Frequency and Energy Weapons

[CaptJodan]

Ok, I don't really know where to put this. On the one hand, it's science...but on the other...it's a sorta vs thing...so if it's moved elsewhere, I'll understand, but I have questions, so here it shall be posted.

I was told today this: "but aside from the fact that I think you're forgetting the basic principle that unless energy is phased, it has to work on a set frequency (which isn't really an argument on Borg, but rather an argument on the principles behind energy weapons)"

I'm somewhat confused by this statement. Does all energy work on a phase? I thought reading this site told me that not everything had to be phased, aka shields and I thought turbolasers as well. I know that turbolasers would rip through Borg hulls, because their power output greatly exceeds the Borg's ability to adapt. Let's say, however, that they didn't have that kind of power. Are they still a phased weapon, or is the Tibana gas (or whatver gas it is transformed into when fired) the part that acts on a ship, therefore it would have no frequency, or is there something else I'm missing.

[CaptJodan]

Sorry, I meant does all energy WEAPONS work on frequency or phase? Still hard to answer from a real world perspective, since, as far as I know, we have very few energy weapons at our disposal.

[Darth Wong]

I suggest you learn basic wave mechanics before trying to discuss it.

[Ted C]

The following waveforms have different frequencies:

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/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\


 /\  /\  /\  /\
/  \/  \/  \/  \

The following have the same frequency but are out of phase:

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 /\  /\  /\  /\
/  \/  \/  \/  \

/\  /\  /\  /\  
  \/  \/  \/  \/

Make sense?

The following have the same frequency and are in phase with each other

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 /\  /\  /\  /\
/  \/  \/  \/  \

 /\  /\  /\  /\
/  \/  \/  \/  \

[BoredShirtless]

Sorry, I meant does all energy WEAPONS work on frequency or phase? Still hard to answer from a real world perspective, since, as far as I know, we have very few energy weapons at our disposal.

Think of the output from an energy weapon as a signal. That signal will oscillate around a certain frequency. Frequency is the number of times a signal completes a cycle in say one second. Phase refers to the position of a point [in time] on the signals cycle. Imagine at 10pm you measured the signal. At 11pm, you measured it again and the second measurement was 90 degrees out of phase with your first measurement. If you like math, dive into signal theory. If you don't like math, you'll probably do what I did at my lectures: snooze

[CaptJodan]

Alright, I understand now, thanks. Unfortunately, I'm horrible at math, although I wish I wasn't.

It looks to me, via Ted's diagram (thanks for that, that really helps to explain it), that you would have to not only match weapon frequency, but would also have to have a phase shift opposite that of the frequency you've got matched up. (I think that's exactly what the site says, too) If that's correct, then it's kinda odd that we never hear anyone saying "Match frequency and phase of the said target" on the show.

[BoredShirtless]

Alright, I understand now, thanks. Unfortunately, I'm horrible at math, although I wish I wasn't.

It looks to me, via Ted's diagram (thanks for that, that really helps to explain it), that you would have to not only match weapon frequency, but would also have to have a phase shift opposite that of the frequency you've got matched up. (I think that's exactly what the site says, too) If that's correct, then it's kinda odd that we never hear anyone saying "Match frequency and phase of the said target" on the show.

TedC's diagram was a perfect sinusoid. Output from energy weapons are never perfect sinusoids. This means you cannot block one frequency to stop a ST Phaser: you'd need to block a BAND of frequencies.

[CaptJodan]

Are there a limited number of "bands" that exist, or is the amount of bands capable pretty much infinate, especially in combination. (I've always wondered why Federation weapons can't modulate randomly enough so that their weapons are more effective against the Borg)

[Darth Wong]

Are there a limited number of "bands" that exist, or is the amount of bands capable pretty much infinate, especially in combination. (I've always wondered why Federation weapons can't modulate randomly enough so that their weapons are more effective against the Borg)

A "band" is just a region in the frequency spectrum. Depending on how narrow that band is, you can have more or less bands in the same range of frequencies. Also, you can have an arbitrary number of bands if you are willing to use extremely high frequencies.

