Ahhh, feel that stench

[Graeme Dice]

Well if we treat this as a documentary of what happened in SW, then what is to say that Lucas just made the pulses visible and slower because it looked better?

That would be a FX demon. Really HDS, I'd expect you to know the R&R by now.

[Lord Poe]

Odd place for a seam. Odd seam that curves.

Are you blind? You can see the damned thing bisecting the entire shoulder piece!

It's an FX fault, plain and simple. Why the fuck would they have a seam on a shoulder pad?

Why would they have design TIE fighters that hammper a pilot's view? Its there, deal with it. As are the calf seams.

[Graeme Dice]

Not with you bubba. Unless you could prehaps enlighten me on why the empire changed it's rank system in RotJ so that all senior officers had the same insignia? Because, obviously that's what they do, becuase Lucasfilm are ommnipotent, and that's a perfect representation of a fictional universe.

And of course, when lightsabers dissapear, they leave a plastic rod behind which characters pass to a mysterious hand and exchange for an unlit saber (ESB)

I see, so you'd rather make up your own fantasy version of what happens in both ST and SW than use what's actually there.

That's good for you, but totally useless in determing the outcome of a conflict.

[Graeme Dice]

Odd place for a seam. Odd seam that curves. It's an FX fault, plain and simple. Why the fuck would they have a seam on a shoulder pad?

Considering that it's bloody obvious that it's a seam from simply looking at it, then yes, I'd say it's a seam. It's also not a stupid place for a seam if you want to be able to lift your arms over your head to climb a ladder.

[His Divine Shadow]

I'm sorry HDS, but you're assumption is the one that doesn't fit, not mine. Mine is simpler behaviour than yours, so with identical evidence mine wins.

Sorry, my assumption is the time-delay theory, that one fits.

Of course it is. You are just displaying your ignorance of the material by saying that. It appears in both Cracken's Rebel Field Guide and the EGWT

I have the EGWT, it says nothing about plasma, I don't have CRFG though, I have quotes from the Visual Dictionaries though, they speak of plasma for blasters.
And the majority of material I've seen on weapons is in the NJO, in which the plasma weapons of the vong is contrasted with the "lasers" of the NR.

Which is of course, more complicated than the plasma bolt theory that provides identical behaviour.

A plasma bolt would arc in gravity, a plasma bolt wouldn't do damage before the bolt arrives either, a plasma bolt wouldn't be green or translucent.

Thank you for admitting that the actual weapon is not lightspeed for all intents and purposes. I expect you to make an apology to the people whose intelligence you called insulted earlier in this thread.

I did not admit that, I said it could be another possibility, ofcourse I asked saxton as much over mail and he denied that so I work with what I got to make all the evidence fit.
I have not insulted anyone in this thread, I linked to another thread, but at no time did I insult anyone in particular.

Because I remember your days on ASVS when all you did was regurgigate threads and theories someone else posted on SB

Is this a grudge thing? I always thought we where on good standing with each other? Friends even.
I don't really recall doing much more than linking to certain debates because I thought we could have them at ASVS too.

Then please explain how this supports your theory and not mine

It would address the recoil issue brought up by Sirtnitram.

Since blasters are nothing more than smaller turbolasers, I thank you for your concession. As for these so called "bizarre" behavious, please outline why a plasma bolt cannot exhibit all of them.

Translucency - plasma is high energy opaque matter, it's not translucent

Green - at no temperature is plasma ever green

Gravity ignoring - plasma do not defy gravity, blasters in the movies do this, with the speeds we observe we should see definite and clear arcing, infact this is a very severe contradiction when one looks at the movies.

Winking out effect - if it was plasma, there is no physically workable explanation for such an effect, if it'd lost contaniment we ought to atleast see a great wite spherical explosion with the strenght of a star(given the energies that would have to be contained by the plasma)
Changing of paths - Well a blob of plasma, even if it'd have some exotic green

I asked you to present the evidence, and you are still waffling on the issue

Here, I really thought you already knew about it, it's been up on SD and ASVS IIRC several times.
========================
"Ten seconds," Han told Leia and Dorja, and reached for the triggers to the concussion-missile tubers.

