Are most people idiots?

[Jim Raynor]

Do you guys think the normal, average person understands proper logic and how to argue their side in a debate? I mean, we all make fun of the Creationists/Fundamentalists and diehard Trekkies here, but the majority of people I've argued with in a lot of other places seem just as god damn stupid. I have zero tolerance for idiots when they get in my face, and I usually call them out to prove whatever points they think they have against me. This happened to me on some pro wrestling board when me and this other guy got into a debate over what a certain move was. All he did was repeat his god damn broken record (EASILY the most common and annoying debating fallacy in my book) without any actual proof. Same thing happened when me and this other guy got into an argument over proper dueling rules in Diablo 2. This stupid idiot kept repeating his already refuted points. He then resorted to oh so clever "You're gay" insults before providing an exit ramp for him to leave without admitting defeat (He claimed that we would pick up the already finished debate some other time, where he would make me know that I'm wrong. If not, he'd hunt me down and kill me in real life. Ooooh, scary). I've also noticed that many of the people I know personally will stubbornly hold onto their positions no matter how much evidence there is against them. So what do you guys think? Are the people you run into fairly reasonable, or are they mostly idiots?

[Enlightenment]

Do you guys think the normal, average person understands proper logic and how to argue their side in a debate? I mean, we all make fun of the Creationists/Fundamentalists and diehard Trekkies here, but the majority of people I've argued with in a lot of other places seem just as god damn stupid.

I'm of the opinion that 'god damn stupid' is a very accurate description of the mental abilities of most people online and in real life. I tend to attribute this to an education system which has been dumbed down for political purposes: after all, idiots will vote for anyone.

[Chris Walker]

I've also noticed that many of the people I know personally will stubbornly hold onto their positions no matter how much evidence there is against them. So what do you guys think? Are the people you run into fairly reasonable, or are they mostly idiots?

I think there are two types of 'idiots' - those that are genuinely stupid (ie. simply unable to grasp logic, engage in rational thought, understand basic maths and science, etc), and those who may be intelligent but act idiotically and irrationally through stubborn human nature.

For example, I too have encountered the 'Invincible Ignorance' fallacy when debating with my friends in real life. One, in particular, simply will not concede defeat no matter how much evidence against his position is presented; very DarkStar-like. He also flings out endless waves of logical fallacies, and eventually started berating & mocking me for calling him out on them, rather than stop using them himself. When I eventually walk away from the argument in frustration, he claims victory (Black Knight Syndrome) without still having provided evidence or refuting my arguments. I would call him a Type II idiot because he isn't unintelligent (he is also well educated); it is human nature that plays a big part in his behaviour. Conceding defeat is considered to be an unthinkable weakness to him (and many others) because of ego ... so he just won't do it. Sanity goes out of the window first.

I also think that many people are simply unaware of things like logical fallacies, and tend to unwittingly base their conclusions on flawed arguments. I know that I am as guilty as the next person for having done this in the past; learning more about fallacious arguments has significantly changed the way in which I arrive at a conclusion because it made my analysis far more rigourous. So what I describe as idiotic behaviour arises, say, when someone has these flaws pointed out to them, has it explained that they are making unsubstantiated claims, yet still stubbornly clings to their original statement. This could be through genuine stupidity (eg. simply unable to grasp the concept of requiring evidence to support a claim, like certain Jehovah's Witnesses I've argued with), or because they are well aware they've lost but won't concede due to ego. I think it's worth differentiating between this kind of idiotic, wilful behaviour, and those who argue wrongly out of ignorance - which can be corrected.

A further thought: perhaps the dumbing-down of our educational systems has propagated more of the Type I idiots. If you're not taught to think logically and apply that ability to situations and arguments in everyday life, maybe you just lose the capacity to really ever do so after a while? After all, it seems to become harder for people to do so the longer they leave it. The idiots we meet online are content to regurgitate happy, easy thoughts. When challenged, it's far less hassle for them to mindlessly reiterate their point without logically refuting the opposing view than it is to actually think hard about their own position. Why? Because they've never/rarely been taught to or actually practiced doing so ... the harder path.

[Mr Bean]

Idiots? Verrry common unforutnatly

[Lagmonster]

While not speaking for intelligence, *everyone* is capable of being stupid. I am well educated, responsible, and in all many usual ways intelligent and careful. But I can still be reading the paper while I walk and step off a curb and nearly get plowed by a bus. Sometimes, I've discovered, when people are yelling vehemently about something they want to go in their favor, they actually have this voice in their head saying "Why am I doing this? This always ends badly."

