Star Wars Lightsaber battles and real life fencer ego

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

How's this explanation for the unnecessary wide swings, flashy parries, and stupid twirls? If Jedi use TK to obstruct each other, these phenomenon may not be deliberate, pre-meditaded actions at all, but rather reactions to have someone TK your arm clear of its intended path. The only reason they can still fight is because they know beforehand they're going to be TKed and know how to salvage an intended efficient maneuver and turn it into a wide, sweeping one. Thus, a Jedi in a Ysalimiri field would most likely fight like a competent swordsman.

EDIT: And so, to explain the twirls, like Obi-Wan's ridiculous twirl in TPM, perhaps he only did so because Darth Maul tried to TK the saber out of Obi-Wan's hand.

[CDiehl]

Thirdfain's argument is built on two big assumptions:

1. Jedi never learn to use any weapon but a lightsabre.
2. Jedi are incapable of fighting without the Force.

Neither of these assumptions are reasonable. Jedi spend a lot of years training, and it makes no sense to assume that not a day of it ever covers what to do if you don't have your lightsabre on you, or if you are blocked from using the Force. Both of these are perfectly reasonable contingencies to consider when training a Jedi, and it's unbelievable that no Jedi in 1,000 generations ever faced either situation, or both.

Sure, if we grant both those assumptions, and stuck a weapon with which a Jedi somehow bereft of the Force is unfamiliar into his hand, and put him in a room with an expert on that weapon determined to kill him, he's dead meat. What does that prove? If I spent 20 years becoming the world's leading expert on fighting with a baseball bat, then blindfolded a world fencing champion and handed him a bat, I'd beat him like a drum. It does not make me a better fighter than him.

[MrAnderson]

If I spent 20 years becoming the world's leading expert on fighting with a baseball bat, then blindfolded a world fencing champion and handed him a bat, I'd beat him like a drum. It does not make me a better fighter than him.

No, but it might give you a chance to stroke your ego by saying you are a better fighter than him.

[Thirdfain]

I just got 4 teeth pulled, so I am in no position to debate clearly.

I will get back to you within the week.

[Solauren]

Lol.

Okay, I have an idea

Let's stick a fencer in the room with someone with the abilities of a Jedi, and give the Jedi a Katana sword, and watch the fencer get ripped to ribbons.

Okay, now enough of that... however seriously.

Yes, I real world conditions, (i.e no Force) Jedi/Sith fighing is ludicrious. (Explace Lightsabers with long swords if you need too) It leaves alot of openings for a fast opponent.

HOWEVER

Factor in the known force abilities. Enchanced Speed, Enchanced Strength, Enchanced Reflex's, Precognition, Telepathy, Telekinesis, etc.

A Force user doesn't really have any holes in his defenses. He's too damn fast and can see the attacks coming

For example, could a real life fencer stop bullets? And I don't mean one or two, I mean the equal of 2 semi automatic weapons firing. You know, like Obi-Wan and Qui-Jon did vs 2 Destroyer Droids

No. Why? They are two damn slow
Hell, I don't think they could stop arrows or crossbow bolts

Fencing is about precision. Jedi dueling is about speed and hitting. I mean, the entire blade of a lightsaber is an edge.

Anyway... the best way to deflate the fencer would be have him duel you , and you are allowed Force abilities. (You'll see)

The rules
1- Dueler has to move at normal speeds. (Jedi Speed and Reflexs)
2- The Dueler has to tell you where he is striking for (Jedi Precog)
3- The dueler has to give you a few seconds (2 - 3) to make your defenses and attacks before they can respond (Jedi Speed and Reflexs)
4- You get a baseball bat or long lead pipe

Now go beat the fuck out of him

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Lol.

Okay, I have an idea

Let's stick a fencer in the room with someone with the abilities of a Jedi, and give the Jedi a Katana sword, and watch the fencer get ripped to ribbons.

Okay, now enough of that... however seriously.

Yes, I real world conditions, (i.e no Force) Jedi/Sith fighing is ludicrious. (Explace Lightsabers with long swords if you need too) It leaves alot of openings for a fast opponent.

HOWEVER

Factor in the known force abilities. Enchanced Speed, Enchanced Strength, Enchanced Reflex's, Precognition, Telepathy, Telekinesis, etc.

