Scarlet-Spider vs Jedi

[Crown]

Unless Impact Webbing is going in excess of bullets the Jedi can both avoid(TPM) and/or slice them out of the Air.

Impact webbing can penetrate the Venom symbiote which can protect Eddie Brock from bullets, so they can travel at least as fast as bullets.

And Han's blaster can blast large chunks out of concrete walls, and yet Vader didn't have a problem.

Webbing same problem.

Webbing set on a wide spray would give a Jedi problem. While slower than impact webbing, it would have a wider cross section than a lightsaber.

Mike has already shown how fast a Jedi can move, and I have already shown that a Jedi wouldn't have to do jack shit to beat Spiderman.

Jedi can hold Ben by TK force.

You mean like when Obi Wan held Jango and Boba Fett with Force TK so they couldn't fight back and brought both of them to Corusaunt. No wait, he didn't.

No we mean like Yoda did in Vision of the Future.

Jedi still has a greater reach in hand to hand combat and a superior pre-cog talent.

Please. Obi Wan was caught off guard by a destroyer droid while he was pissing and moaning about Anakin running off to Tatooine. Spider-Man's spider-sense was able to detect the Invisible Woman (ASM #1).

And yet he was able to sense an assasin droid in the Senetor's room while bitchin' with Anakin. And point of fact Obi-Wan was over whelmed by the droids in AotC, not taken by suprise since he clearly was on the defensive before they attacked. Your sophistry is annoying.

[Darth Wong]

Look, this situation is very simple: you can find examples where Spidey was not that fast (see Doc Ock grabbing him), and you can also find examples where Spidey was very fast (see him dodging bullets). You can also find examples where Jedi are incredibly powerful (see hurling fleets of multi-billion ton starships out of a star system) or examples where you have to wonder why they didn't use their full capabilities (see Jedi not using TK effectively in AOTC, although that may have been a special circumstance).

The only fair way to approach this is to either use low-end examples for both or high-end examples for both. But the comic/anime fan-whores seem bent on declaring that the only fair way is to use high-end for Spidey and low-end for Jedi. Anyone who can't see what's wrong with this approach is either a delusional fan-whore or a delusional fan-whore's butt-buddy.

[KK]

You've been reduced to claiming that Jedi can't use Force-chokes (which is manifestly untrue)

Your only evidence that JEDI use force chokes are scenes where two explicitly NON-JEDI use them. That in itself is pathetic.

Us: "Jedi don't use force chokes."
Yoda: "Dude, they're right."
You: "Bu-u-u-u-t Vaaaader and Luke did iiiit!!" *kicks and screams*
Us: "Neither Vader nor Luke are representative of true Jedi."
You: *holds breath till you get your way*

Sorry, but claiming over and over again that you are right when you've got no evidence at all doesn't cut it.

And then there's the whole "Yoda is a pussy next to the average Jedi" utter trash you've spewed. And based on what? A feat that required every Jedi from the entire academy and that killed the one the power was channeled through?

and that "attack" does not apply if the target is not organic (also untrue).

Droids are no more than weapons. The Jedi knocked over some weapons. In no way does that translate to popping arteries.

How about showing one example of a true Jedi using the force to attack another living being?

The quote from Yoda was more on a moral standpoint than anything, and arguing semantics of the word attack doesn't change the varrying degree of morality between knocking over a machine and killing a living being.

So what if it's 0.2 seconds instead of 0.5 seconds? Divide 0.2 by 40 and you get 0.005 seconds. That is a result in the MILLISECOND range, not the microsecond range. Thank you for proving yet again that you are a blithering idiot. Now we see that you don't even know how to operate a calculator.

And you accuse him of nit-picking.

Millisecond, microsecond, fucking picosecond. Faster than a Jedi is faster than a Jedi any way you label it. And that's just reflexes. Add in actual speed, which we've seen can dodge multiple lasers from all different angles like there's no tomorrow, and the Jedi is a statue.

You act as though pointing out that he labeled the fraction of a second incorrectly refutes the point. Bad form, Wong.

[Darth Wong]

Your only evidence that JEDI use force chokes are scenes where two explicitly NON-JEDI use them. That in itself is pathetic.

Luke is a Jedi, you lying asshole.

Us: "Jedi don't use force chokes."
Yoda: "Dude, they're right."
You: "Bu-u-u-u-t Vaaaader and Luke did iiiit!!" *kicks and screams*
Us: "Neither Vader nor Luke are representative of true Jedi."
You: *holds breath till you get your way*

Actually, the last line is Me: points out that Luke is a Jedi, waits for you to acknowledge the point even though you're sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "la la la la la, I can't hear you".

and that "attack" does not apply if the target is not organic (also untrue).

Droids are no more than weapons. The Jedi knocked over some weapons. In no way does that translate to popping arteries.

The force required is much larger, and you can "attack" an inanimate target such as a building, so that "never for attack" line you keep harping on is a waste of time. Besides, battle droids have sentience; they can feel fear, for example. What do you think it means when a droid says "uh oh" and starts backing away, dumb-ass?

How about showing one example of a true Jedi using the force to attack another living being?

How about you proving your unsupported claim that Luke does not count as a Jedi?

Millisecond, microsecond, fucking picosecond. Faster than a Jedi is faster than a Jedi any way you label it. And that's just reflexes.

You're an idiot. A Jedi's reactions are faster than 0, never mind milliseconds.

Add in actual speed, which we've seen can dodge multiple lasers from all different angles like there's no tomorrow, and the Jedi is a statue.