However, you will eventually run into the limitations of the device itself. Since it is exceedingly doubtful that a phaser can generate energy with any frequency, it's probably limited to a specific frequency band already, and modulation merely moves its emission spectrum around within that range.

Therefore, the Borg can adapt to it by simply optimzing their shields to the general range of the phasers. A reasonable theory to explain Borg adaptation is that very large alterations to the frequency of the phaser cannot be performed with a simple adjustment, and require some physical alteration of the device (note that this is precisely what Picard was doing in STFC while he was talking to Lily). So once the Borg get some general idea of how the phasers are configured, they can optimize for that general frequency range and the weapons become useless unless they can be heavily modified; something which is possible between battles but not in the middle of a battle.

Of course, this begs the question of why the Feddies don't physically modify their phasers so that there are, say, a half-dozen different preconfigured types in a given squad. But we may be able to chalk that up to rank incompetence.

[Howedar]

It is somewhat forgivable in the first combat with the Borg, as they could not have planned for an enemy with the Borg's ability to frequency-adapt. However, certainly in subsequent engagements Starfleet should have had such weapons.

[Isolder74]

There is more to frequencies that meets the eye. There several types of wave forms. There are simple sine waves, Sawtooth waves, and square Waves amoung others. You have asked the right man for this one as I am a Electronics Engineer and have to know the because it is required for the use of radios and signel ampliphiers.

First we will start with the simpliest wave form, a Sine Wave.
A sine moves up and down like a water wave with smooth round peaks and troughs. It is a sine wave that is the basis of both AM radio anf FM Radio(a TV signal is a combo of both AM anf FM). AM Stands for Amplitude Modulation while FM stands for Frequency Modulation. The Three parts of a sine wave's statistics are Amplitude, Frequency, and Wavelength. The Amplitude is the height of the wave from the center(rest position), the Frequency is how many waves pass a point in one second, and the Wavelength is the distance from two features on the wave of the same type(top peak tp top peak, center to center, ect). The Wavelength and the Frequency are inversly related. A carrier wave is any wave that carries a signal on it like music for example. A AM signal amplitude follows the information's signal across it. A FM Signal needs a bandwidth because it is the frequency that slightly changes over a certain bandwidth that is defined by the FCC. It appears that Phasers use a type of FM system to send the energy to the target to kill or stun the target. This type of wave the Borg could adapt to.

A Sawtooth wave looks like this VVVVVVV\
It is actually a combination of several frequencies centering around the main frequencis on a certain mathimatical ratio(I have to look that up)
The way it behaves is like this the energy of the signal ramps up to the peak a certain rate and then ramps down at the same rate. This type of wave the Borg could adapt to.

A Square Wave Is a Combination of a frequency and all of its harmonics. The most basic way to describe it would be to say it is a series of pulses. The signal is either high or low(or on or off). Digital systems are based on this wave. A pu;se of say a laser beam could be described as a Pseudo Square wave as is any pulse of energy.

Phase is the relationship of one wave to another wave of the frequency. As such multiple signals can be sent on the same frequency. Think of the face of a clock, each number of that clock could represent a phase of the frquency. There are two ways to do this, one is to generate the wave later than the first wave by a sertain amount of time. The Other(used on radio waves and your modem) it to change its angle in relation to the wave designated at the first wave in 3D rotational Space.

I hope that answers your questions for a better explaination E-Mail me and I will scan into my computer some diagrams from one of my reference books that will help explain this and E-mail them to you.

~Fixed Double Post

[ClaysGhost]

Alright, I understand now, thanks. Unfortunately, I'm horrible at math, although I wish I wasn't.

It looks to me, via Ted's diagram (thanks for that, that really helps to explain it), that you would have to not only match weapon frequency, but would also have to have a phase shift opposite that of the frequency you've got matched up. (I think that's exactly what the site says, too) If that's correct, then it's kinda odd that we never hear anyone saying "Match frequency and phase of the said target" on the show.

As BoredShitless said, it's impossible that phasers are a pure sinewave. Depending on exactly how "pure" the phaser beam is, the phase of the beam will vary more or less randomly, rather than be a single constant that can be manipulated easily.

