Editor rantings and other stupid things Marvel does

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-06-28 10:46am

Ghost Rider wrote: And yeah when Jim Lee left....it sorta drew away some of the big draw of the book, since Marvel made such a big-hub-bub about just that.

I know comics are a visual medium, but if the writings good enough it shouldn't matter who's drawing it as long as they aren't crap. However if the book is a frontrunning title, and the company cares about it, they should ensure that a good artist gets teamed up with a good writer.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-28 10:51am

Rob Wilson wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: And yeah when Jim Lee left....it sorta drew away some of the big draw of the book, since Marvel made such a big-hub-bub about just that.
I know comics are a visual medium, but if the writings good enough it shouldn't matter who's drawing it as long as they aren't crap. However if the book is a frontrunning title, and the company cares about it, they should ensure that a good artist gets teamed up with a good writer.

Pretty much...and sadly Scott Lobdell isn't that good of a writer...he isn't Waid, or Busiek caliber by any means and the draconian levels of editor control that book has...Waid couldn't do much either.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-06-28 11:01am

Ghost Rider wrote: Pretty much...and sadly Scott Lobdell isn't that good of a writer...he isn't Waid, or Busiek caliber by any means and the draconian levels of editor control that book has...Waid couldn't do much either.

Yeah, what is it with Marvel and their need for about 10 editors for every book? How the hell does anything get out there on time?

Speaking of Waid, did you hear about his getting fired from FF?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-28 11:09am

Rob Wilson wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: Pretty much...and sadly Scott Lobdell isn't that good of a writer...he isn't Waid, or Busiek caliber by any means and the draconian levels of editor control that book has...Waid couldn't do much either.
Yeah, what is it with Marvel and their need for about 10 editors for every book? How the hell does anything get out there on time?

Speaking of Waid, did you hear about his getting fired from FF?

Oh yeah...me and bunch of fellow comic geeks also got a good laugh at Joe Q apology letter(which you can see on PAD website and comicon Pulse website)

Basically the letter was Damage control and somewhat failed because Waid said he was fired for two big reasons.

1. He didn't agree with editorial changes
2. Jemas wanted to replace him

Number 2 was proven false...or so it's claimed. It's iffy given that Jemas does believe he is a writer, but as it stands...that one is proven false...but the first one has yet to be proven false and is of the same vein of why Peter David was booted off Hulk(because they wanted a Savage Hulk and PAD said go fuck yourselves)

As for the Editors...because X-men is their baby and they literally feel the need to watch over every nuance of it. Most of the comic community has a joke about Marvel...Don't get your book popular...that way Marvel will never notice(course you'll be cancelled

...but hey you got to write what you wanted to

)

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-06-28 11:15am

Rob Wilson wrote:
Speaking of Waid, did you hear about his getting fired from FF?

I heard some of it. He was supposedly told that they wanted the FF to be done as a sit-com which Marvel started denying imediately.

Funny thing, that's the way I've heard the current idea for the FF movie being described. Plus, Marvel has routinely fiddled with it's comics to try and be more recognizable to people who just discovered the title because of a movie. Why else was there such a push to push the Hulk away from what Peter David was doing and back to the savage Hulk?

Why did Blade all of a sudden pick up the powers and coolness of the movie Blade.

I've seen character discriptions for Ghost Rider that clearly combine the two comic character inorder to get them to match the proposed movie version. So it's not like Marvel doesn't have a history of trying to milk it's movies for all they are worth so to me that seem that Waid's comments have slightly more weight than Marvel's denials.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-06-28 11:54am

Ghost Rider wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote: Yeah, what is it with Marvel and their need for about 10 editors for every book? How the hell does anything get out there on time?

Speaking of Waid, did you hear about his getting fired from FF?
Oh yeah...me and bunch of fellow comic geeks also got a good laugh at Joe Q apology letter(which you can see on PAD website and comicon Pulse website)

Yeah I read it at PAD's and laughed myself to death at it. OK Waid might have miremebered the sort of content they wanted, but Quesada gave zero information on how it would be done. Also why the hell does Jemas wnat to change a book that has had rising sales and growing fan confidence in the writer and direction? Change for change sake is beyond stupid.

Oh and they get in a new writer and make a big thing out of him being Gay... Who cares about his sexual orientation? The fans want to know if he can write well.

