Infiltrate and Subvert

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-25 11:42am

The Empire and Federation come into contact much as they do in the first few chapters of Mike's "Conquest" fanfic.

Key difference: On the advice of Federation intelligence officers (see Mike's Strategic Evaluation of Extra-Galactic Empire) and the eminently logical Vulcans, the Federation council chooses to surrender to the Empire rather than fight a war they can't possibly win.

They immediately set Section 31 and other intelligence resources with the task of infiltrating the Imperial military and government with the objective of subverting the Empire through political methods, since military resistance isn't a realistic option. Priorities are to contact resistance factions in the Empire, obtain technology, and identify strategic targets.

What are the Federation's chances of success in such an endeavor. Will anything resembling the 24th century Federation ever arise again? If so, how long would such an effort likely take? What methods will the Federation likely use in their insurgency campaign?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-06-25 12:20pm

Goal: Contact The Rebellion/New Republic.

Likely outcome: Toppling of Palpatine.

While the Federation can't offer much technologically, their knowledge of 'rough terrain' in their own space will be useful for hiding stockpiles and small construction facilities. With a little added industry, the Rebellion will duplicate Endor. The Federation comes off better in the long run, as it becomes part of the New Republic as the Empire collapses under it's own weight, and gets nifty tech. The subjugation of those species not intelligent enough to surrender to the Empire will only help them.

If it's later(Hand Of Thrawn/NJO era), the Federation may not even see reason to fight for long. Pelleaon is a good guy, and once they get over the culture shock, all will probably be well.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-25 12:28pm

Section 31 is not answerable to the Federation Council, they are a rogue agency.

The Empire has a plethora of intelligence agencies however, who are all as competant as 31, and would quickly root out and crush the federation effort. The fed council will disapear for daring to order such a thing.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-25 02:38pm

NecronLord wrote:Section 31 is not answerable to the Federation Council, they are a rogue agency.

Rogue or not, they have to get their funding from somewhere, so someone in the Federation goverment has to know about them.

NecronLord wrote:The Empire has a plethora of intelligence agencies however, who are all as competant as 31, and would quickly root out and crush the federation effort. The fed council will disapear for daring to order such a thing.

The Federation Council expects to "disappear" anyway. The Empire will replace them with its own government system, most likely a regional governor or "Moff".

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-25 03:06pm

Ted C wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Section 31 is not answerable to the Federation Council, they are a rogue agency.
Rogue or not, they have to get their funding from somewhere, so someone in the Federation goverment has to know about them.

They could simply have a romulan style generator in a nebula making all the power and matter they require. And certainly Sloan has made it clear that they don't take orders from the federation.

NecronLord wrote:The Empire has a plethora of intelligence agencies however, who are all as competant as 31, and would quickly root out and crush the federation effort. The fed council will disapear for daring to order such a thing.
The Federation Council expects to "disappear" anyway. The Empire will replace them with its own government system, most likely a regional governor or "Moff".

Still the net effect will be zero as the ubiquitorate rounds them all up and excecutes them.

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » 2003-06-25 05:11pm

For all its efforts on the counter-intelligence/espionage front, the empire doesn't seem to get good results at all - in ANH the youth of Tatooine were openly talking about the Rebellion, sympathetic to it (no effective Imperial counter-propoganda) and seemed to be confident about knowing how to go about making contact and joining it.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-25 05:24pm

NecronLord wrote:
Ted C wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Section 31 is not answerable to the Federation Council, they are a rogue agency.
Rogue or not, they have to get their funding from somewhere, so someone in the Federation goverment has to know about them.

They could simply have a romulan style generator in a nebula making all the power and matter they require. And certainly Sloan has made it clear that they don't take orders from the federation.

What are the limits of a "Romulan-style generator"? How hard is it to create one of those artificial singularities they use? Does the Federation even know enough about the technology to build and operate one themselves? You're making a pretty wild claim about both Romulan power sources and Section 31's knowledge of them.

Section 31 may not officially take orders from the Federation, but they still get resources from the Federation somehow. Somebody holds their purse strings. It hardly matters who, anway. If they know that the Federation government is going to surrender and that their last order was to initiate a resistance movement, Section 31 one will play along because that's supposedly their entire reason for existence: to preserve the Federation by any means necessary.