Anticipation drew a metallic streak down his tongue. He felt a prickle of sweat on his scalp.

"Five." he triggered the first pair of concussion missiles, knowing that unlike the laser cannon, they did not strike at the speed of light."

"Two." Han triggered another pair of missiles. The Millenium Falcon's engines howled as they fought the pull of the dovin basal's gravity.

"Fire." the dovin basal swept past, and suddenly the display lit up with the six approaching coralskippers. The combined power of the eight turbolasers ifired straight at them.

The six coralskippers had also split into two Vs of three craft each, the formations on slightly diverging courses, but both formations were running into the Falcon and her armament at a combined velocity of over ninety percent of the speed of light. None of them had shifted their dovin basals to warp space defensively ahead of them, and the pilots had only an instant to perceive the doom staring them in the face, and no time to react. The first vic ran right into the first pair of missiles and the turbolaser fire, and all three erupted in fire as their coral hulls shattered into fragments.
========================
-Destiny's Way

[NecronLord]

I see, so you'd rather make up your own fantasy version of what happens in both ST and SW than use what's actually there.

That's good for you, but totally useless in determing the outcome of a conflict.

So, Anakins skywalker in TESB works by unseen hand, and Obi Wan's has a wire leading into his robes, and Vader's changes colour?

Goodnight.

[His Divine Shadow]

Exactly. Your entire argument is built around circumstantial evidence in a desperate attempt to ignore the fact that the bolts have _never_ been observed to travel at c.

AH, here is the center of the argument, and I do this because the ICS says so, I try and incorporate all the evidence, lightspeed turbolaser, plasma based blasters(haven't had any luck with getting that one to work though), without the ICS, and the Destiny's Way quotes I wouldn't have begun with this.

[Graeme Dice]

Sorry, my assumption is the time-delay theory, that one fits.

No, it does not fit. You are stating: The weapon is lightspeed. A time-delay exists because the weapon's damage doesn't occur at lightspeed.

Mine is the simpler: The weapon is not lightspeed. The damage occurs when the bolt nears the target.

Note that both have the same result in that the damage occurs STL.

I have the EGWT, it says nothing about plasma, I don't have CRFG though, I have quotes from the Visual Dictionaries though, they speak of plasma for blasters.
And the majority of material I've seen on weapons is in the NJO, in which the plasma weapons of the vong is contrasted with the "lasers" of the NR.

Well, turbolasers certainly aren't lightspeed weapons, or they would be called beam weapons, like those of the ancient bounty hunter with a cannon mounted for his torso.

I did not admit that, I said it could be another possibility, ofcourse I asked saxton as much over mail and he denied that so I work with what I got to make all the evidence fit.
I have not insulted anyone in this thread, I linked to another thread, but at no time did I insult anyone in particular.

You insulted the people in the thread you linked to.

Is this a grudge thing? I always thought we where on good standing with each other? Friends even.
I don't really recall doing much more than linking to certain debates because I thought we could have them at ASVS too.

<reordered to make reply more efficient>

Gravity ignoring - plasma do not defy gravity, blasters in the movies do this, with the speeds we observe we should see definite and clear arcing, infact this is a very severe contradiction when one looks at the movies.

This could be dealt with by the magnetic bottle described in CRFG.

Translucency - plasma is high energy opaque matter, it's not translucent

Green - at no temperature is plasma ever green

Winking out effect - if it was plasma, there is no physically workable explanation for such an effect, if it'd lost contaniment we ought to atleast see a great wite spherical explosion with the strenght of a star(given the energies that would have to be contained by the plasma)
Changing of paths - Well a blob of plasma, even if it'd have some exotic green

There is also no physically workable explanation for such an effect for a lightspeed weapon either. If you are going to use the sci-fi card for that, then it also works for the plasma bolt.

Here, I really thought you already knew about it, it's been up on SD and ASVS IIRC several times.