I've got a nagging feeling that this is all backwards, anyway. Matching frequency lets the weapon penetrate the shields, but adding waves (assuming that for some reason shield and weapon waves "crash" rather than pass through each other like small-amplitude waves on a string) of the same frequency and opposite phase should cause them to cancel. The weapons fire should be blocked by the shield.

[Isolder74]

On this topic a Particle Beam would not have a frequency. This is beacause it is a beam of high energy, high speed matter.

A Laser would only have the frequency of the color of light you are using. Lasers are not Phase Coherent(polerized)

The Borg shouldn't be able to adapt to a Particle Cannon because it acts like a bullet in doing damage and Particle Beams are the best type of energy weapon for piercing armor.

[CaptJodan]

On this topic a Particle Beam would not have a frequency. This is beacause it is a beam of high energy, high speed matter.

A Laser would only have the frequency of the color of light you are using. Lasers are not Phase Coherent(polerized)

The Borg shouldn't be able to adapt to a Particle Cannon because it acts like a bullet in doing damage and Particle Beams are the best type of energy weapon for piercing armor.

That's very helpful, about the Particle Beam issue of weapons. It basically means that not ALL energy weapons have a frequency. But I believe I'm beginning to understand that it would have a phase.

Aren't lasers Phase Coherent, as stated by Mr. Wong?

The first use of the Trekkie frequency myth is the common claim that the frequency and phase coherent of phasers makes them superior to lasers. Let's ignore for the moment that this is an inherently stupid claim since lasers are also phase and frequency coherent.....

Or are you saying that they are not phase coherent when polorized?

I guess this stuff just is beyond me, and I should stay out of things I can't understand. However, I am simply trying to learn, and some of it has been very helpful from all the information put down.

[ClaysGhost]

On this topic a Particle Beam would not have a frequency. This is beacause it is a beam of high energy, high speed matter.

Particles can be considered to have wavelengths, and some experiments have been done where a group of moving particles are compelled to have the same wavelength and phase ("atom lasers"). A traditional particle beam could be the equivalent of a torch - a big jumble of different wavelengths and random phases (although the energies of the particles are similar, so perhaps the spread in wavelengths is not vast).

A Laser would only have the frequency of the color of light you are using. Lasers are not Phase Coherent(polerized)

What do you mean? Lasers have non-zero bandwidth (usually a few tens of Hertz, IIRC).
Lasers are very spatially and temporally coherent. Polarisation has nothing to do with it.

The Borg shouldn't be able to adapt to a Particle Cannon because it acts like a bullet in doing damage and Particle Beams are the best type of energy weapon for piercing armor.

High energy photons are more likely to pass through the armour, but massive particles interacting via the strong force will dump more of their energy into the armour itself.

That's very helpful, about the Particle Beam issue of weapons. It basically means that not ALL energy weapons have a frequency.

"Energy weapon" is a very vague description, and a wide/useless category. You could describe a bullet as an energy weapon, for it kills with kinetic energy.

Aren't lasers Phase Coherent, as stated by Mr. Wong?

Yes, they are. Polarisation is irrelevant.

[BoredShirtless]

On this topic a Particle Beam would not have a frequency. This is beacause it is a beam of high energy, high speed matter.

Matter actually does oscillate. A stream of electrons will leave a diffraction pattern if sent through a diffraction grating.

A Laser would only have the frequency of the color of light you are using.

Not true, because:

1. There's a phenomenon called noise which distorts the output. Noise can come from many sources.

2. The channel [air, space, water; the medium you fire the weapon in] will interfere with the output.

This all means that lasers are described by a band or bands of frequencies in the frequency domain, although the colour does tell us what the carrier frequency is.

Lasers are not Phase Coherent(polerized)

Yeah they can be. What makes you say they can't? And what does polarization have to do with it?

The Borg shouldn't be able to adapt to a Particle Cannon because it acts like a bullet in doing damage and Particle Beams are the best type of energy weapon for piercing armor.

Adding to your point, a purely energy based weapon works by exploding/melting the target, through rapid heating.

[BoredShirtless]

I guess this stuff just is beyond me, and I should stay out of things I can't understand. However, I am simply trying to learn, and some of it has been very helpful from all the information put down.

If you don't want to wade through conflicting information, check out some uni websites.