And yet we've also seen Spidey getting knocked down by blows to the head which, according to you, should never happen. Your modus operandi is to take a concept like reaction speed and assume that a person is like a machine, and will always have flawlessly consistent performance, so that any poor incident must be an upper limit to his capabilities. That is fucking moronic in its own right.

You act as though pointing out that he labeled the fraction of a second incorrectly refutes the point. Bad form, Wong.

Bullshit; he nitpicked 0.5 seconds to 0.25 seconds, and I pointed out that he (and you, who used the same point) failed to change anything. it is a pathetic hypocrisy for you to accuse me of nitpicking for pointing out a THREE ORDER OF MAGNITUDE error when you were screeching about an error well under ONE order of magnitude.

[Crown]

Do I have to keep posting this until you actually see that a Jedi doesn't A) need to use a force choke to defeat Spiderman and B) show a Jedi can use TK on a living person?

Karrde nodded, the last mestery of the beckon call lying abandoned in the Dagobah swamp suddenly falling into plac. "And so you went back to Yoda and asked for help."
"Asked?" Car'das gave a short, self-deprecating laugh. "Not asked, Talon. Demanded."
He shook his head at the memory. "It must have looked quite absurd, really. There I stood, towering over him with a blaster in one hand and my beckon call in the other, threatening to bring my ship and all its awesome weaponry to bear on this short, wizened creature leaning on a staff in front of me. Of courese, I was the single-handed creator of the greatest smuggling organization of all time, while he was nothing but a simple little Jedi Master." He shook his head again.
"I'm suprised he didn't kill you on the spot," Shada said.
"At the time, I almost wished he had," Car'das said ruefully. "It would have been far less humiliating. Instead, he simply took the beckon call and blaster away from me and sent them spinning off into the swamp, then held me suspended a few centimeters above the ground and let me scream and flail to my heart's content.
"And when I finally ran out of strength and breath, he told me I was going to die."

[KK]

Look, this situation is very simple: you can find examples where Spidey was not that fast (see Doc Ock grabbing him), and you can also find examples where Spidey was very fast (see him dodging bullets). You can also find examples where Jedi are incredibly powerful (see hurling fleets of multi-billion ton starships out of a star system) or examples where you have to wonder why they didn't use their full capabilities (see Jedi not using TK effectively in AOTC, although that may have been a special circumstance).

It doesn't help that most of the comic supports have watched and read quite a bit of Star Wars stuff, while the Star Wars supporters seemingly haven't read shit in terms of comics.

Hence such arguments as Doc Ock grabbing him compared to him dodging bullets, which ignores that Doc Ock's tenticles are faster than bullets, and furthermore can change trajectory while moving, unlike bullets.

The only fair way to approach this is to either use low-end examples for both or high-end examples for both. But the comic/anime fan-whores seem bent on declaring that the only fair way is to use high-end for Spidey and low-end for Jedi. Anyone who can't see what's wrong with this approach is either a delusional fan-whore or a delusional fan-whore's butt-buddy.

Or we can use the average protrayal, and note that the lone outlier feat for Jedi is way out of line with the rest of the entire history of the Star Wars universe, while Spider-Man does things like dodge bullets and lasers on a monthly basis.

The high-end Spider-Man feats outnumber the low-end Spider-Man feats, while the low-end Jedi feats FAR outnumber the high-end Jedi feats.

On average, the Jedi are presented on their lower level. The main example you have for their high level required an entire Academy of Jedi and killed one of them, so it isn't even an actual display of power for a single Jedi, anyway.

On average, bullets are nothing to Spider-Man. He dodges them all the time. He dodges lasers all the time, too. And generally he's nearly untouchable in combat. All you have are a limited few examples of him not being so fast, and with many you left out circumstances, such as gas slowing him down or the person using an area-of-effect attack.

Your argument about using high for one and low for the other is nonsensical, when one character has mostly his high end feats, while the other has mostly his low end feats.

1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 10 -vs- 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 1

Would you say those two groups of numbers average out to the same, since their high ends are equal and their low ends are equal? Because that's essentially what you're saying.

[Typhonis 1]

What if the Jedi throwws Spidey into a brick wall?Danger sense merly shows that danger is nearby not the nature of the danger .Precog lets the Jedi know what is going to happen

[AdmiralKanos]

Hence such arguments as Doc Ock grabbing him compared to him dodging bullets, which ignores that Doc Ock's tenticles are faster than bullets, and furthermore can change trajectory while moving, unlike bullets.

If Doc Ock's tentacles were actually faster than bullets, the reaction forces would throw him off his feet, dumb-ass. The fact that he blocks bullets with them is merely due to the habitually horrible effectiveness of guns in the Marvel universe. Need I remind you that Captain America, a steroid-enhanced but otherwise normal human, has survived for decades with nothing but a two foot shield to protect him? (EDIT: not to mention Daredevil ...)

Or we can use the average protrayal, and note that the lone outlier feat for Jedi is way out of line with the rest of the entire history of the Star Wars universe, while Spider-Man does things like dodge bullets and lasers on a monthly basis.

It is not a lone outlier feat; you have deliberately ignored numerous other incidents listed in this thread, such as Luke bringing down a fucking AT-AT.

The high-end Spider-Man feats outnumber the low-end Spider-Man feats, while the low-end Jedi feats FAR outnumber the high-end Jedi feats.

That's a bullshit argument; Spidey has been a published comic for 30 years; there are obviously more incidents.

On average, the Jedi are presented on their lower level. The main example you have for their high level required an entire Academy of Jedi and killed one of them, so it isn't even an actual display of power for a single Jedi, anyway.

It is also trillions upon trillions of times greater than anything Spidey has ever done. Do the math, dumb-ass.