SD maybe, ASVS never.

<snip>

It's a nice quote, but it clearly contradicts the films, where turbolasers do _not_ strike instantaneously. It also contradicts your theory about beam-delay, because a delay does not allow for instantaneous damage.

[His Divine Shadow]

Oh and Graeme, here's the bolt changing path stuff:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=22318

[Graeme Dice]

So, Anakins skywalker in TESB works by unseen hand, and Obi Wan's has a wire leading into his robes, and Vader's changes colour?

Goodnight.

I asked you to inform me of where the use of the film as evidence stops and the use of your own fantasy starts. Since you will not tell me I gratefully accept your concession.

[Graeme Dice]

AH, here is the center of the argument, and I do this because the ICS says so, I try and incorporate all the evidence, lightspeed turbolaser, plasma based blasters(haven't had any luck with getting that one to work though), without the ICS, and the Destiny's Way quotes I wouldn't have begun with this.

And in doing so you elevate the ICS above the movies in importance.

[Graeme Dice]

Oh and Graeme, here's the bolt changing path stuff:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=22318

That would be the effect of the magnetic bottle/cylinder the CRFG discusses.

[His Divine Shadow]

No, it does not fit. You are stating: The weapon is lightspeed. A time-delay exists because the weapon's damage doesn't occur at lightspeed

No, you've gotten my theory wrong, the reason the time-delay exists is not because it doesn't occur at lightspeed, but because the power of the beam increases after a time period, you know as if someone shone a laser on a target and then after having acquired the target, pressed a button or a turned a dial that controlled the power and then, the power went up, and hitting the target with a destructive amount of energy

Well, turbolasers certainly aren't lightspeed weapons, or they would be called beam weapons, like those of the ancient bounty hunter with a cannon mounted for his torso

What are they called then?

You insulted the people in the thread you linked to

Yeah so? We both insult each back and forth it's nothing new, it has noting to do with you and me.

<reordered to make reply more efficient>

Hm?

This could be dealt with by the magnetic bottle described in CRFG.

Any quotes?

There is also no physically workable explanation for such an effect for a lightspeed weapon either. If you are going to use the sci-fi card for that, then it also works for the plasma bolt

Actually, I am stating it's unknown, exotic, instead of a process we already know of, the same reason that hypermatter was invented instead of saying the deathstar used fossil fuels.

It's a nice quote, but it clearly contradicts the films, where turbolasers do _not_ strike instantaneously. It also contradicts your theory about beam-delay, because a delay does not allow for instantaneous damage.

Actually, according to my theory, well it's not really mine, they do strike at the speed of light, the power just goes up after the time delay.

[His Divine Shadow]

AH, here is the center of the argument, and I do this because the ICS says so, I try and incorporate all the evidence, lightspeed turbolaser, plasma based blasters(haven't had any luck with getting that one to work though), without the ICS, and the Destiny's Way quotes I wouldn't have begun with this.

And in doing so you elevate the ICS above the movies in importance.

Personally I see alot of strange and funky stuff in the movies, nothing that plasma can explain satisfactory, the LS theory leaves stuff to be desired at places too, but less so.

The most fitting explanation would be that a turbolaser bolt is a gravity-defying missile and glows for some reason(like a drive field) and has some measure of being able to change heading.
It doesn't put any upper limit on the speed of the weapon either.

Which is another possibility I once toyed with, the weapon fires a power-variance along the beam, as the variance travels along the beam it creates an instability, the result is the visible bolt we see, this variance travels on a speed that is dependant on the lenght of the entire beam it travels along.
This explains why velocities are variable and why sometimes damage occurs before impact, why sometimes a bolt can pass through a ship without doing any damage, and why the ICS and DW books would say they are light speed, because thats the maximum velocity of the bolts.

[His Divine Shadow]

Oh and Graeme, here's the bolt changing path stuff:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=22318

That would be the effect of the magnetic bottle/cylinder the CRFG discusses.

Do you have a quote for that?

