Defeating a Death Star

[Darth Mall]

Executor or Eclipse is 11 times a ISD's length, if we multiply all dimensions by 11(the lazy method), it comes out to have 1331x the volume. 3 Isd's crashed into an Executor's shields and exploded without doing any damage to the hull. The DS has a minimum of 10000x the Executor's shielding. Try again please. Not to mention the fact that the surface turbolasers would be able to destroy the ship on approach, and the tractor beams should be able to slow down the debris.

In that case please explain why the hell the executor hit the DSII in ROTJ? I saw no turbolasers hitting that
fine then first get rid of the shields w/ lots and lots o torpedo spheres. when shields are down or weakened do that tactic also u can get a rebel commando team into the DSII and shut down the tractor beams just like obi-wan did

[consequences]

The emperor was a jackass, and was relying upon the protection of the shield generated on the surface. For this scenario, the DS2 is to be fully functional, with its own bloody shield generators.
Your basic premise is also not bad, just not quite sufficient. Personally, I'd load a bunch of really huge freighters with high density junk, and cheerfully have them autopilot into the DS at top speed.

[Darth Mall]

The emperor was a jackass, and was relying upon the protection of the shield generated on the surface. For this scenario, the DS2 is to be fully functional, with its own bloody shield generators.
Your basic premise is also not bad, just not quite sufficient. Personally, I'd load a bunch of really huge freighters with high density junk, and cheerfully have them autopilot into the DS at top speed.

Like i said first knock out the shields and what your saying is the same fucking thing im saying but with a bunch of freighters. then fill the eclipse with chunks of asteroids, and since there will be no need for crew or life support that leaves alot of empty space and also with no super weapons u can take out the super laser and that makes even more room.

what they hell fill the nose of the thing with baribium and made the thing a giant thermal detonator missile if that didn't kill the DSII it would take a huge ass chunk out of it

[consequences]

Don't use an Eclipse that way, it's inefficient. What you want to do is keep the Eclipse at extreme range, on the back side of the DS, with the Superlaser fully charged, and fire it either just before the Eclipse's shield goes down, as soon as you can no longer avoid the DS superlaser firing arc, or as soon as it will either provide the push needed for a shield overload, or if your lucky, hit bare hull. This way, it encourages the DS commander to concentrate fire on the Eclipse in an effort to destroy it before it delivers its main punch, and to not fire his superlaser at your other ships until he disposes of the threat. There's lots of freighters out there to sacrifice, but Eclipses are expensive. Have it ram only as a last resort.

[Howedar]

and that the DS2 shield will be, at a minimum, protected by shields of that magnitude

We don't know that.

[consequences]

Yes, actually we do, considering they could produce shields 10000x stronger than that by the simple expedient of not charging the Superlaser. Given that the cross section of DS2 that would be hit by exploding planet is 25x greater than that of DS1, its shielding has to be at least 2.5e33 to execute the same function and have the same capability of the first one.

[FOG3]

Very simply, the DS superlaser is so blatantly overpowered for killing a planet it isn't even funny. a millionth of the power used would be sufficient to destroy any unshielded planet, if not as dramatically of course. Searing continents means jack squat when you are talking about the energy to overcome the gravitational attraction of a planet. Bottom line, is that the writers at WEG, and the guide to vehicles and vessels screwed up. The DS was designed to take the high-speed explosion of a planet at point blank range without suffering impairment. The Sovereign and/or Eclipse do not produce nearly enough energy to overcome the DS's capacity.
Your idea isn't bad, just insufficient. The DS1 was able to contribute somewhere between 1e32-1e33 joules of energy every second to charge up the superlaser, in addition to all of the station's normal requirements(shields, jamming, hyperspace travel, multithousand g accelerations). Given that the DS2 has an internal volume at least a hundred times greater than the DS1, its entirely possible that its combined reactors might take up more space than a Sovereign would in its hull.
Bottom line, don't automatically trust WEG, or figures derived from their work.

You certainly are making good points but my plan did take some of this into account in addition planning for the eventuality of Murphy's Law. Note it said shatters Planetary shield then vaporize continent not just vaporize continent though. However the Sovereigns are meant to all hit one point on the shield to create a hole in the shields for the Eclipse's Superlaser. That much firepower concentrated in a small area should create a hole and the Eclipse should then be able to cripple the DS. Followed by a bombardment to finish off the station. {Sorry this is rushed.}

[consequences]

Unfortunately the DS commander is very likely to notice 9-17 Superlaser equipped battleships in formation, and reinforce shielding on their side. Remember it is possible to detect ships in hyperspace, so surprise is not guaranteed. Your diverson fleet is unlikely to have any targets that will draw the DS's Superlaser, and the beam is capable of firing off axis.
If I was the DS commander, I'd actively attempt to engage near an uninhabited world, to decrease the area of my ship vulnerable to hyperspace rams and such, and to provide the galaxy's largest proximity warhead if I deem it necessary to explode a planet to clear the area of minor nuisances.