On average, bullets are nothing to Spider-Man. He dodges them all the time.

Marvel bullets are a joke. See Captain America. Take that character out of his retarded-bullet milieu and put him in a neutral setting, and he'll go down.

He dodges lasers all the time, too. And generally he's nearly untouchable in combat. All you have are a limited few examples of him not being so fast, and with many you left out circumstances, such as gas slowing him down or the person using an area-of-effect attack.

Funny how "circumstances" only count when they affect Spidey, and not the Jedi (see AOTC and their diminished use of the Force).

Your argument about using high for one and low for the other is nonsensical, when one character has mostly his high end feats, while the other has mostly his low end feats.

1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 10 -vs- 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 1

Would you say those two groups of numbers average out to the same, since their high ends are equal and their low ends are equal? Because that's essentially what you're saying.

No, that's what YOU'RE saying, since you refuse to accept the other incidents which have been pointed out, and you misrepresent Spiderman in various ways.

[KK]

Luke is a Jedi, you lying asshole.

LUKE: "Then I am a Jedi?"
YODA: "Ohhh. Not yet."
-Return of the Jedi

What's more is that the reason he wasn't a Jedi was because he needed to confront Vader and overcome the temptation of the dark side, which he had yet to do.

Actually, the last line is Me: points out that Luke is a Jedi, waits for you to acknowledge the point even though you're sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "la la la la la, I can't hear you".

I don't make practice of acknowledging points which the movie flat out states are wrong.

Luke: "Then I am a Jedi."
Wong: "Hell yes you are!"
Yoda: "Uh, no dude. Overcome the dark side he must, if a Jedi he is to become."
Wong: "Fuck that!"

Start acknowledging the movies, and I'll start acknowledging you.

The force required is much larger, and you can "attack" an inanimate target such as a building, so that "never for attack" line you keep harping on is a waste of time. Besides, battle droids have sentience; they can feel fear, for example. What do you think it means when a droid says "uh oh" and starts backing away, dumb-ass?

Droids don't have true sentience. Some have very complex programming, but they're still machines. They aren't even allowed in many public places like bars, because they aren't treated like living beings. And that's complex droids like C-3P0, let alone mass-produced battle droids.

It's well proven that droids are not treated like living beings. Semantics doesn't change anything.

How about you proving your unsupported claim that Luke does not count as a Jedi?

Unsupported by Wong's wet-dream.

Supported by the movies.

Frankly I'll take the movies.

You're an idiot. A Jedi's reactions are faster than 0, never mind milliseconds.

We're not factoring precog yet. We're on reaction speed. The speed between when a Jedi's precog kicks in and when they react to it is what you should be concentrating on.

Spider-Man ALSO has precog, and if he can react to it faster than a Jedi can react to his precog then he still has the edge.

The spider-sense has a track record that puts Jedi precog to shame, as well. In Infinity Abyss his spider-sense alerted him to a danger all the way across the state several hours into the future, which is how long it would take him to get to the location of the danger down to a couple of seconds.

And yet we've also seen Spidey getting knocked down by blows to the head which, according to you, should never happen.

Name them.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Unless Impact Webbing is going in excess of bullets the Jedi can both avoid(TPM) and/or slice them out of the Air.

Impact webbing can penetrate the Venom symbiote which can protect Eddie Brock from bullets, so they can travel at least as fast as bullets.

And Han's blaster can blast large chunks out of concrete walls, and yet Vader didn't have a problem.

And if the Jedi was armed with a blaster, that would mean something.

Webbing same problem.

Webbing set on a wide spray would give a Jedi problem. While slower than impact webbing, it would have a wider cross section than a lightsaber.

Mike has already shown how fast a Jedi can move,

Yeah, he showed how fast they run *in a straight line*. There's a big difference between running a 40-meter sprint and running, stopping, changing direction, accelerate, go to a stop, change direction again, and repeat this several times. A person can go much faster in a straight run than trying to weave back and forth.

and I have already shown that a Jedi wouldn't have to do jack shit to beat Spiderman.

You mean using the Force-choke. Sorry, but I don't believe that Spider-Man's neck muscles are somehow as weak as a normal human's neck muscle even though he's strong enough to pick and throw around cars.

Jedi can hold Ben by TK force.

You mean like when Obi Wan held Jango and Boba Fett with Force TK so they couldn't fight back and brought both of them to Corusaunt. No wait, he didn't.

No we mean like Yoda did in Vision of the Future.

And how many Jedi could match Yoda's abilities in the Force: none.

Jedi still has a greater reach in hand to hand combat and a superior pre-cog talent.

Please. Obi Wan was caught off guard by a destroyer droid while he was pissing and moaning about Anakin running off to Tatooine. Spider-Man's spider-sense was able to detect the Invisible Woman (ASM #1).

And yet he was able to sense an assasin droid in the Senetor's room while bitchin' with Anakin.

Only after it penetrated the force field around the room, burrow a hole through the window, and releasing those centipedes. Odds are, Obi Wan realized his attention was away from Padame and then sensed the centipedes.

And point of fact Obi-Wan was over whelmed by the droids in AotC, not taken by suprise since he clearly was on the defensive before they attacked.

The point was he was caught off and his Force pre-cog didn't save him. And he wasn't overwelmed either by a large number of droids. It took only one destroyer droid to bring him down.

Your sophistry is annoying.

But not as annoying as your fanboy wanking.

[KK]

If Doc Ock's tentacles were actually faster than bullets, the reaction forces would throw him off his feet, dumb-ass.

But they DON'T. Comics physics are a bitch. Like you.

The fact that he blocks bullets with them is merely due to the habitually horrible effectiveness of guns in the Marvel universe.