[RedImperator]

People aren't so much stupid as illogical. Ego, wishful thinking, greed, lapses in judgement, etc. make people behave in idiotic ways (refusing to concede an argument, getting scammed, stepping out in front of a bus). And sometimes people who come off as idiots on one topic turn out to be pretty smart on another, especially in questions of book smarts vs. street smarts. Assuming you're smarter than everyone around you is a good way to get sucker-punched by the guy who really is smarter than everyone around him.

[Darth Wong]

Half of the population has an IQ above 100. The other half has an IQ below 100. Half of the population really is stupid.

Unfortunately, that half tends to control our entertainment industry, so it brainwashes much of the other half into emulating its thinking. The education system is supposed to counteract this, but it often does a piss-poor job (after all, too many teachers belong to the wrong half).

[Darth Wong]

Assuming you're smarter than everyone around you is a good way to get sucker-punched by the guy who really is smarter than everyone around him.

And some people wonder why I don't worry about appearing blue-collar or un-intellectual by swearing, participating in "immature" activities, and generally behaving naturally, rather than acting like an "intellectual". People who put on airs of intellectual superiority) are just asking to get the SmackDown (Gothmog was an excellent example). They also tend to underestimate people like me, who make no effort to appear intellectual.

[weemadando]

Assuming you're smarter than everyone around you is a good way to get sucker-punched by the guy who really is smarter than everyone around him.

And some people wonder why I don't worry about appearing blue-collar or un-intellectual by swearing, participating in "immature" activities, and generally behaving naturally, rather than acting like an "intellectual". People who put on airs of intellectual superiority) are just asking to get the SmackDown (Gothmog was an excellent example). They also tend to underestimate people like me, who make no effort to appear intellectual.

This reminds me of a chem teacher from school who made every effort not to be teacher-like and instead swore like a trooper, told stories and generally tought us a lot without actually teaching us.

He also enjoyed making explosives far too much.

[Kelly Antilles]

Short answer: Yes.

A friend of mine has come up with a great idea. Idiot Ink(tm). You must have a license to weild Idiot Ink(tm). If you come across someone acting like an idiot, you spray the Ink(tm) on them. It leaves a permanent stain that proves to everyone that "yes, I am an idiot". However, if you redeem yourself from being an idiot, say temporary lapse of judgement, you can have the stain removed. You must PROVE your worthiness first.

Long answer: It's not that everyone is stupid, it's just that most people have temporary lapses in judgement that causes the idiot syndrome. Anyone in retail knows about that. It's like logic just flys out the window.

[Lagmonster]

And some people wonder why I don't worry about appearing blue-collar or un-intellectual by swearing, participating in "immature" activities, and generally behaving naturally, rather than acting like an "intellectual".

Along the same lines, when I'm out with my friends, you could stand at the bar, stare into the crowd, and not have a clue from their social behaviour what each person did for a living. A guy tanking himself on beer and making really *dumb* pickup lines at a beautiful woman is a highly respected virologist. A woman expensivly dressed and displaying a haughty and professional poise wasn't smart enough to graduate from high school. I don't think you can conclude that one's...attitude, if you will, and one's intelligence are linked.

[weemadando]

One of my favourite quotes (I don't remember where from originally, but I still won't claim it as my own) "Make something idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot."

[Zoink]

I think most people (even the ones with 100+ IQ) are illogical by nature. We base many of our decisions on perceived patterns; by what seems reasonable; by what makes us comfortable. I think the stupid people are the ones that are unable to understand why they are making a particular decision.


A percieved pattern vs logic test:) If I flipped a coin a bunch of times and recorded heads "H" and tails "T", which series is more likely between:

(1) HTHHTHTHHTTH
(2) HHHHHTHHHHHT

Or between the series:

(3) HTHTHTHHTHTH
(4) HHHHHHHHHH

[Chris Walker]

I don't think you can conclude that one's...attitude, if you will, and one's intelligence are linked.

Agreed, definitely not. I don't really include occasional lapses of judgement as necessarily indicating 'idiot status', either - like saying/doing stupid things now and again. We're all fallible, after all. It's when a person consistently behaves in an irrational and dickheaded fashion that you could say you have a genuine idiot on your hands, eg. Flat-Earthers, Creationists, racists, etc. Give them the benefit of the doubt to begin with, then let the evidence mount against them...

[Master of Ossus]

The average American for whom the entertainment industry caters is a 26 year old adult male who is 20 pounds overweight and consumes 13.25 beers every single week. The average American is an idiot.

[Chris Walker]

We base many of our decisions on perceived patterns; by what seems reasonable; by what makes us comfortable.