[His Divine Shadow]

The most fitting explanation would be that a turbolaser bolt is a gravity-defying missile and glows for some reason(like a drive field) and has some measure of being able to change heading.
It doesn't put any upper limit on the speed of the weapon either

Addendum, this is most fitting with the visuals.

[SirNitram]

The most fitting explanation would be that a turbolaser bolt is a gravity-defying missile and glows for some reason(like a drive field) and has some measure of being able to change heading.
It doesn't put any upper limit on the speed of the weapon either

Addendum, this is most fitting with the visuals.

Correct. Indeed, we only have a truly terrifying lower limit for max speed: The Death Star Superlaser's incredible propagation speed towards Alderaan.

We also know that by the NJO era, TL's reach speeds which, to the naked eye, appear to be instant propagation(Then again, this era has fighters that hit high portions of c for combat maneuvers).

However, none of this requires lightspeed propagation. Just alot of things we don't understand. I'm glad this finally got through.

[His Divine Shadow]

Correct. Indeed, we only have a truly terrifying lower limit for max speed: The Death Star Superlaser's incredible propagation speed towards Alderaan.

We also know that by the NJO era, TL's reach speeds which, to the naked eye, appear to be instant propagation(Then again, this era has fighters that hit high portions of c for combat maneuvers).

However, none of this requires lightspeed propagation. Just alot of things we don't understand. I'm glad this finally got through.

My reasons for arguing a lightspeed TL(in whatever form that may be) is to try and fit all the evidence in.

The third theory of mine, which I mentioned, practically requires magic, but it also fits with the movies and lightspeed propagation rate, it stipulates that there is indeed a lightspeed beam but the damaging part travels at less than lightspeed, but can also at sufficiently long ranges, travel at lightspeed itself, which would make the ICS comment make sense, since all the figures in Saxton's book are max figures, it would also make sense for the DW quote because in that instance they where engaging at ranges of lightseconds, it's likely that the socalled power variance would reach lightspeed itself at such extreme ranges.

This one would keep TL's as an energy weapon and would be consistent with visuals in the movies and all the FX flubs, the problem is that it's utterly non-scientific.

[SirNitram]

Correct. Indeed, we only have a truly terrifying lower limit for max speed: The Death Star Superlaser's incredible propagation speed towards Alderaan.

We also know that by the NJO era, TL's reach speeds which, to the naked eye, appear to be instant propagation(Then again, this era has fighters that hit high portions of c for combat maneuvers).

However, none of this requires lightspeed propagation. Just alot of things we don't understand. I'm glad this finally got through.

My reasons for arguing a lightspeed TL(in whatever form that may be) is to try and fit all the evidence in.

But it doesn't. It ignores every description of the mechanism except for the Lightspeed description. The fact several of these are in pure in-universe, and the rest in tech manuals, has given risen to my theory: Almost no one in SW actually understands TL's.

The third theory of mine, which I mentioned, practically requires magic, but it also fits with the movies and lightspeed propagation rate, it stipulates that there is indeed a lightspeed beam but the damaging part travels at less than lightspeed, but can also at sufficiently long ranges, travel at lightspeed itself, which would make the ICS comment make sense, since all the figures in Saxton's book are max figures, it would also make sense for the DW quote because in that instance they where engaging at ranges of lightseconds, it's likely that the socalled power variance would reach lightspeed itself at such extreme ranges.

In other words, you combine the old theory of a connection between firepower of the shot and propagation speed(Supported by the high speed of the SL and the ground base Ion Cannon in the movies), and the idea of a targetting laser? No problem /there/. Mechanism we don't understand yes, but problems, no.

This one would keep TL's as an energy weapon and would be consistent with visuals in the movies and all the FX flubs, the problem is that it's utterly non-scientific.