Wow. What an amazing cop-out.

Doc Ock can move his tenticles faster than bullets, and somehow that means the bullets are actually slower.

I wonder what would happen if a Trekkie blamed Jedi blocking blaster bolts on blasters having horrible effectiveness in the SW universe.

Need I remind you that Captain America, a steroid-enhanced but otherwise normal human, has survived for decades with nothing but a two foot shield to protect him? (EDIT: not to mention Daredevil ...)

Cap has dodged a shot from a sniper rifle AFTER it was shot, and it hit where he had been standing. He's not a normal human by any stretch of the imagination. He once punched through a side of a nuclear reactor containment vessel, has stunned Namor with a punch, has held his own against an army of Hulk clones, has broken the grip of the Hulk, has danced in-between machine-gun fire, and trains daily dodging live rounds. "Steroids" don't begin to describe the super soldier syrum and vita-rays.

And Daredevil has a radar sense that can be attributed to his ability to block a bullet. He knows where and when the bullet will be before the trigger is even fired.

It is not a lone outlier feat; you have deliberately ignored numerous other incidents listed in this thread, such as Luke bringing down a fucking AT-AT.

When did Luke bring down an AT-AT?

Even so...ok. Two feats compared to the countless others that are nowhere near that level.

That's a bullshit argument; Spidey has been a published comic for 30 years; there are obviously more incidents.

It would have been bullshit if my argument had been that Spider-Man's feats outnumbered Jedi feats. But that wasn't my argument, Mr. Strawman.

I said the ratio of Spider-Man's high end feats to his low end feats is much more impressive than the ratio of Jedi high end feats to their low end feats.

The high end Jedi feats are out of line with their average portrayal. The low end Spider-Man feats are out of line with his average protrayal.

It is also trillions upon trillions of times greater than anything Spidey has ever done. Do the math, dumb-ass.

Except that it isn't.

Spider-Man has beaten the shit out of Firelord, a damn herald of Galactus. Firelord can fly through supernovas, fight in black holes, and eats starfleets for breakfast. Spider-Man knocked him the fuck out in a straight up fight. He's done the same to Silver Surfer.

Now I freely admit that feat is as far out of line with Spider-Man's average as the Star Destroyer thing is with the Jedi average. So I don't try to pass it off as his "high end." Instead I file it under "bullshit feat that doesn't fit his history."

But if you want to insist on the damn Star Destroyer feat, then I'll stick with Spidey beating heralds, who put Star Destroyers to shame.

No, that's what YOU'RE saying, since you refuse to accept the other incidents which have been pointed out, and you misrepresent Spiderman in various ways.

Now this just blatantly prove you have no idea what I just said.

If 98% of Spider-man's career is made up of his higher-end feats, and 98% of Jedi history is made up of of their lower-end feats, then it's nonsensical to say we should stick with high-end or low-end feats "just because".

[AdmiralKanos]

Luke is a Jedi, you lying asshole.

LUKE: "Then I am a Jedi?"
YODA: "Ohhh. Not yet."
-Return of the Jedi

So you interpret this to mean he has GREATER abilities than a Jedi, or worse yet, that he is a Dark sider? You're a bigger idiot than I thought.

Droids don't have true sentience. Some have very complex programming, but they're still machines. They aren't even allowed in many public places like bars, because they aren't treated like living beings. And that's complex droids like C-3P0, let alone mass-produced battle droids.

Prove your statement that anti-droid discrimination proves they lack sentience. By your worthless idiot logic, blacks are sub-human, because that was widely held to be true at one time.

It's well proven that droids are not treated like living beings. Semantics doesn't change anything.

It also doesn't change the fact that the word "attack" does not apply exclusively to living beings anyway, dumb-ass. You are seizing upon an opportunity to attack a side issue and evade the main one.

We're not factoring precog yet. We're on reaction speed. The speed between when a Jedi's precog kicks in and when they react to it is what you should be concentrating on.

Irrelevant. See the Jedi Invisibility thread. They win both ways.

Spider-Man ALSO has precog, and if he can react to it faster than a Jedi can react to his precog then he still has the edge.

Not without TK, and Crown has repeatedly posted evidence that Jedi can use TK against people. Stop ignoring it.

The spider-sense has a track record that puts Jedi precog to shame, as well. In Infinity Abyss his spider-sense alerted him to a danger all the way across the state several hours into the future, which is how long it would take him to get to the location of the danger down to a couple of seconds.

And in TESB, a young, untrained Jedi named Luke Skywalker was able to foresee his friends being tortured even though they were LIGHT YEARS away, dumb-ass.

BTW, Uncle Ben. Gwen Stacy. Spidey's precog doesn't work as well as you seem to think.

And yet we've also seen Spidey getting knocked down by blows to the head which, according to you, should never happen.

Name them.

Kraven's Last Hunt. Spidey is knocked out by a tranquilizer dart because his Spidey sense is too slow (OK, it was a hit to the body, not the head, but that's close enough). He is then captured and shot by Kraven, who buries him (he eventually crawls out of the grave, injured but alive). It turns out that Kraven let him live.

Did you hear that? In Kraven's Last Hunt, Spidey was knocked out by a tranquilizer dart!

I suppose you will simply ignore this and resume your fan-whore wanking, so I thought I would put it in bold-face.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Do I have to keep posting this until you actually see that a Jedi doesn't A) need to use a force choke to defeat Spiderman and B) show a Jedi can use TK on a living person?