Ghost Rider wrote:As for the Editors...because X-men is their baby and they literally feel the need to watch over every nuance of it. Most of the comic community has a joke about Marvel...Don't get your book popular...that way Marvel will never notice(course you'll be cancelled ...but hey you got to write what you wanted to )

That's stupid, and patently false. If their editorial control is so tight how do you explain UNcanny recently? What do the editors do, eat doughnuts and masturbate to pictures of Rogue Naked?
Where's the continuity, the tight storytelling, the proper use of characters?

As far as I can tell, they exist purely as make work, and possibly a job for the boys network. They don't actually do anything else.

PS. you might want to split this off into it's own thread as it's getting a bit off-topic.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-06-28 11:59am

Tsyroc wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:
Speaking of Waid, did you hear about his getting fired from FF?
I heard some of it. He was supposedly told that they wanted the FF to be done as a sit-com which Marvel started denying imediately.

Funny thing, that's the way I've heard the current idea for the FF movie being described. Plus, Marvel has routinely fiddled with it's comics to try and be more recognizable to people who just discovered the title because of a movie. Why else was there such a push to push the Hulk away from what Peter David was doing and back to the savage Hulk?

Why did Blade all of a sudden pick up the powers and coolness of the movie Blade.

I've seen character discriptions for Ghost Rider that clearly combine the two comic character inorder to get them to match the proposed movie version. So it's not like Marvel doesn't have a history of trying to milk it's movies for all they are worth so to me that seem that Waid's comments have slightly more weight than Marvel's denials.

This is mainly to be laid at Jemas's door I think. The guys all for messing with the current to acomadate a possible future.

How successful is the Hulk title in it's current Savage hulk phase? How Successful was Blade even after the Movie? How succesful is the FF right now without his meddling? If he's such a good idea's man, then how come Marville bombed?

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-06-28 01:02pm

Rob Wilson wrote:[
This is mainly to be laid at Jemas's door I think. The guys all for messing with the current to acomadate a possible future.

How successful is the Hulk title in it's current Savage hulk phase? How Successful was Blade even after the Movie? How succesful is the FF right now without his meddling? If he's such a good idea's man, then how come Marville bombed?

I don't know about the Hulk but some of the stuff I've seen in the comics and in the tpbs I've glanced at seems to be actually pretty good. It looks to be moving rather slowly but it wasn't back to the "Hulk Smash" storyline of the 60s & 70s. Not that I don't mind seeing some of those every now and then.

Blade's comic is gone as far as I know. It's possible it might be in the Marvel Knights group and I just don't run across it.

It's interesting that Marville bombed. I'm pretty sure that I've seen two small tpbs for that comic. I guess it just depends on who you are at Marvel more than the actual sales.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-28 01:08pm

Tsyroc wrote: I don't know about the Hulk but some of the stuff I've seen in the comics and in the tpbs I've glanced at seems to be actually pretty good. It looks to be moving rather slowly but it wasn't back to the "Hulk Smash" storyline of the 60s & 70s. Not that I don't mind seeing some of those every now and then.

The funniest part is that Marvel did renege on it.

Both Peter David and Marvel confirmed in their own ways that PAD was fired because they wanted Hulk Smash stories....what's amusing the stories have never gone that route.

Another big thing is that Jemas has cleaned out anyone assoicated with the old editorial staff(ie the Harras years).

This was another underline reason that Bobbie chase was fired after PAD had been canned as well.

It's interesting that Marville bombed. I'm pretty sure that I've seen two small tpbs for that comic. I guess it just depends on who you are at Marvel more than the actual sales.

Oh and Marville....guess who writes it

Bill Jemas....it's a load and the industry laughed hard at it. But he gets TPB...while others get overlooked.

Course just to give an idea they made a Nick Fury:Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D TPB...but never gave Sternako any royalites from it.

Seriously Marvel at times makes some serious flaws rather public.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-06-28 01:14pm

Tsyroc wrote:
It's interesting that Marville bombed. I'm pretty sure that I've seen two small tpbs for that comic. I guess it just depends on who you are at Marvel more than the actual sales.

welcome to the world of Bill Jemas.

as to Hulk, once the current writer steered away from the Savage hulk nonsense, it improved as did sales... guess what? They Now want the Savage hulk back to gel with what's shown on screen. What this means for sales is anyones gues. If the guys smart he'll make it a temporary thing and slowly guide the new readers back to where he's at right now.

