAMAS: Yes the Jedi is standing there dumbfounded.

Strider: nice of you to point out something I already did...and oh looky Spiderman is faster then a human being...no shit, really?

So anymore nitpicks?