Ahhh, feel that stench

[His Divine Shadow]

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... id=1258770

At times like these one does understand why people so vehemently dislike spacebattles, but have compassion, it can't be easy to be a vegetable.

[SirNitram]

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... id=1258770

At times like these one does understand why people so vehemently dislike spacebattles, but have compassion, it can't be easy to be a vegetable.

Now.. Do I resume my holy flamewar against the idea that TL's are somehow lightspeed despite the fact the observed recoil of the barrels, the tracking, and visual part of the beam all indicate otherwise, or do I let the hilarity ensue...

[Graeme Dice]

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... id=1258770

At times like these one does understand why people so vehemently dislike spacebattles, but have compassion, it can't be easy to be a vegetable.

It also can't be very easy to have convinced yourself that they are lightspeed weapons. Especially since all the visual evidence contradicts that.

[His Divine Shadow]

It also can't be very easy to have convinced yourself that they are lightspeed weapons. Especially since all the visual evidence contradicts that.

The ICS says it, Saxton knows what he's talking about.
And what evidence is that?

What about what we've already been through several times? The visuals that show TL bolts wink out of existence just like a laser would when it's turned off, or the visual evidence that shows that bolts actually change their path midflight?

[SirNitram]

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... id=1258770

At times like these one does understand why people so vehemently dislike spacebattles, but have compassion, it can't be easy to be a vegetable.

It also can't be very easy to have convinced yourself that they are lightspeed weapons. Especially since all the visual evidence contradicts that.

You'd be surprised. My 'Heretic of PSW' comes from the fact I've actually tried to batter through the skulls of those in that forum that TL's are both STL and can flak. I briefly got Primus to concede these points, realizing that parsimony obliterates the prevailing theory, but I've not a clue whether he changed his mind again...

[His Divine Shadow]

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... id=1258770

At times like these one does understand why people so vehemently dislike spacebattles, but have compassion, it can't be easy to be a vegetable.

It also can't be very easy to have convinced yourself that they are lightspeed weapons. Especially since all the visual evidence contradicts that.

You'd be surprised. My 'Heretic of PSW' comes from the fact I've actually tried to batter through the skulls of those in that forum that TL's are both STL and can flak. I briefly got Primus to concede these points, realizing that parsimony obliterates the prevailing theory, but I've not a clue whether he changed his mind again...

Oh really? When? Linkage please, because if it's the thread I remember...

Oh well, so here we have the self-guided STL green bolts of doom that release only a small fraction of their supposed energy.

[SirNitram]

It also can't be very easy to have convinced yourself that they are lightspeed weapons. Especially since all the visual evidence contradicts that.

The ICS says it, Saxton knows what he's talking about.
And what evidence is that?

What about what we've already been through several times? The visuals that show TL bolts wink out of existence just like a laser would when it's turned off, or the visual evidence that shows that bolts actually change their path midflight?

Wall Of Ignorance: ICSophile located.

Observed recoil fails to match lightspeed firing predictions.

Early damage fails to match lightspeed firing predictions(It occours before the visible bolt, but after the bolt has gotten close to the target.).

Visuals fail to match lightspeed prediction.

Vast majority of sub-canon resources fail to offer any agreement(Secondary, of course, since the ICS is slightly canon. Or something. Above the books, below the movies. However, one should carefully consider the fact not even in-universe explanations agree on the mechanism of a TL.).

Now, what's your evidence again? Oh yes, a single line in a book that's lesser than the movies. Pardon me whilst I laugh at you.

[SirNitram]

It also can't be very easy to have convinced yourself that they are lightspeed weapons. Especially since all the visual evidence contradicts that.

You'd be surprised. My 'Heretic of PSW' comes from the fact I've actually tried to batter through the skulls of those in that forum that TL's are both STL and can flak. I briefly got Primus to concede these points, realizing that parsimony obliterates the prevailing theory, but I've not a clue whether he changed his mind again...

Oh really? When? Linkage please, because if it's the thread I remember...

Oh well, so here we have the self-guided STL green bolts of doom that release only a small fraction of their supposed energy.

It's several threads, HDS, where you ignored canon to your own declaration of victory. I've listed the problems with your beloved theory. If you can actually rebutt them, do so.

And yes, TL's act in bizarre manners. I fail to give a shit: Your predictions don't match the observed qualities. So your theory is shit.