The Blade comic is the best example i can think of, the Movie did amazing business, so Marvel made the Comic blade more like the Movie Blade... and forgot to promote it to the Movie going public! The then current fan of the book hated the changes and a lot left, not enough new fans got onboard and it limped to it's eventual death.

Jemas has the mistaken Idea, that he's an idea's man... he's not, he is there purely to run the business of Marvel, the Idea's are the job of the writers and the editors. Right now he's done a good job of getting profits into marvel by cutting overheads, increasing media awareness, and optioning movies while the market is keen. However everytime he tries to get involved in an idea of how things should be run, he fucks it. He has the same sensibilities as Hollywood "never mind the quality, Feel the trendiness!". Whatevers th current fad, he'll shoehorn it into a title whether it'll fit with that titles milleau or not.

Good business man, terrible Editor!

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-28 01:16pm

Sadly Bill Jemas isn't even editor

He's the president of Marvel...which makes one wonder.

Does he want Joe Quesada's job?

Because most of Joe Q's descions have been completely in line with his.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-06-28 01:23pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Sadly Bill Jemas isn't even editor

He's the president of Marvel...which makes one wonder.[/quoe]

I know, it's just he thnks he is the EiC, and it hurts ay book he gets involved with.

Ghost Rider wrote:Does he want Joe Quesada's job?

Because most of Joe Q's decisions have been completely in line with his.

He doesn't need JOe Q's job, he has him so whipped it's like Dubya and Blair. One farts the other one bottles it and sells it as perfume.

Which is really annoying as Quesada has some bang up idea's of his own, and really showed his abilities during his first year or so as EiC... but he always rolls over and begs the minute, no matter what nonsense Jemas puts forward.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-28 01:25pm

Yeah no kidding...great analogy and so sadly true.

Sorry his letter was asskissing Jemas you could hear the lips pucker.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-06-28 01:27pm

I think I should make it clear, I have nothing against Jemas as a Business man. He's more thanshown he's capable in that regard.
Likewise Joe Quesada, proved himself a very capable EiC. But when Jemas interfere's in the Comics, and Quesada lets him... that's when things go tit's up. And that's what I object to.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-28 01:34pm

Oh no I completely agree.

Literally Jemas has shown some superb work in his field...so has Quesada.

The very thing that pisses me of is the same as yours, and includes when Jemas spouts off sometimes.

Literally in one Wizard interview...he called some readers as horny fanboys. His quote was "Of course they're scantily clad...this what the fanboys read, don't they?"

While yes some are....this is NOT what you say to a publication...especially one that caters to them.

When he does business it's good, when Qusada doesn't let him get into some sychopant phase, it's good. It's just in the recent year...they've done what they shouldn't have and it's not getting better in somre regards(that and Jemas has some hard-on against Peter David that makes less and less sense as time goes on)

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-06-28 01:41pm

Ghost Rider wrote:they've done what they shouldn't have and it's not getting better in somre regards(that and Jemas has some hard-on against Peter David that makes less and less sense as time goes on)

Yeah, Chuck mentioned that last year (which got me reading Captain Marvel), as apparently Jemas had basically said he knew what the fans wanted for the title better than PAD did, so he challenged him to a competition. PAD continues his version of CM, whilst Jemas put out a rival one, and which ever did best got to continue.
Well PAD's CM is difficult to get over here, but I've never seen Jemas's at all.

What the hell was the man thinking?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-28 01:53pm

Rob Wilson wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:they've done what they shouldn't have and it's not getting better in somre regards(that and Jemas has some hard-on against Peter David that makes less and less sense as time goes on)
Yeah, Chuck mentioned that last year (which got me reading Captain Marvel), as apparently Jemas had basically said he knew what the fans wanted for the title better than PAD did, so he challenged him to a competition. PAD continues his version of CM, whilst Jemas put out a rival one, and which ever did best got to continue.
Well PAD's CM is difficult to get over here, but I've never seen Jemas's at all.

What the hell was the man thinking?

Who knows...mostly because in Megacon...Mark Alessi(Crossgen Pres) said there's a difference between him and Jemas.