A Force user doesn't really have any holes in his defenses. He's too damn fast and can see the attacks coming

For example, could a real life fencer stop bullets? And I don't mean one or two, I mean the equal of 2 semi automatic weapons firing. You know, like Obi-Wan and Qui-Jon did vs 2 Destroyer Droids

No. Why? They are two damn slow
Hell, I don't think they could stop arrows or crossbow bolts

Fencing is about precision. Jedi dueling is about speed and hitting. I mean, the entire blade of a lightsaber is an edge.

Anyway... the best way to deflate the fencer would be have him duel you , and you are allowed Force abilities. (You'll see)

The rules
1- Dueler has to move at normal speeds. (Jedi Speed and Reflexs)
2- The Dueler has to tell you where he is striking for (Jedi Precog)
3- The dueler has to give you a few seconds (2 - 3) to make your defenses and attacks before they can respond (Jedi Speed and Reflexs)
4- You get a baseball bat or long lead pipe

Now go beat the fuck out of him

The speed and hitting explanation doesn't work. The maneuvers they use take longer and hit with less force than standard swordfighting techniques. Unless there's a disproof I haven't thought of, I have yet to see a theory that fits the facts better and introduces less extra terms than mine.

[Solauren]

Did you ever think they slowed the move down for us, or that is supposed to be it.

I mean, most Kung Fu movies, they have to slow the fighting down for us to follow

[Yogi]

If the Jedi were having their movements physically restricted then why do we see them wasting energy spinning, twirling, and doing all kinds of flashy stuff? Its not that they don't move enough, but that they move TOO MUCH.

[Lord of the Farce]

If the Jedi were having their movements physically restricted then why do we see them wasting energy spinning, twirling, and doing all kinds of flashy stuff? Its not that they don't move enough, but that they move TOO MUCH.

*Points up to Art's post at the top of the page*

Perhaps an appropriate analogy is trying to fight normally while under water, where the energy wasting "spinning, twirling, and doing all kinds of flashy stuff" is necessary to overcome the restrictions... Of course, that's just a possible explaination, which might be right or might be totally wrong... And now I'll go and play Ghost Recon...

[Yogi]

They still do a lot of spinning and twirling against battle droids. No force users there.

Besides, Vader and Luke never fought like that, and we KNOW Vader has demonstrated more Telekenesis than Maul ever did.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

They still do a lot of spinning and twirling against battle droids. No force users there.

That's true. I hadn't thought of that. Well so much for that theory

Besides, Vader and Luke never fought like that, and we KNOW Vader has demonstrated more Telekenesis than Maul ever did.

I did think of that. Vader and Luke are so strong with telekinesis that they can actually hold each other more or less in place, while Maul could only try to knock them off balance or knock the sabers out of their hands. But, as you said, they fought the same way against the battle droids, so there goes that explanation.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Twirling and spinning might deal with incoming weapons fire or potential incoming weapons fire (from handheld weapons to artillery, both of which we saw used on GEonosis for example.) against non-Force users. Most secondary canon has established that "current" Jedi styles were optimized against blaster wielding foes than older styles. If you have alot of targets surrounding you (thousands or tens of thousands of battle droids against a couple hundred Jedi for example.) You might be expected to defend against multiple attacks at once (or potentially defend - droids might abandon attacks if their opponent is already defending.)

[Connor MacLeod]

It also depends on how you decide to "block/interfere" with your opponent, and how much concentration is involved (you can block your opponent by creating a "Wall" effect along certain vectors which is less involved than physically *grabbing* them.)

You also have to consider that your opponent(s) are attempting to do the same thing to you (which means you have to defend against the same abilities they do to you. For example, look at Yoda being diverted by Dooku dropping a heavy object on Anakin/Obi-Wan.) and concentration is imperfect (Jedi can be distracted, or "slip" in their control. Again, see the AOTC example.)

There is STILL the precognition issue as well (jumps and spins could be as much to avoid attacks that MIGHT have been incoming but were later abandoned as much as avoiding attempts to grab or immobilize or distract an opponent.)

The basic point however remains the same. One cannot take the combat styles of a Jedi when the Force is involved, and neccesarily assume they would fight the SAME way without it.