[Graeme Dice]

The ICS says it, Saxton knows what he's talking about.

I hope you can recognize your own appeals to authority. WEG says that SSD's are 8 km long. The source is irrelevant when contradicted by the films.

And what evidence is that?

Maybe the fact that the damage does _not_ occur quick enough for it to be a light speed weapon, and that the visible bolts cause the entirety of noticeable damage in all but two cases throughout the films. The damage always takes longer to occur than a single frame, so it is utterly impossible for them to be lightspeed weapons.

What about what we've already been through several times? The visuals that show TL bolts wink out of existence just like a laser would when it's turned off, or the visual evidence that shows that bolts actually change their path midflight?

I wasn't aware that ASVS had been through the evidence several times.

I would ask you to describe how you know when the weapons are turned off, other than of course looking for when the bolt dissappears. I would also ask you why changing path midflight is impossible for a plasma weapon.

[His Divine Shadow]

Observed recoil fails to match lightspeed firing predictions

And what if recoil is due to waste gasses being ejected? We see waste gas dropping from the barrel.

Early damage fails to match lightspeed firing predictions(It occours before the visible bolt, but after the bolt has gotten close to the target.)

I fail to see how that would do anything, it could certainly contradict some theories, but the one Mad proposed can work with it.

Visuals fail to match lightspeed prediction.

Well they do fail on certain theories on how a lightspeed turbolaser would work, but not all.

It's several threads, HDS, where you ignored canon to your own declaration of victory. I've listed the problems with your beloved theory. If you can actually rebutt them, do so

I did so in those threads too, however you left in the end.

And yes, TL's act in bizarre manners. I fail to give a shit: Your predictions don't match the observed qualities. So your theory is shit.

Actually my theory, or rather Mad's, do match the predictions.
I am not aware of any that would explicitly contradict them.
I wonder, have you taken up your problems with Saxton? He does usually respond.

[Graeme Dice]

Vast majority of sub-canon resources fail to offer any agreement(Secondary, of course, since the ICS is slightly canon. Or something. Above the books, below the movies. However, one should carefully consider the fact not even in-universe explanations agree on the mechanism of a TL.).

Now, what's your evidence again? Oh yes, a single line in a book that's lesser than the movies. Pardon me whilst I laugh at you.

Since when is the ICS above the novels and other books? It's not a novelization or a radio play, so it falls squarely into the everything else category.

[Graeme Dice]

I fail to see how that would do anything, it could certainly contradict some theories, but the one Mad proposed can work with it.

If the damage does not start to occur in the exact same frame as the weapon is fired, then the weapon is not lightspeed. The distances involved in combat in the movies are all less than 12,500 km, so the weapon will have reached the target by the end of a single frame.

Well they do fail on certain theories on how a lightspeed turbolaser would work, but not all.

They don't match lightspeed travel, so they aren't lightspeed. That's a fairly simple statement.

Actually my theory, or rather Mad's, do match the predictions.
I am not aware of any that would explicitly contradict them.
I wonder, have you taken up your problems with Saxton? He does usually respond.

I don't much care what Saxton has to say about it. He can't contradict the films.

[His Divine Shadow]

I hope you can recognize your own appeals to authority. WEG says that SSD's are 8 km long. The source is irrelevant when contradicted by the films

Beyond referencing the source, I was just relaying my personal opinion.

Maybe the fact that the damage does _not_ occur quick enough for it to be a light speed weapon, and that the visible bolts cause the entirety of noticeable damage in all but two cases throughout the films. The damage always takes longer to occur than a single frame, so it is utterly impossible for them to be lightspeed weapons.

Well that would imply what you say, but it's not explicit evidence really.
If the lightspeed beam didn't charge to full power at once we could get behaviour that we see onscreen, or if the weapon was lightspeed but had some kind of power-variance travelling down it's lenght.

I wasn't aware that ASVS had been through the evidence several times

I naturally reffered to this forum.

I would ask you to describe how you know when the weapons are turned off, other than of course looking for when the bolt dissappears. I would also ask you why changing path midflight is impossible for a plasma weapon.

Not if it was an actual hi-tech missile that contained high energy plasma inside it no.
Ofcourse that brings up problems with visuals of bolts being opaque.