[His Divine Shadow]

But it doesn't. It ignores every description of the mechanism except for the Lightspeed description. The fact several of these are in pure in-universe, and the rest in tech manuals, has given risen to my theory: Almost no one in SW actually understands TL's

I have been toying with the idea that a turbolaser, or blaster might be a colloquial word for many kinds of weapon types, we might have our old magic plasma weapons to funky lightspeed weapons and other energy weapons and whatnot all mentioned with one name, thats simply slang for an energy weapon, blasters for small arms and small shipmounted weapons, laser-cannons for medium weapons and TL's for large weapons, that and they all seem to utilize tibanna gas in one way or the other, geonosian fighters and the Aetherspite fighter use it as coolant for their weapons, some weapons might use it for plasma that they transmute into some magic energy bolt, some might energize it and use it in a similar way that one would use a bomb-pumped x-ray laser.

In other words, you combine the old theory of a connection between firepower of the shot and propagation speed(Supported by the high speed of the SL and the ground base Ion Cannon in the movies), and the idea of a targetting laser? No problem /there/. Mechanism we don't understand yes, but problems, no.

Actually I was implying a connection between range and propagation speed, but the firepower of the shot works just as well though, and if the upper limit of the thing is actually C, then we can work in all the strange

[SirNitram]

But it doesn't. It ignores every description of the mechanism except for the Lightspeed description. The fact several of these are in pure in-universe, and the rest in tech manuals, has given risen to my theory: Almost no one in SW actually understands TL's

I have been toying with the idea that a turbolaser, or blaster might be a colloquial word for many kinds of weapon types, we might have our old magic plasma weapons to funky lightspeed weapons and other energy weapons and whatnot all mentioned with one name, thats simply slang for an energy weapon, blasters for small arms and small shipmounted weapons, laser-cannons for medium weapons and TL's for large weapons, that and they all seem to utilize tibanna gas in one way or the other, geonosian fighters and the Aetherspite fighter use it as coolant for their weapons, some weapons might use it for plasma that they transmute into some magic energy bolt, some might energize it and use it in a similar way that one would use a bomb-pumped x-ray laser.

This idea may be worth some merit. It does seem odd that weapons have become so identical in a Galaxy so big.

In other words, you combine the old theory of a connection between firepower of the shot and propagation speed(Supported by the high speed of the SL and the ground base Ion Cannon in the movies), and the idea of a targetting laser? No problem /there/. Mechanism we don't understand yes, but problems, no.

Actually I was implying a connection between range and propagation speed, but the firepower of the shot works just as well though, and if the upper limit of the thing is actually C, then we can work in all the strange

Well, not truly C, but a .9(repeating)c so close it makes no odd to an observer without fucking awesome gear.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well, not truly C, but a .9(repeating)c so close it makes no odd to an observer without fucking awesome gear.

True, although there would have to be a guiding beam, a sort of rail if you will, that would propagate at lightspeed according to that theory.

[SirNitram]

Well, not truly C, but a .9(repeating)c so close it makes no odd to an observer without fucking awesome gear.

True, although there would have to be a guiding beam, a sort of rail if you will, that would propagate at lightspeed according to that theory.

A targetting laser to guide it, especially through it's course corrections. Of course, to imagine it's similar to modern laser pointers is silly, but the same basic principle.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well, not truly C, but a .9(repeating)c so close it makes no odd to an observer without fucking awesome gear.

True, although there would have to be a guiding beam, a sort of rail if you will, that would propagate at lightspeed according to that theory.

A targetting laser to guide it, especially through it's course corrections. Of course, to imagine it's similar to modern laser pointers is silly, but the same basic principle.

I was imagening the guiding beam and the destructive portion to be one and the same, some really funky energy waveform, one part is the lightspeed beam, the other is the power-variance travelling along it, altering the path of the guiding beam would cause the bolt to also move along with the beam, terminating the guidance beam probably causes the bolt to disintegrate, causing the winking out effect we see sometimes in the movies.

[Dark Hellion]

Ummm.. people like to ignore me bringing this up but most of the properties of turbolasers are explained by a theory called soliton wave theory were two overlapping waves of em are put out so that at a certain distance the hit in a spectacular explosion of interference. I don't understand it that well myself seeing as to I lost the link to the page but if anyone can find it the thing sounds remarkably like a turbolaser "bolt".