Strom Thurmond - DEAD

[Howedar]

Go to hell, you stupid cunt.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Agreed. That's why I defended Manji when he attacked Wellstone. It doesn't absolve them of the bad--and it doesn't absolve them of the good, so to speak. Now, why the good counts for more in this case will be answered in response to Durandal's post.

But you spaz out now? So you admit the double standard.

Fucking give it up. Wellstone was not in the military; the actions I'm talking about involving Thurmond that give him the consideration I'm giving him were entirely due to his military service. Capiche? Besides that, I've already explained why--for two reasons--military service is a higher calling than political service.

[kojikun]

Go to hell, you stupid cunt.

aha! But that doesn't work cause i dont have a cunt, only a dick and an asshole. Now, calling me a dick or an asshole works. Cocksucker, faggot, queer, faerie, poofta, thats good too, because its applicable, but cunt doesn't work.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Now, Kojikun, I don't think Marina had that coming. While I think she's being a bit fuzzyheaded and dense on the issue (like a tennis ball packed with granite), let's not go overboard with the personal attacks, eh?

I dished them out, and I can take them, Gil.

[Coyote]

Gods, just shut up you stupid cunt.

Oh, such a clear and thought provoking argument.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

(What is Koji doing trying to match insults with ASVS veterans, anyway? I feel a bit like an adult holding a small child who's swinging his fists at me away from my body with one hand to his forehead, smiling and shaking my head in bemusement. You guys--you guys are the real debate now.)

[kojikun]

I dished them out, and I can take them, Gil.

Atleast you've got some sense about you.

Oh, such a clear and thought provoking argument.

I like how you erased everything I said before that. Nice move, dickwad.

[kojikun]

(What is Koji doing trying to match insults with ASVS veterans, anyway? I feel a bit like an adult holding a small child who's swinging his fists at me away from my body with one hand to his forehead, smiling and shaking my head in bemusement. You guys--you guys are the real debate now.)

Its how I normally talk. Might as well go into the navy, already curse like a drunken sailor

[Knife]

Jesus tap dancing Christ. Duchess, take a second and cool down. Kojikun, let the man be burried before throwing your party. Fucking A.

On alot of levels, Marina is right in that the man not only served but served in combat and served in the US Senate for 50 fucking years. I get the point that 50 fucking years ago, he championed some shitty stuff, but god damn it was 50 years ago. Are you trying to say that he has done nothing worth while since '48?

Ever heard of the 'moment of silence'? Give it a break for a few.

[Coyote]

Oh, such a clear and thought provoking argument.

I like how you erased everything I said before that. Nice move, dickwad.

That was the part that established your credibility, man-bitch.

[kojikun]

That was the part that established your credibility, man-bitch.

Perfect example of an ad hominem. Thank you.

[Knife]

Its how I normally talk. Might as well go into the navy, already curse like a drunken sailor

If you believe that, perhaps you really should join the Air Force.

[Gil Hamilton]

Fucking give it up. Wellstone was not in the military; the actions I'm talking about involving Thurmond that give him the consideration I'm giving him were entirely due to his military service. Capiche? Besides that, I've already explained why--for two reasons--military service is a higher calling than political service.

Your only big problem is that politics was Strom Thurmonds calling, more than anything else. Thurmond is no better than Wellstone, and doesn't deserve any more consideration than anyone else.

[Dark Hellion]

Koji, watch it. I was supporting your arguement but now your just being a whiney ass because you ran out of things to say on your own.
On the topic, he deserved both respect and critism. No one should say you can't give him both. Don't elevate soldiers to saints DOZ, if you do you may find that soldiers are you neighbors who have sex at night and leave the bedroom window open. They are human beings who have made an valient choice. This is only one of a trillion choices they will make however. One choice cannot define someone so much that they are immune from critism. As for you koji, don't act the part of a liberal jackass. It makes you look foolish and immature, however at your age I don't expect too much maturity.
Oh, and one other thing, stop the violence. Stop the violence. An old man died and debating how bad he was is not a good way to remember anyone, if he was so terrible don't talk about him and forget everything but his deeds. He needn't be named just remember that segregationalism was bad. Don't turn him into a jesus or a hitler, forever to be followed by moronic sheep who never knew the actual man but follow some bullshit idealogy of there fallen hero.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Your only big problem is that politics was Strom Thurmonds calling, more than anything else. Thurmond is no better than Wellstone, and doesn't deserve any more consideration than anyone else.

Like Durandal said, it isn't about mathematics. Strom Thurmond's life may have been about politics, but he still went and served his country, and risked his life for the whole nation, not just his own ideals. That moment of self-sacrifice carries above his political career.

[Coyote]

That was the part that established your credibility, man-bitch.

Perfect example of an ad hominem. Thank you.

You set the pace, I merely followed your established example.

Let's bear in mind that Thurmond served his country's principles well, actually. Segregation used to be acceptable and normal, and in some places tha feeling held on. I disagree with the feeling but Thurmond represnted those people. Part of Democratic principles in this nation is that everyone gets that right to representation.

As segregationist attitudes waned, Thurmond changed with the country-- kicking and screaming and years behind, but he continued to reflect and represent the population he'd been voted to serve. And they kept voting for him again and again.

He upheld the basic principles of democracy, which means that even people we find distasteful must have their fair say in the public discourse. That is what distances us from the Nazis. Segregation has faded considerably over the years and Thurmond reflected that.

In the rush to advance society's values, someone has to be first and someone has to be last. Thurmond was among that last, but he did represent the will of his people. And that means that he stood by what he fought for.