[lance]

This is what I would do go to kaut have them make a huge hollow sphere the size of the DS2, with a good set of engines, some sheilds and fill it up with explosives, after this hits a dozen sector fleets come out of hyperspace and start blasting, first targeting the turbolasers on the DS to make a blind spot. Then the super laser,
I would also have every other ship I have available hunting down places in which a DS can get refuelsed and stocked up. That way if this plan doesn't work the DS will run out of fuel eventually.

If I can't use a huge bomb, then my other plan is to lure it to coruscont and have a dozen sovereins standing by prepared to fire. So DS comes out the soverinsfire on the superlaser, hopefully disabling it. I would try to make it look like they are targetting a different part of the station, with extrimely good holograms. I have as many VSDs under courascants sheilds as I can fit that don't interfere with the big guns on the ground.
Now if I am un able to disable the super laser my back up plan would be to try sucking the super laser beam into a black hole with a vong ship.
There is also a huge mine field out there, and every civie ship has been comandered for a suicide run at the super laser.

If I am able to disable the super laser then corruscant's planetary defenses shoots it out with the DS while the big ships fire. 12 torpedo spheres and 5000 600-1600m ships will drop out of hyperspace. All the guns will hit a 4 square km area. Then as they try reinforcing it I have them hit a completly different area. That they hope fully drained power from other areas to reinforce the weakened area.

Before this happens I will completlty upgrade Coruscants power production, even if I have to "relocate" a few trillion inhabatants so I can turn there homes into powerplants and sheild generators.

[Gandalf]

Bah, screw the multitudes of ships, all I need is MacGuyver and a small blaster.

Though, all I could think of is some sort of dumb trick to lure it into the Maw or something, to fuck up it's capabilities.

[consequences]

DS commander laughs, and fires extreme ranged low powered superlaser blasts at Coruscant's moons, destroying them, and forcing your fleet to either expend all its efforts stopping debris, watch the Coruscant population starve under the shield, or accept horrific civilian casualties on the surface every time you drop the shield to let supplies through.

My fleet for this operation:

At least ten thousand Interdictors
Every freighter I can beg borrow or steal, loaded with rocks(will not launch operation without a minimum of 50-100 thousand)
Approx ten thousand TF battleships, with all troop carrying ability converted to fighter storage(bare minimum of 50k fighters per ship, probably lots more)
Somewhere in the vicinity of a million-plus automated light capital ships
30-40K Imperator sized vessels, converted for heavy space combat
5-10K heavier capital ships
at least 100 huge freaking Superlaser equipped vessels
As many planetary shield generators as I can dredge up, carried by big empty ships, for fleet protection
Several Complete Orbital nightcloak systems, dispersed thoughout as many of the lighter vessels as needed.
Additional ships in numbers to match or exceed any escorting fleet.
Fleet comes out of hyperspace, Interdictors lock DS in n-space at extreme range. Six light warships and 1000 droid fighters escort each Interdictor.
Sacrificial wave of 70000 light ships leaps in to engage the DS at close range, to buy time for the Orbital nightcloak to be put into operation. 70000 ships are promptly slaughtered, but probably succeed in their mission.
Main fleet begins continuous bombardment of DS though cloak, while engaging in constant evasive manuevers, while heavy elements move into position. Losses start to mount on the cloaking force, as the DS puts out insane amounts of firepower in an effort to remove the impediment.
Fleet concentrates fire on localised area, while entire freighter force kamikazes into another. One second after that, entire superlaser contingent fires on single location, away from the two hit areas, but on the same hemisphere. Hopefully, this will break through the defenses, but the potential exists for the DS commander to have said "Screw the ground element, take all of those useless bastards out and give me more shield generators".
Briefly drop the cloak. If shields have been breached, concentrate fire on uncovered areas, while sending in ludicrous fighter swarms to peck away at gun emplacements. Main fleet is concentrated under the umbrella of the planetary shield generators. If shield was not breached, cut losses and leave, assemble even larger fleet to try again later.
Presuming operation continues, simply continue sending fighter waves at the DS while maintaining bombardment. Liberal use of suicide warships to exploit gaps in defenses will occur.
Note, if this strategy succeeds, even at the cost of my entire fleet, I will still have lost only 0.02% of the hull volume devoted to construction of the DS2.
In all likelihood, I am still underestimating the ships needed by at least one order of magnitude.