Karrde nodded, the last mestery of the beckon call lying abandoned in the Dagobah swamp suddenly falling into plac. "And so you went back to Yoda and asked for help."
"Asked?" Car'das gave a short, self-deprecating laugh. "Not asked, Talon. Demanded."
He shook his head at the memory. "It must have looked quite absurd, really. There I stood, towering over him with a blaster in one hand and my beckon call in the other, threatening to bring my ship and all its awesome weaponry to bear on this short, wizened creature leaning on a staff in front of me. Of courese, I was the single-handed creator of the greatest smuggling organization of all time, while he was nothing but a simple little Jedi Master." He shook his head again.
"I'm suprised he didn't kill you on the spot," Shada said.
"At the time, I almost wished he had," Car'das said ruefully. "It would have been far less humiliating. Instead, he simply took the beckon call and blaster away from me and sent them spinning off into the swamp, then held me suspended a few centimeters above the ground and let me scream and flail to my heart's content.
"And when I finally ran out of strength and breath, he told me I was going to die."

Nice example. Now show us where Talon Car'das is strong enough to pick up a greyhound bus and can dodge laser and gun fire while cracking jokes.

[AdmiralKanos]

Nice example. Now show us where Talon Car'das is strong enough to pick up a greyhound bus and can dodge laser and gun fire while cracking jokes.

Who the fuck CAN'T dodge Marvelverse laser and gunfire? See Captain America and Daredevil; one need not be superhuman in order to dodge bullets in the Marvelverse.

PS. Kraven's Last Hunt. Say it with me.

[Crossover_Maniac]

And in TESB, a young, untrained Jedi named Luke Skywalker was able to foresee his friends being tortured even though they were LIGHT YEARS away, dumb-ass.

BTW, Uncle Ben. Gwen Stacy. Spidey's precog doesn't work as well as you seem to think.

And by the same token, Force pre-cog isn't that great when Palpatine didn't see Vader betraying him and tossing down the DS II shaft. But back to the subject at hand, Jedi pre-cog is better in the long term than Spider-sense (Spider-sense is more like a radar that gives the appearance of precognition than actual precognition), but for tactical, short-term precognition, Spider-Man's spider-sense has a better track record.

Kraven's Last Hunt. Spidey is knocked out by a tranquilizer dart because his Spidey sense is too slow (OK, it was a hit to the body, not the head, but that's close enough). He is then captured and shot by Kraven, who buries him (he eventually crawls out of the grave, injured but alive). It turns out that Kraven let him live.

Did you hear that? In Kraven's Last Hunt, Spidey was knocked out by a tranquilizer dart!

And in that same storyline, Spider-Man was buried alive for two weeks before he dug his way out of his own grave showing super-human endurance. Also from http://www.geocities.com/ironpat/Spider-Man.html

*Spectacular Spider-Man #138 His body can take poison that is enough to kill a normal man in a matter of minutes. It was shown when he got kicked with a poison tipped boot from La Tarantula. In fact after a few minutes he actually was regaining his strength.

Taken into accounts all of the time Spider-Man shrugged off poisons, blows, electric shock, and other attacks that would easily kill a normal human being, odds are the contents of Kraven's tranquilizer dart would have killed a normal human being.

[KK]

So you interpret this to mean he has GREATER abilities than a Jedi, or worse yet, that he is a Dark sider? You're a bigger idiot than I thought.

The above requires that a force choke be viewed as a "great" ability.

I interperet it to mean he is NOT a Jedi, which is all I ever said I interpreted it to mean, asshole. If he is NOT a Jedi, then he cannot be used as representation of a Jedi.

Prove your statement that anti-droid discrimination proves they lack sentience. By your worthless idiot logic, blacks are sub-human, because that was widely held to be true at one time.

Utterly worthless argument.

If they aren't treated or viewed as sentient, then it doesn't matter if they technically are or not.

Black people have always been sentient humans, but that didn't stop people from treating them differently, as you just said. Your own argument supports my stance.

If droids weren't viewed as sentient, then the Jedi wouldn't treat them as sentient. Whether they could be technically defined as capable of sentience is irrelevant.

It also doesn't change the fact that the word "attack" does not apply exclusively to living beings anyway, dumb-ass.

Semantics are a tool of lame-asses who have no real argument.

Irrelevant. See the Jedi Invisibility thread. They win both ways.

I saw the Jedi invisibility thread. I'd look at it again but I only recently stopped laughing.

The Jedi ran across the hall really fast in all of two frames. And that's your argument that they are faster than a guy whom I posted several references of dodging multiple lasers and several other references of him appearing as a cyclone or attacking his foes dozens of times before they can move?

Not without TK, and Crown has repeatedly posted evidence that Jedi can use TK against people. Stop ignoring it.

We're talking about speed, and all of the sudden you switch violently to TK. And you accuse me of dodging.

But since you demand it, we'll go on about TK. He posted evidence that a Jedi can rip a gun from a man's hands. And that means he could instantly rip off the web-shooters that he wouldn't know about and that he still has to react to before Spider-Man can?

And again I have to point out that before you can argue how the Jedi could win, you have to prove he could attack before he's covered in web, or simply before he's been knocked out. If all of our discussions about speed end in you changing the subject to TK, what does that say about the speed part of the debate?

And in TESB, a young, untrained Jedi named Luke Skywalker was able to foresee his friends being tortured even though they were LIGHT YEARS away, dumb-ass.

Are you fucking incapable of making a counter-point without using the word "dumb-ass" like making your point completely invalidates any merit to the point made?

Luke sensed that his friends would be in pain and that's it.

Spider-Man's head went ablaze with a virtual map to the precise location of a danger to the universe and an exact moment for when the danger would appear.