[YT300000]

Vast majority of sub-canon resources fail to offer any agreement(Secondary, of course, since the ICS is slightly canon. Or something. Above the books, below the movies. However, one should carefully consider the fact not even in-universe explanations agree on the mechanism of a TL.).

Now, what's your evidence again? Oh yes, a single line in a book that's lesser than the movies. Pardon me whilst I laugh at you.

Since when is the ICS above the novels and other books? It's not a novelization or a radio play, so it falls squarely into the everything else category.

ICS takes visuals, which are ultimate canon, does a bunch of calcs, and tells us how powerful things are.

Also, Lucasfilm recently said that ICS is on almost the same level of canon as the movies. I don't have the quote.

[SirNitram]

Observed recoil fails to match lightspeed firing predictions

And what if recoil is due to waste gasses being ejected? We see waste gas dropping from the barrel.

Well, the Slave Ship quote indicates recoil is equal to gigatons of kinetic energy, so you'd have a devil of a time doing this...

Of course, since you wank so hard to ICS, explain why kT/MT/GT weapons aren't producing recoil from their own energy level?

Early damage fails to match lightspeed firing predictions(It occours before the visible bolt, but after the bolt has gotten close to the target.)

I fail to see how that would do anything, it could certainly contradict some theories, but the one Mad proposed can work with it.

Which self-congratulatory pile was that, exactly? You'll have to forgive me, I don't keep track of how you lot try to reassure each other your theory actually works.

Of course, I suspect Parsimony will obliterate it in the end. Especially if it's that 'Lightspeed portion is rotating around at lightspeed in a slower than light section!' pile of crap.

Visuals fail to match lightspeed prediction.

Well they do fail on certain theories on how a lightspeed turbolaser would work, but not all.

Then I suggest you start defining these theories. Quickly.

It's several threads, HDS, where you ignored canon to your own declaration of victory. I've listed the problems with your beloved theory. If you can actually rebutt them, do so

I did so in those threads too, however you left in the end.

I eventually left threads with Darkstar in them, so? Does that make him right? No - I was sick of the mob chanting I was wrong without being able to actually provide proof for their pet theories.

And yes, TL's act in bizarre manners. I fail to give a shit: Your predictions don't match the observed qualities. So your theory is shit.

Actually my theory, or rather Mad's, do match the predictions.
I am not aware of any that would explicitly contradict them.
I wonder, have you taken up your problems with Saxton? He does usually respond.

1) Show your theory, then. Don't be like Darkstar and say you've already covered it.

2) Then you must be fucking blind.

3) I'm sorry; I don't care enough about it to waste the time of a Phd on it. I don't even care enough about it to go into PSW.

[YT300000]

Here it is:

The first two Incredible Cross-Sections books were conceived to explore bold new territory in the Star Wars universe, taking a rare look inside more vehicles and vessels than we had ever seen before, and doing in in unprecidented detail. These books would represent the most thorough research ever done on these vehicles and would receive Lucasfilm's formal imprimatur as canon. These volumes would henceforth be sent out to licensees as reference guides and would become useful manuals for Industrial Light & Magic, where some of the artwork influenced details in Episodes I and II." - P. 36 SW Insider.

[His Divine Shadow]

If the damage does not start to occur in the exact same frame as the weapon is fired, then the weapon is not lightspeed.

That would be true if we assume that the beam jumps to fullpower at once, but I don't think we can make that assumption right off the bat.

They don't match lightspeed travel, so they aren't lightspeed. That's a fairly simple statement

That it would be, but they have so many bizzare behaviours already, the easiest way to reconcile them was to say they where ripples along a beam, which would explain alot of weird behavior.

I don't much care what Saxton has to say about it. He can't contradict the films.

I wasn't aware Saxton had tried to contradict the films.

[Graeme Dice]

ICS takes visuals, which are ultimate canon, does a bunch of calcs, and tells us how powerful things are.

Which puts it at the same level as the typical thread on ASVS, except that it's published so it moved to the level of official.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The recoil argument is contradicted by the SHPA-Ts which fire visible bolts, and the sleeve does recoil, but returns to position while the beam is still firing.

Thusly, the recoil in the TL sleeves (as observed in ANH) do not prove that there is not a post-visible bolt invisible portion.

Flakbursting is something I never conceeded on, because its fucking stupid.

