churches

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-06-25 12:34pm

should they be taxed?

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2003-06-25 12:39pm

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-06-25 01:09pm

why? shouldnt government and church be kept seperate?

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-06-25 01:23pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:why? shouldnt government and church be kept seperate?

You're shooting in the wrong range, cowboy.

The Church should stay out of DECISIONS of the government - ie how to govern, how to spend its money, etc. Likewise, the governmet should stay out of the Church's decisions - ie which god to pray to, how to spend ITS money, etc.

That's how most people look at the separation issue. However, I can't see a single reason why the church shouldn't pay income taxes. I don't know a thing about a church's finances, so I don't even know if they pay property taxes.

The way I figure it, people go there and pay for a service (a place to pray). The church can give as much of the money it takes in to legit charity as it wants, tax free. Anything it keeps for itself to run its own operation, pay tithes to Rome, hire underage male hookers, whatever, should be taxed as legitimate business income.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-25 01:54pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:why? shouldnt government and church be kept seperate?

Indeed, they should have no legal tax exempt status granted by your government. Your IRS should tax them as they tax everything else.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-06-25 02:02pm

No, I don't think they should be taxed.

Granted, there ARE churches that are runned like business and the people running them make out like bandits and they should be put up against a wall and quickly sent to their "reward," but taxing churches or synagogues or what have you would be more detrimental than good.

Ideally speaking there should be no motive for profit in a church when it is collecting donations. Those donations go towards the cost of maintaining a place of worship, charity works, missions and paying the church staff what should be a sufficient means of sustenance.

If you do start taxing the church (not only are you going to piss off a lot of people), but those donations would probably have to become mandatory in order to sustain operations and it would become a business rather than a religion. Pay to pray?! Remember, donations are VOLUNTARY.

Also, most churches are dirt poor and can barely pay their operating costs anyways.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-06-25 03:02pm

Trytostaydead wrote:No, I don't think they should be taxed.

Granted, there ARE churches that are runned like business and the people running them make out like bandits and they should be put up against a wall and quickly sent to their "reward," but taxing churches or synagogues or what have you would be more detrimental than good.

Ideally speaking there should be no motive for profit in a church when it is collecting donations. Those donations go towards the cost of maintaining a place of worship, charity works, missions and paying the church staff what should be a sufficient means of sustenance.

If you do start taxing the church (not only are you going to piss off a lot of people), but those donations would probably have to become mandatory in order to sustain operations and it would become a business rather than a religion. Pay to pray?! Remember, donations are VOLUNTARY.

Also, most churches are dirt poor and can barely pay their operating costs anyways.

So I guess dirt poor individuals should be exempt from taxes.

Right?

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2003-06-25 03:08pm

No, the church I go to, although gigantic, is barely making enough money to pay for everyone that works there and keep everything running, and we're a big church. You put a tax in there as well and everything goes to hell.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-06-25 03:13pm

Trytostaydead wrote:If you do start taxing the church (not only are you going to piss off a lot of people), but those donations would probably have to become mandatory in order to sustain operations and it would become a business rather than a religion. Pay to pray?! Remember, donations are VOLUNTARY.

Doesn't matter how they get it. The money they make is still revenue. In every respect they operate just LIKE a business, except instead of upfront demanding you hand over money, they use guilt and the pressure of your fellow parishioners staring at you as they pass the plate around to get you to ante up.

Also, most churches are dirt poor and can barely pay their operating costs anyways.

So are most people. So what? Besides which, I've been to a lot of small towns where the people live in small shacks and forty-year-old bunaglows and trailers, but the town church is ALWAYS a huge, ornate, well-kept affair. I'm sure they aren't exactly drenched in poverty.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-06-25 03:16pm

Captain_Cyran wrote:No, the church I go to, although gigantic, is barely making enough money to pay for everyone that works there and keep everything running, and we're a big church. You put a tax in there as well and everything goes to hell.

...leaving out the fact that it's not the government's problem if you parish-goers are too cheap to toss in an extra buck to help pay for the plumbing. That may sound awful to you, but no one cries when the local convenience store goes teats up for want of customers, and I'd argue that they provide a better service to the community than the church does.

Frankly, I say it's the parish's job to pay to have a church. Otherwise, they can organize and pray in their homes or in the park.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2003-06-25 03:20pm

Lagmonster wrote:
Captain_Cyran wrote:No, the church I go to, although gigantic, is barely making enough money to pay for everyone that works there and keep everything running, and we're a big church. You put a tax in there as well and everything goes to hell.
...leaving out the fact that it's not the government's problem if you parish-goers are too cheap to toss in an extra buck to help pay for the plumbing. That may sound awful to you, but no one cries when the local convenience store goes teats up for want of customers, and I'd argue that they provide a better service to the community than the church does.

Either way there is no need for the tax as most churches will eventually go belly-up on their own. Fewer young adults are heading out to church, leaving just the old farts in their 80's and 90's who are soon gonna die. Taxes are just gonna kill churches faster.

No one cares about the local convenience store because there is the big Jubilee down the street, when a church goes under the closest one to you that is your denomination is probably a good 10 miles more out of the way.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-06-25 03:24pm

As Mike said, if Churches can't be taxed, can Bill Gates declare the Microsoft religon and stop paying taxes?

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2003-06-25 03:27pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:As Mike said, if Churches can't be taxed, can Bill Gates declare the Microsoft religon and stop paying taxes?