NecronLord wrote:

NecronLord wrote:The Empire has a plethora of intelligence agencies however, who are all as competant as 31, and would quickly root out and crush the federation effort. The fed council will disapear for daring to order such a thing.
The Federation Council expects to "disappear" anyway. The Empire will replace them with its own government system, most likely a regional governor or "Moff".
Still the net effect will be zero as the ubiquitorate rounds them all up and excecutes them.

If it's your position that the Empire's counter-intelligence services are more than a match for anything the Federation can put together, fine; just say so. All the extra babbling about Section 31 enclaves with Romulan generators would then be unnecessary.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-25 09:48pm

The Third Man wrote:For all its efforts on the counter-intelligence/espionage front, the empire doesn't seem to get good results at all - in ANH the youth of Tatooine were openly talking about the Rebellion, sympathetic to it (no effective Imperial counter-propoganda) and seemed to be confident about knowing how to go about making contact and joining it.

Tatooine is a backwater planet with hardly any Imperial force. [Tarkin]Too remote to make an effective demonstration.[/Tarkin]

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-26 04:24am

Ted C wrote: What are the limits of a "Romulan-style generator"? How hard is it to create one of those artificial singularities they use? Does the Federation even know enough about the technology to build and operate one themselves? You're making a pretty wild claim about both Romulan power sources and Section 31's knowledge of them.

The Ent D replicated one in "The Next Phase."

Section 31 may not officially take orders from the Federation, but they still get resources from the Federation somehow. Somebody holds their purse strings.

"The economics of the future are somewhat different"

It hardly matters who, anway. If they know that the Federation government is going to surrender and that their last order was to initiate a resistance movement,

They don't get orders remember.

And I should remind you that for all we know there's only one guy in section 31. It's small enough to never be noticed.

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » 2003-06-26 04:37am

It's not local force that should be used to surpress this sort of talk; it's the intelligence/secret police/propagandists job. And it's not a matter of what's happening locally, these agencies have to function galaxy-wide, so that backwaters can't find out about Rebellions and how to join them.

Anyway, we have the example of Alderaan, presumably not a backwater, since Tarkin deemed it acceptably located for his 'demonstration'. Here's a planet with such a large proportion of the population rebel-sympathetic that the Empire decided it was acceptable to blow the whole thing up.

So between Alderaan and Tatooine we have a Rebellion which is known from the core worlds to the backwaters, despite the best efforts of Imperial intelligence.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-26 04:42am

Did you miss the informant that grassed them up the second they actually did something other than talk?

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » 2003-06-26 05:50am

NecronLord wrote: Did you miss the informant that grassed them up the second they actually did something other than talk?

Yes I did!

Unless you're thinking of the Cantina scene when Luke and Ben hire Solo? Yes, they did get grassed. I was refering to earlier scenes on Tatooine. Lukes conversation with the droids when he's working on them indicates he knows about the Rebellion.

Lukes mate, Biggs, talked with Luke about joining the Rebellion, and lo and behold, at the end of ANH, there he is, fighting for the Rebellion without having been grassed up, taken away in the night etc

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-26 05:57am

Later, the guy with the hood and the trunk.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-06-26 07:16am

you know this could work but it requires the Rebellion taking them seriously. It is also the smartest thing to do instead of what they do do in the story "Conquest." They(i hope I am not giving away too much if you haven't read it yet) try to steal a Rebel ship to use it for a special mission. So trying to be honest with the Rebels and acually working with them just might get them some results.

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » 2003-06-26 08:20am

NecronLord wrote: Later, the guy with the hood and the trunk.

Yeah OK, I recall hood & trunk. But he didn't seem to be employed by counter-intelligence, he just reported to the local stormtroopers (who then ran in with guns blazing) At this point the alarm was well and truly out for Ben, Luke and Droids, so it's really a local police matter and a small-time grass helping them out, not indicative of a sophisticated and effective intelligence agency a la the KGB which can root out internal dissidents when they're at the stage of just talking.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-06-26 08:59am

Tatooine is Outer Mongolia to the Empire's Soviet Union. It's not somewhere they even have a presence normally. Why WOULD they have a serious intelligence network in place on a largely-empty dustball of a planet?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-26 10:24am

The Third Man wrote:
NecronLord wrote: Later, the guy with the hood and the trunk.
Yeah OK, I recall hood & trunk. But he didn't seem to be employed by counter-intelligence, he just reported to the local stormtroopers (who then ran in with guns blazing) At this point the alarm was well and truly out for Ben, Luke and Droids, so it's really a local police matter and a small-time grass helping them out, not indicative of a sophisticated and effective intelligence agency a la the KGB which can root out internal dissidents when they're at the stage of just talking.