Flakbursting bolts would not have bolts that continue through the "burst" which is only worth a kg of TNT or so, unless one assumes the bolt automatically sends most of its energy in neutrinos or something, and this doesn't account for how they "know" to burst, or why they would since its wholely useless anyway. Flakbursting loses to parsimony.

[YT300000]

ICS takes visuals, which are ultimate canon, does a bunch of calcs, and tells us how powerful things are.

Which puts it at the same level as the typical thread on ASVS, except that it's published so it moved to the level of official.

From my above post:

would receive Lucasfilm's formal imprimatur as canon

[Illuminatus Primus]

Of course, since you wank so hard to ICS, explain why kT/MT/GT weapons aren't producing recoil from their own energy level?

You're assuming that the recoil energies of the beam are passed into the recoiling barrel sleeve, as opposed to waste gasses.

If the theory can work, there's no reason to discard it.

Blasters are still a problem though.

[Graeme Dice]

Beyond referencing the source, I was just relaying my personal opinion.

And you expected me to accept it because you threw Saxton's name in there.

Well that would imply what you say, but it's not explicit evidence really.
If the lightspeed beam didn't charge to full power at once we could get behaviour that we see onscreen, or if the weapon was lightspeed but had some kind of power-variance travelling down it's lenght.

Yes, it is perfectly explicit evidence that the weapon is not lightspeed. NO damage occurs until the visual, STL portion of the beam is near the target. Thus, even if the weapon is lightspeed, in contrary to all the visual evidence, this makes no difference to the outcome of your targetting. Further, all of those FTL theories are more complicated than the STL plasma theory, which fits more of the written evidence, and much, much more of the visual evidence.

I wasn't aware that ASVS had been through the evidence several times

I naturally reffered to this forum.

Then you will kindly present the thread describing the evidence.

I would ask you to describe how you know when the weapons are turned off, other than of course looking for when the bolt dissappears. I would also ask you why changing path midflight is impossible for a plasma weapon.

Not if it was an actual hi-tech missile that contained high energy plasma inside it no.
Ofcourse that brings up problems with visuals of bolts being opaque.

Concession accepted on the weapon shut-off issue. As for the other, opaque means that you can't see through it. I fail to see how an object being a missile precludes it also being opaque. I guess you can see through sidewinders?

[NecronLord]

Of course, the ICS being a technical canon source, should quite possibly over-rule the movies in this regard, as there are limits to what can be done on film, such as accurately depicting a lightspeed weapon.

There are numerous examples of bloopers and technical limitations in the movies, the stormtrooper armour fracturing when they fall over in RotJ, which is due to the limitations of the plastic. Similarly, the turbolasers are limited by what can be done on screen, the ICS has no such problem.

there is a point where micro ananlysis of the films goes overboard, and you begin to need to explain why there is an X-wing flying on Coruscant in AotC. They are represenations, not actual footage.

[His Divine Shadow]

Of course, since you wank so hard to ICS, explain why kT/MT/GT weapons aren't producing recoil from their own energy level?

I don't wank to the ICS, now if you'd please, let's try and keep some civility this time around, I'd prefer it.
I am not really sure, my idea is likely wrong anyway, you know the SPHA-T, they fire beam weapons, yet there is an initial recoil but it returns to it's position while firing, as you said, TL behaviour is bizzare.

Which self-congratulatory pile was that, exactly? You'll have to forgive me, I don't keep track of how you lot try to reassure each other your theory actually works.

Time delay theory, the beam doesn't start out at full power, but reaches fullpower after a few frames.
And you don't have to insult Mad, I don't even think you've seen his theories.

Then I suggest you start defining these theories. Quickly.

I have nothing to do with the theories that failed, the current theory is a simple time-delay theory.

I eventually left threads with Darkstar in them, so? Does that make him right? No - I was sick of the mob chanting I was wrong without being able to actually provide proof for their pet theories.

And as I recalled, we did provide the proof.
But this is irrelevant to the now and here.

1) Show your theory, then. Don't be like Darkstar and say you've already covered it.

Well it's not really mine, but the gist of it was a time-delay theory of a few frames or so, a charge-up time or a warmup time.

3) I'm sorry; I don't care enough about it to waste the time of a Phd on it. I don't even care enough about it to go into PSW.

Then why are you so vehement about it here? I don't see why you feel you need to end every sentence with an insult, I never wanted this.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I will locate the thread where Mad detailed his delayed-pulse theory.

Hold momentarily.