Yep, that's why most people who play the lottery don't seem to understand that the probability of a combination like 1,2,3,4,5,6 is the same as any other 6-figure combination for this game. They will tend to insist on scattering numbers much more evenly through the range allowed (1 to 50 in the UK), thinking it gives them a better chance of winning. ("Surely 1,2,3,4,5,6 is much less likely? All the numbers are bunched up!").

[Crown]

To answer the thread question; yes. One only has to look at pop-culture to see that. And don't even get me started on fads....

[Datana]

There are just too many fools in the world to really do anything about them. Even intellectual geniuses can buy into pseudoscience and scams easily, and most people simply don't pay enough attention to what's going on around them to really begin thinking. The number of people I know of who buy into things like Feng Shui and psychics scares me. College is the first place in my life where the "idiot ratio" seems to have gone down, but maybe that's just the group I usually keep company with.

[Majin Gojira]

Yes, their are a lot os stupid people in the world.

However, everyone is "Stupid" in some area. it's best not to claim that one knows stuff in that area - IE Avoid Hypocracy.

[haas mark]

Do you guys think the normal, average person understands proper logic and how to argue their side in a debate? I mean, we all make fun of the Creationists/Fundamentalists and diehard Trekkies here, but the majority of people I've argued with in a lot of other places seem just as god damn stupid.

I'm of the opinion that 'god damn stupid' is a very accurate description of the mental abilities of most people online and in real life. I tend to attribute this to an education system which has been dumbed down for political purposes: after all, idiots will vote for anyone.

ditto.

[Tsyroc]

Half of the population has an IQ above 100. The other half has an IQ below 100. Half of the population really is stupid.

Unfortunately, that half tends to control our entertainment industry, so it brainwashes much of the other half into emulating its thinking. The education system is supposed to counteract this, but it often does a piss-poor job (after all, too many teachers belong to the wrong half).

I think with the education system you also have to factor in how inherently lazy humans are. This impacts the teaching and the students. So if you have a stupid & lazy teacher teaching a stupid & lazy student...you have the worst elements of the U.S. being churned out.

Actually, the truly worst elements of the U.S. would included stupid & lazy parents in that scenario as well. The more layers you add the worse it gets. Natual selection has been illiminated to too much of a degree.

[Alferd Packer]

Eh, I think most people could stand to take a discrete mathematics class or two.

[Stravo]

In think that we can't look upon the vast mass of stupid people as a relatively new phenomenum. This has existed throughout time. There's a reason why kings were able to get people to follow them, they told them "Hey the reason why I'm allowed to rule you is divine right of kings...god says so." That sounds pretty stupid to me. We cannot fall into the falacy that only now are there such a great unwashed...hell that phrase comes from medieval times...the vast majority of people have always been rather dumb. As a history major way back in my college days, I began to see things in the bigger picture. There are no new trends, no new way of looking things, just a new generation looking at the same old problems.

Stupid people have been around since the beggining. The same humans who discovered fire had quite a few unfortunates who incinerated themselves in the process. We're noticing them now the same way the nobility looked around at their peasants, the same way the village shaman looked around at his tribe and they all shook their heads and muttered to themsleves "I'm surrounded by frickin' idiots!"

[Kelly Antilles]

I think with the education system you also have to factor in how inherently lazy humans are. This impacts the teaching and the students. So if you have a stupid & lazy teacher teaching a stupid & lazy student...you have the worst elements of the U.S. being churned out.

Actually, the truly worst elements of the U.S. would included stupid & lazy parents in that scenario as well. The more layers you add the worse it gets. Natual selection has been illiminated to too much of a degree.

Oh definately. The education system in the US reeks. They essently only teach what is going to be on the state and national tests. That's it! They don't go beyond that.

Children aren't taught right from wrong anymore because the parents are afraid. They know that the second they discipline their child, they will be brought up on abuse charges. It's overkill. The finger pointers are so numerous and think they are in the right all the time, when in actuality they are only making things worse.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

There are this idiots, and the idiots that don't use their brains. Some people are really smart, but things like common sense don't factor to them. It also seems that while the population on the whole gets smarter, kids these days are stupider. Try going to a school and asking kids questions that you knew when you were their age. I haven't tried it, though. Part of the blame is the schools, by most of it goes to the parents that sit their kids in fornt of the TV all day when they're babies, divorce when the kids are young, don't tell them what' right and what's wrong, don't mind if they're obese, spoil them, and don't motivate them to get of their asses. That's why when you see a stupid kid, they're stupid, IMFUO.

Another thing that makes someone look like an idiot are grades. A grade is not a measure of how smart you are, IMO, it just measures how well you listen, and guessing. Once, in my English class, I was tested in "proper headings", and I'm sure that brought my test grade down a letter.