Luke has a general precognative sense and is attuned to his friends. It is nowhere near as reliable as the spider-sense, and certainly not as precise in regards to telling him how to react.

But I think the main point you're missing is that they BOTH have precog, and thus precog alone can't be held over the other side's head and used as a crutch. Not without the speed to back it up.

BTW, Uncle Ben. Gwen Stacy. Spidey's precog doesn't work as well as you seem to think.

What a joke.

His Uncle Ben died in Spider-Man's very first appearance before he understood his powers. Even mentioning that is rediculous.

And the spider-sense did go off with Gwen Stacy. She was falling off a birdge, so one would assume falling to her death is a pretty big danger. So he responded to that by shooting web at her, which made his spider-sense go off again. Then he realized the quick stop snapped her neck.

Do I really need to mention the number of times Jedi precog proves as trustworthy as an American automobile, if it's even acknowledged?

Kraven's Last Hunt. Spidey is knocked out by a tranquilizer dart because his Spidey sense is too slow (OK, it was a hit to the body, not the head, but that's close enough). He is then captured and shot by Kraven, who buries him (he eventually crawls out of the grave, injured but alive). It turns out that Kraven let him live.

I said "them" but whatever.

He got hit by a tranq in a complex trap set by the best hunter in the MU. And somehow that sets the standard for the speed of his spider-sense and negates the dozens upon dozens upon dozens upon dozens of references of his spider-sense and speed when their isn't a master trap with prep-time involved.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because it's been awhile since I read that arc, but wasn't Spidey slowed down a bit by gas before this?

Did you hear that? In Kraven's Last Hunt, Spidey was knocked out by a tranquilizer dart!

Hooray?

So that's, what? 1 reference to, I dunno, let's be reserved and say 500. And it was part of a trap laid out by Kraven the Hunter with prep-time. Great, grand, wonderful.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Who the fuck CAN'T dodge Marvelverse laser and gunfire?

Just about everyone in the Marvelverse who doesn't have superhuman reflects or some sort of heighten sense that tells them where the bullet is aimed at before it's even fired.

See Captain America and Daredevil;

Captain America has superhuman strength and reflects and Daredevil's radar allows him to dodge bullets. In fact, the only time bullets were a major problem for him was when his radar was being disrupted.

one need not be superhuman in order to dodge bullets in the Marvelverse.

Do you actually read Marvel or do you go on heresay because the last thing you can call Captain America and Daredevil is normal human beings.

PS. Kraven's Last Hunt. Say it with me.

PS. All of the other issues of Spider-Man. Say it with me.

[KK]

Who the fuck CAN'T dodge Marvelverse laser and gunfire?

Cop-out.

See Captain America and Daredevil; one need not be superhuman in order to dodge bullets in the Marvelverse.

For one, Cap and Daredevil are both superhuman, so your point is null.

For two, neither Cap nor Daredevil dodge bullets nearly in the same way Spidey does. They dodge one or two at a time by being faster than the gunman's ability to aim. Spidey, on the other hand, stands in the middle of a continual stream of machine-gun fire from multiple guns and contorts his body so that none of the individual bullets make contact. He does the same with lasers, as my references show.

PS. Kraven's Last Hunt. Say it with me.

Great. You've found one bit of evidence against the hundreds that support me, and you're going to ride it like Tiny Tim's crutch.

[Connor MacLeod]

Consequences: Check again. We answered all your accusations.

You claimed that there wasn't enough recoil. We gave proof that the force of the blast was explosive, not just kinetic.

No, I claimed there was TOO MUCH RECOIL (and I'm Connor, try to keep your challengers straight. ) and that DBZers were incapable of handling it.

As for your "proof", you obviously know fuck-all about mass and energy. E=MC^2. ENERGY HAS MASS. A LOT OF ENERGY EQUALS ALOT OF MASS. The energies involving scattering a planets mass qualifies as ALOT OF ENERGY. Momentum is Mass x velocity.

It doesn't matter if they fire it like a bullet or a laser or fling it like a grenade (they do both, technically), it will STILL exhibit recoil (You do remember learning in science class that "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" right?)

You rejected that for no good reason. We gave you examples of Z-fighters blatantly ignoring the forces whipping around them, or even being projected at them.

1.) I gave you a good reason above. You inability to understand basic science (which has been demonstrated repeatedly before, I might add.) does not change this.

2.) Did you even bother to quantify these forces or consider the MAGNITUDE? The recoil generated by a KT or MT level blast is not going to act on a body the same way as a planet-killing, or planet-shattering blast is.

Arbitrarily assuming that all blasts are planet-shattering by default (or a substantial fraction of it) and figuring because they are observed handling blasts without a problem does not work unless you prove those blasts are in fact of that magnitude to begin with.

Then you tried to get nitpicky, saying that even if they had the major effects, just because the details were ignored, they couldn't have done it. We said no kidding, as the animation crew were ignorant of all the details.

No. I never said that (maybe consequences did, but I did not.) Ignorance of the creators is not an excuse to ignore suspension of disbelif or science arbitrarily. I told you that you had one of two choices - either treat it as being inapplicable to analysis (meaning you can't go around claiming they generate the required levels of energy, since that requires suspension of disbelief), or you obey suspension of disbelief and adhere to science. You don't get to ignore science and still pretend you are actually analyzing something as if it does obey suspension of disbelief.

If you cannot learn the difference, I suggest you reeducate yourself on suspension of disbelief and the scientific method.

But we answered your shit in the relevant thread already. You want to bring it back up, bring the thread back up. Not here.