[FOG3]

I saw a book at Borders from AotC. Visual guide or dictionary I think it was. It said Kenobi used Style 3, which evolved from countering blasters. Dooku used Style 2 which is supposed to be anchient and elegant. Anakin used Style 4 known for its power. Being from a official source I thought it might have some bearing on this debate.

[YT300000]

I saw a book at Borders from AotC. Visual guide or dictionary I think it was. It said Kenobi used Style 3, which evolved from countering blasters. Dooku used Style 2 which is supposed to be anchient and elegant. Anakin used Style 4 known for its power. Being from a official source I thought it might have some bearing on this debate.

Anakin uses form 5. Some Jedi realized that form 3 was too passive. A form 3 master is impossible to defeat, but he might not be able to defeat an enemy himself. Form 3 is form 5 with an empasis on defenses becoming attacks.

Form 2 is the most similar to real-life fencing of any of the forms.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

The Dutch ,Portuguese, and spanish merchant that first reach the japanese market had the same outlook when looking at the japanese Samurai

Spanish and the Dutch merchant had many followers of the leading fencing and dueling school and after spotting several clashes between Samurai, came to to the conclusion that they would stand a chance against a master fencers.

The several time when The two styles of combat met, the result was that the fencers lost their sword arms and after that Merchant crews took to wearing flintlock pistol and ship captain forbided the wearing of swords to insure no further attempts to prove the superioty of Fencer over the Samurai.

Looking at this, I doubt that a fencer would stand any better chance against a Jedi ( even if arm with a light sabre). While a Kendo master may, do a little better, but with the Jedi supernatural skills would be hard press.

Incorrect. There has never been a documented incident of a European fencer fighting a japanese samurai.
In fact, this is as big a legend as "katanas can cut through gun barrels". There are several versions of this tale, one being this:

"The Dutchman kept avoiding the katana, while making successful thrusts, none of which were instantly fatal. Eventually, the Samurai got in one good and fatal cut, killing the Dutchman. The Samurai later died from the multiple wounds inflicted on him.

The moral of the supposed story/myth is that both styles were effective."

Now this is alot more true than what you are suggesting, especially since a rapier weighs RELATIVELY less than a katana(both weapons weigh less than 1.3 pounds). HOWEVER, the Dutch never had a recorded incident of one of their sailors killed in a duel with a samurai.

HOWEVER, there was a well recorded incident of japanese and English sailors encoutering japanese.
It is readily available in a recent book Nathaniel's Nutmeg, and the original source can be found from there.


A ship of English merchant/adventurers (potential pirates) encountered a ship of Japanese full-fledged pirates. The Japanese seemed peaceful and friendly enough, so the two crews get accquainted. Once on board the English ship, the Japanese suddenly whipped out their swords and began attacking the English. Things were going badly for the Europeans, until someone got some pikes out. With these, they were able to herd the Japanese into one cabin (astern, I think). The English couldn't go in, and the Japanese couldn't go out. The English unleashed one of the cannon, pointed it at the cabin door, and blew the Japanese to pieces.

Now there is one source that MIGHT hold evidence of a duel between a samurai and a european in a book called "Peregrinations". However, said book is not readily available.

The moral of the story is that both fencing and kenjutsu are equally effective.

[FOG3]

I saw a book at Borders from AotC. Visual guide or dictionary I think it was. It said Kenobi used Style 3, which evolved from countering blasters. Dooku used Style 2 which is supposed to be anchient and elegant. Anakin used Style 4 known for its power. Being from a official source I thought it might have some bearing on this debate.

Anakin uses form 5. Some Jedi realized that form 3 was too passive. A form 3 master is impossible to defeat, but he might not be able to defeat an enemy himself. Form 3 is form 5 with an empasis on defenses becoming attacks.

Form 2 is the most similar to real-life fencing of any of the forms.

Thank you, I was wondering about that. Is there something (web page or book) that goes to any depth on this?

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Lets begin with the basics of swordsmanship. Swordsmanship may be called an art, but in reality its a very precise and exact science. More specifically geometry. The idea is this: Conservative movements and swift precise responses. With this in mind, the Old Trilogy's lightsaber sequences are greatly superior to the new trilogy's. Luke Skywalker's 'horsestance' is actually proper, as is his half step approaches at the enemy. As one person has put it here, Luke 'hacks and slashes'.... well, that's PRECISELY what swordsmanship is about, hacking and slashing your opponent. The New Trilogy focuses more on gimmicks/Special Effects, even a touch of wushu. Unfortunately, I feel that this isn't right for Star Wars. Darth Maul's double blade lightsaber is the biggest offender here. The weapon, due to its nature, loses the advantages of both a regular lightsaber and a bo staff. Because you can't stretch the weapon out in a single hand to get maximum range and motion, you get half the reach of a normal lightsaber. Because you can't touch the full length of the weapon, you don't get the range of a bostaff. In fact, the weapon has a rather large(180 degree) blindspot.