[kojikun]

Your only big problem is that politics was Strom Thurmonds calling, more than anything else. Thurmond is no better than Wellstone, and doesn't deserve any more consideration than anyone else.

Was his service in the military even voluntary? Or was he drafted?

[Knife]

Fucking give it up. Wellstone was not in the military; the actions I'm talking about involving Thurmond that give him the consideration I'm giving him were entirely due to his military service. Capiche? Besides that, I've already explained why--for two reasons--military service is a higher calling than political service.

Your only big problem is that politics was Strom Thurmonds calling, more than anything else. Thurmond is no better than Wellstone, and doesn't deserve any more consideration than anyone else.

I would agree with you if Thurmond only did a one or two year stint in the Army. However, he was a MGeneral when he left the service. To be a Major General denotes a little bit a dedication to the services and alot of time in them.

While he may have been famous for politics, he apearently devoted alot of time and effort (may he be blessed for this) to the military. And yes, military personel deserve more consideration than the rest of us. They put their ass on the line while we put our ass on a couch. It doesn't negate the rest of his life, but it should count as a positive when adding up the score of his life.

[Howedar]

It appears that Thurmond was reserve from before WW2 to 1960. I don't think he ever voluntarily went to active duty.

[Knife]

Your only big problem is that politics was Strom Thurmonds calling, more than anything else. Thurmond is no better than Wellstone, and doesn't deserve any more consideration than anyone else.

Was his service in the military even voluntary? Or was he drafted?

He was a two star general when he retired from military service, you jack ass. After the 38 or so years in, does it really matter if when he joined, it was drafted or enlisted. After his first tour of duty, that just doesn't matter any more. He obviously re-uped a couple more times after that.

[Durandal]

We agree--and that should be reasonably open for critique. But why should it dominate against what is arguably a far more resolute action? It takes great resolve to do what he did on the battlefield; you say that this is not mathematics? So, then, are the evil deeds ones that must triumph in our memory, or can the image of that resolve, in general, prevail? Or should the measure be balanced? And in a balanced measure, why would a sensible person resort to personal attacks on the dead, and on those where judgement can be thrown in either direction, depending on the deeds viewed?

Are you agreeing or disagreeing? His actions as a soldier don't make up for or cancel out the fact that he was a racist who did everything in his political power to oppress an entire race of people. He was a racist, period, and now he's dead. Good riddance. Now there's one less racist piece of shit with political influence in the world. Cry me a fucking river. Ever wonder how many war vets are KKK members who may or may not be running around burning crosses on blacks' lawns?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

[quote="Dark Hellion"]
On the topic, he deserved both respect and critism. No one should say you can't give him both. Don't elevate soldiers to saints DOZ, if you do you may find that soldiers are you neighbors who have sex at night and leave the bedroom window open. They are human beings who have made an valient choice. This is only one of a trillion choices they will make however. One choice cannot define someone so much that they are immune from critism.quote]

They are human beings, and that's the elegant part about it. A history of those who've gone from their jobs to fight and die for the country. The citizen-soldier; the epitome of the democratic values. We cannot respect the ideal or the concept to much, but we can respect one of them to much, yes, you're right.

Making them immune to criticism though? Never--I would just desire to see their death-beds free from insult.

[Howedar]

I frankly don't see the big deal that he's dead. Okay, say he was a great soldier and that makes him beyond reproach. Well then it is highly inapporpriate to criticize him when he's alive. Or, maybe he was an evil, evil man. Which means its just as okay to criticize him now as when he was alive.

People are criticized behind their backs every day. I criticize GWB, and I criticized Clinton. They have no chance to respond to these criticisms. They might as well be dead in this respect.

*cough*

[The Duchess of Zeon]

[quote="The Duchess of Zeon" We agree--and that should be reasonably open for critique. But why should it dominate against what is arguably a far more resolute action? It takes great resolve to do what he did on the battlefield; you say that this is not mathematics? So, then, are the evil deeds ones that must triumph in our memory, or can the image of that resolve, in general, prevail? Or should the measure be balanced? And in a balanced measure, why would a sensible person resort to personal attacks on the dead, and on those where judgement can be thrown in either direction, depending on the deeds viewed?

Are you agreeing or disagreeing? His actions as a soldier don't make up for or cancel out the fact that he was a racist who did everything in his political power to oppress an entire race of people. He was a racist, period, and now he's dead. Good riddance. Now there's one less racist piece of shit with political influence in the world.[/quote]

I think agreed with the concept, but disagreed with where it led. His actions as a politician can't possibly compare with what he did as a soldier. My reasoning there is along these lines: Soldiers risk their lives, and do so not merely for a political ideology, but for a whole society. The combination of these two factors makes their deeds of a vastly more important nature than any deed done by a mere politician.

[Iceberg]

He was a two star general when he retired from military service, you jack ass. After the 38 or so years in, does it really matter if when he joined, it was drafted or enlisted. After his first tour of duty, that just doesn't matter any more. He obviously re-uped a couple more times after that.

In the reserves, yes. Thurmond was only an active-duty soldier for a few years during World War II, and a 38-year career, even in the Reserves, is long enough to get a star or two through sheer longevity if nothing else (not to mention the fact that he sat on the Senate Armed Forces Committee for quite a number of years). I'm not willing to give him a free pass for his three decades of politics in the service of racial separatism before he was dragged kicking and screaming into the 1960s (twenty years too late), just because he was activated from the Reserves for a few years during World War II.

People remember Strom Thurmond for his 48 years in the Senate, not for his service in World War II.