No, you presented a shitload of speculation and denial, logical fallacies, and outright dismissals of the scientific method and suspension of disbelief
(most if not all of which was repeated here), and never once actually even bothered to read or address what I actually said or demanded. The answer to this is obvious: because you're a boatload of inept fanwhores who could not do a proper analysis if your lives depended upon it.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ad hominem.

Really? Where am I attacking you rather than addressing your "Argument", pray tell? As I recall, I am addressing the argument as well as pointing out your stupidity (and that of the DBZ fans I've dealt with in general.)

Ad hominem.

See above. Please tell me where I ignored your argument in favor of attacking you solely.

"You said such and such about DBZ so you are wrong about this!!"

How fucking trite.

Also, why don't you point out the bad logic and ignored facts rather than make blanket statements claiming they exist?

1.) DBZ energy blasts exhibit recoil, and the energy is internal. (The former is proved when Krillin uses an energy discharge to propel himself ABOVE Nappa when distracting him so Piccolo and Gohan can grab his tail. Videl also used her own "energy" to push off the ground and fly in the Buu Saga, or not much before it.)

2.) If these "characterS" were flinging bout Planet-shattering level energies, especially regularly, there should be a substantial momentum imparted to the character that must be accounted for. We are not only talking literally millions of gees or more of acceleration, we're talking a substantial INCREASE in mass (in other words, a STAGGERING degree of force is required.)

If DBZ characters COULD generate this force, acceleration or gravitational fields of hundreds of gravities, much less the tens of gravities in the early parts of the Frieza Saga and before, would be INSIGNIFICANT to those characters. We are talking a literal many orders of magntiude difference.

(Also, it doesnt matter if we "ignored" the recoil issue I mentioned in #1. If they propelled the energy blasts with some external force, they should STILL be able to use that force to ignore gravity, since they use that same energy to fly and such.) This applies to Roshi's so called "moon destruction" in DB (prior to Goku's training on teh way to Namek, and prior to training with King Kai), and the other "early" so called planet-killing events (like Vegeta on earth mentioned below.)

I should also note later on that DBZ characters are STILL training in gravitational fields of only hundreds of gees, which again would be INSIGNIFICANT could they generate orders of magnitude greater acceleration or force (such as required to compensate for the recoil of a planet-shattering DET discharge.) Vegeta even says that a foe who trained in five hundred gravities might have an advantage - but he "barely felt ten". And even before the tournament, he was training AS A SUPER-SAIYAN, under 150 gravities.

In short, they can NOT generate the required force to compensate for a PK blasst, and none of you DBZers ever demonstrated the ability, nor explained canonically where this momentum magically disappeared to.

3.) Complete ignorance of what the enviromental effects of planet killing blasts, or evne a fraction of that energy (planet killing events) would do to a planet, and the lack of such observed effects. (Example: Vegeta claims he is going to destroy earth with his "gallic gun", and Goku uses a Kamehameha wave to counter. If these WERE DET events, where the FUCK is this energy going, since it has to go somewhere. And why isnt the recoil affecting either person more substantially like it should?)

Is that clear enough for you now, or do you need it put in big letters spelled out phoenetically?

I could provide qutes from fucking Akira Toriyama himself saying that he didn't know anything about physics. You can't expect what he wrote to deal with things like recoil.

Which says what exactly? You can't ignore physics under suspension of disbelief then claim a conclusion that requires you to obey suspension of disbelief and scientific method. Either physics doesnt apply to DBZ and it can't be analyzed (which means you dont get your DET event energies), or it does and you must obey suspension of disbelief and the scientific method (which means then you must either demonstrate they CAN generate the required force, or accept the fact they destroy planets by alternate methods, which have been proven to exist.)

This "having your cake and eating it too" dishonesty you exhibit doesn't fly.

Besides, I DID provide proof that the beams were kinetic force, I DID provide references of them being able to counter said force, and I DID

"Kinetic force?" ROFLMAO. What the fuck is "Kinetic force?"

Now, if you mean kinetic energy, what you're simply proving is what I mentioned above. That their energy blasts have momentum, recoil, and kinetic energy. (You do realize that Kinetic energy and momentum are related, right? Momentum is mass x velocity, KE is 1/2 mass x velocity squared, at least for non-relatavistic KE calcs - which have a different equation entirely to account for relatavistic mass.)

As for "countering said force", did you even bother to provide an equation to cnsider the MAGNITUDE? ( I provided evidence about how they might counter the force as well by flight/TK, *but* I also pointed out they were incapable of handling the MAGNITUDE. Part of your burden of proof is proving they demonstrated the required force/momentum to counter the recoil of a planet killing blast, which requires either a stated number or a calculation done. Or, prove they can generate the required mass and acceleration to counter it (something on the increase to a million metric tons of body mass and an acceleration to near-lightspeed in a second to counter, IIRC my calcs.)

While I did not see any actual numbers from the DBZ side, I will humor you and assume you did and I simply missed them, so would you *CARE* to provide those and what they were stated/based on? (assuming you *have* calculations, that is, which I doubt.)

Let's not forget the basics here. You were arguing that a Sith would beat Goku. I don't think it is physically or morally possible for you to take the high road in that exchange.

I do not recall actually ever stating whether or not a sith would win, or even arguing FOR the sith. I simply debated the fallacies being employed in terms of DBZ ability and the inability of the DBZ fans to provide the requisite evidence.

And even IF I was arguing for the Sith, how does that negate my points, exactly? What the fuck does physical or moral possibility have to do with it? Are you accusing me of bias and deliberately misinterpreting evidence or using pseudoscience to deliberately weaken your cause? If so, I would love to see you prove this.

Beyond that, when you yourself are using the Force as an argument, you've got no fucking grounds for making us limit ki to strict rules of physics.