Alessi: I know I can't write...Jemas needs sagging sales for someone to tell him.

PAD is not without flaw here because he didn't want the book's Price of CM to be raised because the raised price would decrease readership across the board. An honest and fair thought.

The main reason he's not all innocent is he made a few editorials in CBG that were public and rather venomous(I understand the public part, but calling your Editor a numbskull who doesn't know a damn thing isn't a good way to go).

Thus Joe Q/Jemas made the U-Decide challenge.

Then well Jemas began his rants against Peter David. Heck most fans presumed it was all a hoax because how bad the other two titles were.

Not only that but he does make a couple stabs against the PAD.

In Marville#2...literally Peter David approachs KaOL(try not to have the brian explode here) and asks for money because he lost the writing competition.

Then he in his rules for writing "good" Comics also didn't have the statement of "What if the Hulk was intelligent...bzzt...no, no one wants read stories like that(though I wonder if Bruce Jones isn't just a tad pissed with that statement as well)

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-28 03:46pm

This has some odd correlation but by far the funniest.

The Post on his site reads as is:

Friday, June 27, 2003

THE HULK ENCYCLOPEDIA
I picked up a copy of the Marvel Encyclopedia: The Incredible Hulk, which is the OFFICIAL (emphasis theirs) Marvel Guide to the Incredible Hulk that gives us "the people behind the Hulk, from Stan Lee and Jack Kirby to the writers and artists who have shaped the character throughout the years, this is the story of the creators behind the myth."

Out of curiosity, I checked the index. I offer the following statistics without comment.

Number of pages Stan Lee is mentioned on: 24.
Jack Kirby: 14
Ang Lee: 11
Bruce Jones: 9
Dale Keown: 8
Herb Trimpe: 6
Axel Alonso: 5
Bill Jemas: 3
John Byrne: 2
Todd McFarlane: 1
Peter David: 1
Roy Thomas: 0
Sal Buscema: 0
Al Milgrom: 0
Bill Mantlo: 0
Len Wein: 0
Bob Harras: 0
Bobbie Chase: 0

PAD

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-06-28 03:59pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote: Yeah, Chuck mentioned that last year (which got me reading Captain Marvel), as apparently Jemas had basically said he knew what the fans wanted for the title better than PAD did, so he challenged him to a competition. PAD continues his version of CM, whilst Jemas put out a rival one, and which ever did best got to continue.
Well PAD's CM is difficult to get over here, but I've never seen Jemas's at all.

What the hell was the man thinking?
Who knows...mostly because in Megacon...Mark Alessi(Crossgen Pres) said there's a difference between him and Jemas.

Alessi: I know I can't write...Jemas needs sagging sales for someone to tell him.

PAD is not without flaw here because he didn't want the book's Price of CM to be raised because the raised price would decrease readership across the board. An honest and fair thought.

The main reason he's not all innocent is he made a few editorials in CBG that were public and rather venomous(I understand the public part, but calling your Editor a numbskull who doesn't know a damn thing isn't a good way to go).

That sort of thing should really be kept private. Vendetta's shouldn't be made public like that. On a Web-board where the other guy can respond, then yeah, but in an article in Comic Buyers Guide that the other guy can't say jack about... no.

Ghost Rider wrote:Thus Joe Q/Jemas made the U-Decide challenge.

Then well Jemas began his rants against Peter David. Heck most fans presumed it was all a hoax because how bad the other two titles were.

Two titles, I know that Jemas's had one called Captain Mar-vell, but what other one was put up against CM?

Ghost Rider wrote:Not only that but he does make a couple stabs against the PAD.

In Marville#2...literally Peter David approachs KaOL(try not to have the brian explode here) and asks for money because he lost the writing competition.

Pride goeth before a fall. Jemas took on someone who writes for a living and thought he'd win?? Sad.

Ghost Rider wrote:Then he in his rules for writing "good" Comics also didn't have the statement of "What if the Hulk was intelligent...bzzt...no, no one wants read stories like that(though I wonder if Bruce Jones isn't just a tad pissed with that statement as well)

Jemas wrote some rules on Writing Good Comics!!

What the fuck! He's got balls I'll give him that.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-28 04:04pm

The Titles were: Ultimate Adventures(which was a bad spoof of Batman and Robin) written by Ron Zimmerman

Marville written by Bill Jemas.