AOTC was even worse. Windmill action is not proper swordsmanship.


Also, while addressing fencing vs Kenjutsu... here's an interesting fact. Miyamato Musashi's famous Nitoh Ryu(using both a wakizashi and katana at once) was believed to be inspired by the European fencing style of a daggar and rapier. If fencing was so far below kenjutsu, why would one of the most famous sword saints use a style based off of fencing?

[ChaosBurnFlame]

As to what jedi precog and massless blades should amount to? Well, if precog is as good as I hear, then a battle between two force users will be nothing but a series of feints with the two blades making contact only rarely... If anything ANH was the most accurate portrayl of Force Precog at work, when using logic.

[Stuart Mackey]

snip
The moral of the story is that both fencing and kenjutsu are equally effective.

This is true. I have found that when it comes to fighting it is about the overall level of experience, skill, fitness, size,speed etc etc.
It must also be remembered that not every Samurai was an expert with a katana nor was every European an expert with a blade. It should be remembered that in both societys that sword wearing was either a article of fastion, badge of office/symbol of place in society, simply wearing a sword does not automaticaly imply expertise in its use.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Also, I'd like to say that the thread starter here not only mangages to totally speak out of his ass with no real sources but also totally insults the very professionals who make modern swordsmanship possible. Just because they might or might not disagree with you(a fine example of appeal to ridicule if I saw one).

As I stated before, swordsmanship is a very precise science. A science which is limited to the shape of the weapon and the dimensions of the person wielding it. Blades themselves in both kenjutsu and european swordarts rarely weigh over 3 pounds, and the latter dueling blades do not even go over a pound. A Lightsaber blade, however, is massless. It also makes a near fatal cut with the smallest of contact. If anything, this should dictate lightsaber usage should echo the latter epee and rapier fencing styles where quick, shallow cuts were the emphasis, using the light weight of the weapon to the greatest advantage.

Now about force precognition. Quite simply, if both force users know in a duel what the other might do, then, to follow the rather self explanitory mandate of conservative motion, a jedi/sith battle would be nothing more than a series of feints with the two blades rarely making contact. Conservative movements is a big thing in martial arts because it conserves strength and stamina and makes quick responses to attacks. it simply makes more sense than twirling around.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

And an article on Rapier vs Katana

http://www.thehaca.com/essays/katanavs.htm

I think you'll find it interesting, especially those that preach kenjutsu superiority over fencing. The misinformed, the idiotic, and the downright fanatical have to be educated sometime.

[YT300000]

Thank you, I was wondering about that. Is there something (web page or book) that goes to any depth on this?

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/y_oda20 ... forms.html

[Stuart Mackey]

And an article on Rapier vs Katana

http://www.thehaca.com/essays/katanavs.htm

I think you'll find it interesting, especially those that preach kenjutsu superiority over fencing. The misinformed, the idiotic, and the downright fanatical have to be educated sometime.

Ahh an HACA type, I can see from your posts that you take the same veiw on fighting that I do..apply the scientific method....

[ChaosBurnFlame]

And an article on Rapier vs Katana

http://www.thehaca.com/essays/katanavs.htm

I think you'll find it interesting, especially those that preach kenjutsu superiority over fencing. The misinformed, the idiotic, and the downright fanatical have to be educated sometime.

Ahh an HACA type, I can see from your posts that you take the same veiw on fighting that I do..apply the scientific method....

Well, I mean its quite stupid, the amount of disdain for fencing these idiots show and the exhaulting of the 'holy katana arts'.... Especially when fencing practices of shallow cuts and quick attacks would fit with lightsabers more than kenjutsu. Also, all credible kenjutsu and iaido instructors have a geniune respect for fencing, something the majority of this board does not. For that I have to say this: Don't complain about someone else's ego before looking in your own backyard.