How so? I don't recall claiming that individual Sith can go around tossing planet-killing or planet-shattering blasts (IE magnitude matters). In fact, I DO expect the Force to obey science insomuch as is possible (where it doesn't, it cannot be calculated. TK events and other things like Sith lightning do not count, but mind control techniques would. As I recall I was and have typically avoided any sort of mind control argument.)

Or are you going to start arguing that the Force doesn't obey science in the slightest, violates it completely, and that therefore that means its perfectly alright to ignore science yet still pretend you can analyze it as if it does?

(PS, this actually assumes you can PROVE the Force violates science. The fact you're willing to start tossing science out the window to support your cause proves just how weak your position is. I have never once advocated tossing science out the window, nor did I ever quantify anything Force-related that violated science. Note that your definition of "violating science" may differ from mine, due to what appears to be your greater ignorance of the subject, and your desire to win your argument however you can, no matter how irrational you become. I still believe DBZ CAN be analyzed, I am simply contending that the lot of you do so ineptly and incorrectly.)

Oddly enough, the non-DET event was treated entirely differently than every other planet-destroying attack in the entire series, and they made special point of it not being a non-DET event, and Goku was surprised by it.

It sets a precedent, and it fits the facts without ignoring things or inventing or adding new variables (Occam's Razor applies in terms of simplest theory.)

I like how you assume every event "looked" different, so it must have been. Perfectly inline with the ineptly simplistic "analysis" method employed by DBZers, who typically refuse to look more in depth to make sure their theories actually make sense or fit known facts.

Based on?

Based on the fact they have never demonstrated the requisite magnitude of Force needed to compensate for the recoil of blasts of such magnitude, as well as the lack of effect of such blasts on the enviroment (as mentioned above, which you will no doubt ignore in favor of reiterating your "They destroyed planet" argument. Repetition seems to be the limit of your entire argument.)

Shut the fuck up, hypocrite. "OMG precog! How is precog possible? Who cares. It just is!"

Its amusing to be called a hypocrite by the person who claims that one can ignore science, and yet analyze events as if they still applied.

BTW, I know I've made my point, presented my evidence, and I am already certain you cannot refute my points (partly because unlike you, I did the fucking research - you know, looked at the eps, watched what happened, and knew what the fuck I am talking about better than you could ever hope to.) and since it ISn't relevant to the topic, I will not address it further so it will not go beyond this nor address further responses, so don't waste your time or breath. Concession accepted on the lot of you, asshole.

[KK]

Hey, McLoad. If you want to bring up the DBZ debate again, go bump the DBZ topic. Stop posting it in here.

[Connor MacLeod]

Hey, McLoad. If you want to bring up the DBZ debate again, go bump the DBZ topic. Stop posting it in here.

Why? You can't refute the arguments and the best you can do is the same BS you're doing in this thread. You want to start the argument up, go do some fucking research first and then bump the thread yourself. I had my point proven long ago.

To Mike and the rest: I apologize if this lead to a thread hijack, but stupidity has to be dealt with. I AM stopping after this.

[Darth Wong]

Who the fuck CAN'T dodge Marvelverse laser and gunfire?

Cop-out.

No, it's a point you can't answer.

See Captain America and Daredevil; one need not be superhuman in order to dodge bullets in the Marvelverse.

For one, Cap and Daredevil are both superhuman, so your point is null.

Not in the manner which counts, which is superhuman speed. If they don't need superhuman speed to avoid or block bullets, then the bullets themselves must be slow. Therefore, Marvelverse bullets are slow.

For two, neither Cap nor Daredevil dodge bullets nearly in the same way Spidey does. They dodge one or two at a time by being faster than the gunman's ability to aim.

Which won't work without superhuman speed or precog, neither of which they have, therefore Marvelverse bullets are slow.

Spidey, on the other hand, stands in the middle of a continual stream of machine-gun fire from multiple guns and contorts his body so that none of the individual bullets make contact. He does the same with lasers, as my references show.

Which wouldn't work if the bullets weren't spaced out conveniently. Marvelverse bullets do not prove that Spidey can move any faster than his stated specs, and since you can take him down with a tranq dart trap, I'd say your claims are all proven bullshit.

PS. Kraven's Last Hunt. Say it with me.

Great. You've found one bit of evidence against the hundreds that support me, and you're going to ride it like Tiny Tim's crutch.

You asked for me to provide one example. I did so. Now you're suddenly saying "oh yeah? All you did was answer my demand! Pooh pooh on you!"

You can't dismiss a piece of evidence so easily. In real life, you must generate a theory which explains all of the evidence at once, not the evidence you like while ignoring the evidence which bothers you.

[KK]

Why the fuck do you need numbers so badly?

We have physically witnessed them destroy planets, and we have physically witnessed them able to block and counter the force of the energy attacks.

Why the fuck do you need numbers to validate to you what you saw with your own two eyes?

Why? Fuck, we already know why. Because you're embarrasingly desperate to turn the Z-Senshi into Telletubby level foes so that the Jedi would have a chance in hell against them.

These are characters who are shown fighting near lightspeed, who can destroy a planet as easily as a Jedi can take a piss, who can lift mountains, who can teleport back from the dead, and you want to say the Jedi could beat them since there are no numbers.

Like if we don't have numbers to quantify them, the blatantly obvious power advantage goes away. Right.

And until you start applying strict scientific realism to The Force, you can shut the fuck up about DBZ ki properties.

[Darth Wong]

Since you will persist in evading this point, I will repeat it. Anybody can take out Spidey with a tranquilizer dart trap. This is canon. Boo hoo for you.