And as for his rules...me and friend downloaded them to see what they were...laughed very hard, and where trying to see how many logical fallacies he's made.

To put it this way he contradicts himself virtually every rule...except the ninth wherein he states...just keep trying.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-06-28 04:08pm

Ghost Rider wrote: Ang Lee: 11
Herb Trimpe: 6
Bill Jemas: 3
Peter David: 1
Sal Buscema: 0
Al Milgrom: 0
Len Wein: 0
Bob Harras: 0
Bobbie Chase: 0

I know they're pushing the Film... but what the Fuck? Ang Lee gets more metions than PAD, No mention for Milgrom, Wien or Buscema. AAnd the Editor and EiC during the titles most successful runs get no mention either

.

SFX did a spread on the past of Hulk, as part of the Prep for the film and they managed to fill 2 pages with just the stuff that happened in PAD's run alone.
Next to Stan Lee, he's arguably had the largest influence on the Hulk mythos of any other writer, and yet he gets mentioned once.

If I remember correctly Bobbie pushed for PAD to take on the Hulk during his return to the grey days when sales were in the toilet and between them and Bob Harras they turned the whole thing around in the space of 6-8 issues. by a years worth it had a steadily growing fanbase and more involved storylines.

Bloody revisionist history writers.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-06-28 04:16pm

Ghost Rider wrote:The Titles were: Ultimate Adventures(which was a bad spoof of Batman and Robin) written by Ron Zimmerman

Marville written by Bill Jemas.

Never heard of Ultimate Adventures. And of course Marville bombed, big style. Neither was available over here so yay. Haven't a clue why i typed Captain Mar-vell up there, he was the predecessor to the current CM (Genis-Vell). All these Marvels running around in my head, no suprise I typed the wrong thing somewhere.

Ghost Rider wrote:And as for his rules...me and friend downloaded them to see what they were...laughed very hard, and where trying to see how many logical fallacies he's made.

To put it this way he contradicts himself virtually every rule...except the ninth wherein he states...just keep trying.

This sounds like Dorkster putting up rules for good Debating.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-06-28 04:19pm

Rob Wilson wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: Ang Lee: 11
Herb Trimpe: 6
Bill Jemas: 3
Peter David: 1
Sal Buscema: 0
Al Milgrom: 0
Len Wein: 0
Bob Harras: 0
Bobbie Chase: 0
I know they're pushing the Film... but what the Fuck? Ang Lee gets more metions than PAD, No mention for Milgrom, Wien or Buscema. AAnd the Editor and EiC during the titles most successful runs get no mention either .

SFX did a spread on the past of Hulk, as part of the Prep for the film and they managed to fill 2 pages with just the stuff that happened in PAD's run alone.
Next to Stan Lee, he's arguably had the largest influence on the Hulk mythos of any other writer, and yet he gets mentioned once.

If I remember correctly Bobbie pushed for PAD to take on the Hulk during his return to the grey days when sales were in the toilet and between them and Bob Harras they turned the whole thing around in the space of 6-8 issues. by a years worth it had a steadily growing fanbase and more involved storylines.

Bloody revisionist history writers.

Yep...their OFFICAL product does this.

But find either the CBG or Tom DeFalco's history of the Hulk and comics and you see that PAD, Buscema, Wein and others are mentioned constantly.

I just had to put it here because it made me laugh how much of who gets mentioned.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-06-28 06:07pm

Rob Wilson wrote:
I know they're pushing the Film... but what the Fuck? Ang Lee gets more metions than PAD, No mention for Milgrom, Wien or Buscema. AAnd the Editor and EiC during the titles most successful runs get no mention either .

That was pretty much my experience with Vol. 1 of the Marvel Encyclopedia. It specifically included characters that they either had movies for or were trying very hard to have movies for. In some cases the characters and their historys were changed to better reflect the movies.

I've looked through the Hulk book by DeFalco and it seemed pretty decent. He cramed a decent amout of stuff in there for the amount of pages.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-06-28 06:17pm

Tsyroc wrote: I've looked through the Hulk book by DeFalco and it seemed pretty decent. He cramed a decent amout of stuff in there for the amount of pages.

Yeah, I've been thinking of getting the essential Hulk and X-men books when i get back. Just to add to my collections.