According the the EU his name's Garindan (IIRC), and he's a paid informant.

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » 2003-06-26 10:25am

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:Tatooine is Outer Mongolia to the Empire's Soviet Union. It's not somewhere they even have a presence normally. Why WOULD they have a serious intelligence network in place on a largely-empty dustball of a planet?

It's not me that's maintaining that there is a serious intelligence network present on Tatooine. I'm saying that there probably isn't and that Hood & Trunk is no evidence of a super-effective Imperial intel organisation.

What I am saying about Tatooine is:

1) Tatooine demonstrates that the Empire's counter-intelligence/propaganda machine isn't all-powerful.

2) It's the only example I'm aware of where we see 'ordinary' youths in conversation, subversive talk may not be limited to Tatooine, it may be rife throughout the Empire.

3) If Tatooine is the Empires Outer Mongolia this shows that the Imperial intelligence organisations were not effective in containing or countering the spread of rebel sentiments, since the Rebellion originated in the core worlds.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-26 10:28am

OK then. Heres one for you. Prove superior competance of S31 and Starfleet Intel. Particularly in this instance as they have to get past a wormhole that would be crawing with imperial agents.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2003-06-26 11:04am

[Tarkin]Too remote to make an effective demonstration.[/Tarkin]

Tarkin was talking about Dantooine...It was not Tatooine Leia old him about...when pressing the answer from here, she thought about the given-up rebel base at dantooine(which was later settled by some dudes from a mine planet but thats unimportant; Daala Trilogy), and she also named it...she never said anything about Tatooine to Grand Moff Tarkin

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-06-26 11:13am

Lex wrote:
[Tarkin]Too remote to make an effective demonstration.[/Tarkin]
Tarkin was talking about Dantooine...It was not Tatooine Leia old him about...when pressing the answer from here, she thought about the given-up rebel base at dantooine(which was later settled by some dudes from a mine planet but thats unimportant; Daala Trilogy), and she also named it...she never said anything about Tatooine to Grand Moff Tarkin

Relax. He knows. Take it in context.

The Third Man · Post by **The Third Man** » 2003-06-26 12:25pm

NecronLord wrote: According the the EU his name's Garindan (IIRC), and he's a paid informant

Cheers. Starwars.com confirms, and also refers to him by the even more insulting moniker 'Long Snoot'. Doesn't say specifically who he's an informant for though.

NecronLord wrote: OK then. Heres one for you. Prove superior competance of S31 and Starfleet Intel. Particularly in this instance as they have to get past a wormhole that would be crawing with imperial agents.

Oooo-er! Difficult one - I mean it's not like comparing weapons power is it? What's the unit of measure for underhanded-ness anyway?

I'll have to think about this.

But the main point I wanted to make is that although the Empire has (a lot of) intelligence assets they aren't perfect.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-06-26 12:25pm

I imagine that if S31 got to be too big a pain in the Imperial's asses, and the usual intellegence forces couldn't cut it, Palpatine would give it o the Inquisitors to handle.

Then they are fucked.

Force sensitive Jedi/anyone important but on the run Hunter Killers, who have personal ISDs and can call down any resources they require... try running from that.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-06-26 12:32pm

Ender wrote:I imagine that if S31 got to be too big a pain in the Imperial's asses, and the usual intellegence forces couldn't cut it, Palpatine would give it o the Inquisitors to handle.

Then they are fucked.

Force sensitive Jedi/anyone important but on the run Hunter Killers, who have personal ISDs and can call down any resources they require... try running from that.

The Rebellion, the people the Feds will be finding before starting trouble, certainly managed...

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-06-26 12:45pm

SirNitram wrote:
Ender wrote:I imagine that if S31 got to be too big a pain in the Imperial's asses, and the usual intellegence forces couldn't cut it, Palpatine would give it o the Inquisitors to handle.

Then they are fucked.

Force sensitive Jedi/anyone important but on the run Hunter Killers, who have personal ISDs and can call down any resources they require... try running from that.
The Rebellion, the people the Feds will be finding before starting trouble, certainly managed...

The Inquisitors were never hunting the Rebels. Palpatine had them searching for force sensitives. And Vader was looking for Luke personally, so they were not given the task.