If he can get some believers.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-06-25 03:45pm

Captain_Cyran wrote:
Lagmonster wrote:
Captain_Cyran wrote:No, the church I go to, although gigantic, is barely making enough money to pay for everyone that works there and keep everything running, and we're a big church. You put a tax in there as well and everything goes to hell.
...leaving out the fact that it's not the government's problem if you parish-goers are too cheap to toss in an extra buck to help pay for the plumbing. That may sound awful to you, but no one cries when the local convenience store goes teats up for want of customers, and I'd argue that they provide a better service to the community than the church does.
Either way there is no need for the tax as most churches will eventually go belly-up on their own. Fewer young adults are heading out to church, leaving just the old farts in their 80's and 90's who are soon gonna die. Taxes are just gonna kill churches faster.

No one cares about the local convenience store because there is the big Jubilee down the street, when a church goes under the closest one to you that is your denomination is probably a good 10 miles more out of the way.

Do what Lagmonster suggested and sit outside. Or rent a hall.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-06-25 03:50pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:As Mike said, if Churches can't be taxed, can Bill Gates declare the Microsoft religon and stop paying taxes?

Yes, and then the government can declare its a cult spreading illegal damaging products such as windows and send in the ATF or FBI to raid there headquarters and haul off the employees for deprogramming.

Jawawithagun · Post by **Jawawithagun** » 2003-06-25 05:31pm

Captain_Cyran wrote:No one cares about the local convenience store because there is the big Jubilee down the street, when a church goes under the closest one to you that is your denomination is probably a good 10 miles more out of the way.

You're SO wrong, cap! Some people actually are rather fond of the smaller shops with real people instead of mindless drones.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-06-25 06:47pm

Yes...

By giving them tax exempt status even though they make a profit, you are giving them special status, and violating the establishment clause...

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2003-06-25 07:00pm

Churches should be treated the same as any other nonprofit or for-profit organization. To do anything else violates the anti-establishment clause.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-06-25 07:09pm

The reason churches were exempted from being income taxed, is the same reason newspapers were exempt from sales tax. The bill of rights. There was a ruling, (reversed) that churches were going to have to treat the priests/pastors/reverands/WHATEVERS salarie as taxable, to include the living on church premisses as a form of monetary compensation. And Taxed AS income.(at fair market value, thus quadrupling the taxable money amount above and beyond the stipend. Rent, by the square foot, at the going rate in the neighborhood)It was reversed at a higher court, because this would bankrup all but the biggest, and most heavily funded religions, thus, the government would be favouring one church over an other.Some very old churches are poor, with low cash flow, but sit on land that is now worth millions, because they owned it for a LONG time, and it was dirt cheap when they bought it, or STAKED A CLAIM. Yes, some churches are that old.Some churches were the FIRST building in town built that is still standing. In neighborhoods they could never aford to be in, if they tried to move in in todays price of land purchase/rental.

Got a paper you don't like the editorial slant of?
Tax the sale of said paper, and reduce it's circulation, or bankrupt it.
Ta DAH! You have silenced you opposition, without aresting them, and having that inconvenient free speach thing get in your way.
The same theory was behind income taxing churches. This was a potential way to favour churches through the back door, something political minded one are always scheming to do. Very much like zoning ordinances to make porno/stripjoints legal, but unlawful without the proper permit.(Like "Adult business' must be 2000 feet minimum from any church, school, or place frequented by minors." Most citys, this leaves nowhere in inside city limits in compliance. It has been struck dowm, by the supreme court, as a backdoor way of banning.)
Don't think the government wouldn't try to do that now? Think Utah. Think level of funding. Think TYTHEING. Think nothing but mormon churches being able to pay the taxes.

By the way, churches DO pay taxes.
They pay property taxes, and sales taxes.
Just not income taxes.
Just like every other non profit organisation does.

Churches get taxed, when they meddle in polotics too much, and get their "tax exempt" status revoked, just like charities.

Edit, PS.

The only difference between a church, and other nonprofit orgs, is that church, unlike United Way, ect.., is the living money, or housing allowance, or place in the back where the monk lives, is not taxable income.The salaries of all employees, of profit, nonprofit, church, and government, is consided taxable. Not the income to the nonprofit/church.
"Motel money" for charities is taxed, but for church people it is not.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-06-25 07:21pm

Yes, and then we can give larger tax cuts to everybody else.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-06-25 07:24pm

I believe that non profit orgs, that are not churches, were granted tax exempt status precisely because of the non establishment clause.
It was tax the churches, or allow NP orgs to share the wealth.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-06-25 10:20pm

I don't think Churches should get special treatment, but if they really are struggling and aren't businesses, they can get themselves declared a non-profit orginization.

DarthBlight · Post by **DarthBlight** » 2003-06-25 11:19pm

Last I checked (at least here in Ohio), churches do not pay property taxes. This is generally a bad thing, since a lot of churches are getting quite large (I seriously doubt they fill all of their seats, the thought must be if it's built, they will come) and taking up prime commercial land that would otherwise be taken by businesses that would put money into the local government's coffers. Churches, being tax-exempt, pay no property taxes, which ends up taking money away from the local government.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-06-25 11:30pm

Tax them, I say! Tax them until they bleed!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-06-25 11:57pm

If a church is legitimately non-profit, I'm sure they can document their finances. If not, then they should be treated as any other profitable organization would be.

PS. Churches almost never die, no matter how unpopular or shitty they are. This should tell you something about how they are unfairly propped up by the government while everything else around them is subject to the rules of the marketplace.