[FOG3]

Perhaps I wasn’t clear, calling Fleet A a diversion is not that accurate, they’re not there to just look pretty. They’re there to grab the Death Star’s commander by the nose. We’re talking hundreds of VSDs and a considerable number of Dreadnoughts with their escort showing up and bombarding the DS. That is some serious firepower. Fleet B is going to drop in ready to fire after Fleet A has been engaged for a while. Long enough that the DS commander would have quite likely reinforced the shields against Fleet A. Sure their sensors might be able to pick them up, if their own jamming doesn’t prevent them from doing so, but they aren’t going to have that much time to do anything about it. We’re coming in with the guns already charged up and ready to go. Fleet B’s initial bombardment is a precision operation, which does leave it more open to a failure messing up the entire thing. However fate favors the bold.

Shields especially if they are dealing with other things on the opposite side of the ship are known to have localized failures from hits that are considerably less then what the entire grid can handle. Even if the DS commander somehow has sufficient warning, he knew where we were going to hit the shield, and he can reinforce the shield in that area heavily enough to block Fleet B’s assault think where the power isn’t going. It would not be going to protecting against Fleet A’s bombardment, which could very well break through the weakened shields. The power might be there but it doesn’t mean it can be harnessed to that degree in one area. If the X-wing series of books are taken seriously Rogue squadron has shown this many times. It might not have the energy to take the entire shield down but that isn’t the goal, it should however have the intensity to overload a section and create a hole, albeit temporary but that’s what precision targeting and slave circuits are for. This should allow the Eclipse’s superlaser to hit hull and take out a sizeable area of the landscape, hopefully causing problems with the power distribution systems but I’m not counting on it. This would wipe out a serious chunk of the shield emitters and guns on the DS’s surface leaving a big gap in the shields into which fighter swarms can be sent before the DS’s technicians use the remaining deflection towers to close the hole. The fighters job will be to destroy the deflection towers (shield emitters), as many anti-ship guns as they can, and damage the DS superlaser if they can get around to it. Of course given Imperial engineering follows the principle of redundancy they’d probably need to damage each of the emitters to render the threat of the superlaser impotent. The havoc the fighter will cause in addition to the heavy bombardment from both fleets should bring the entire shield grid down pretty quickly. Then it’s just a matter of beating on it until it decides to die. I think this plan is seriously over estimating the DS.

[Eleas]

I can easily do this without a superweapon, given a bit of luck, resources and advance warning.

It's very simple. I smuggle in Magwit's Hoop in its powered down state; possibly as part of the hull of some resupply frigate. Then, I combine that lovely thing with the bomb used in Rogue Planet.

Small problem, of course, is that I have no idea of how big said bomb was, but it was a planetkiller. I got the impression, though, that it was small enough to carry, strangely enough.

[Crayz9000]

I was under the impression that the bomb in question wasn't a regular planetkiller, but instead would cook off the deposits of that strange gas/mineral on the planet, thus making the planet crack apart.

[Eleas]

I was under the impression that the bomb in question wasn't a regular planetkiller, but instead would cook off the deposits of that strange gas/mineral on the planet, thus making the planet crack apart.

Ah, allright. I would then try to get through a decent stream of something exceedingly volatile (I wonder if hypermatter would do the trick) and hope the teleportation effect wasn't disrupted by its prescence.

[Howedar]

Yes, actually we do, considering they could produce shields 10000x stronger than that by the simple expedient of not charging the Superlaser. Given that the cross section of DS2 that would be hit by exploding planet is 25x greater than that of DS1, its shielding has to be at least 2.5e33 to execute the same function and have the same capability of the first one.

You assume that shielding is infinitely scalable, and assume that it can be concentrated as much as it would be for the DS1 to have planetary shields. You also assume that the Empire would stick the strongest possible shields on the Death Star, when it really has no reason to.

[Sea Skimmer]

You assume that shielding is infinitely scalable, and assume that it can be concentrated as much as it would be for the DS1 to have planetary shields. You also assume that the Empire would stick the strongest possible shields on the Death Star, when it really has no reason to.

Really for its own security the Empire wouldn't want the Death Star to be invincible, least someone use it to overthrow the Emperor. So weaker then possibul shields would make sense.

[consequences]

Bottom line Howedar, 2.5E33 shields are the lowest reasonable figure. They are also more than sufficient to defend against anything short of 'half of the Starfleet' or another DS.


I think a lot of you are missing the scale of this. Emperor builds really big battlestation. Emperor has 5 billion ISDs worth of hull and power built into the thing. Do you really think Emperor is going to leave the thing vulnerable to a few thousand ships? If so, why? If the DS commander somehow goes insane, and the entire crew of the station decides to support him, crash building on the part of the empire with no regard to the damage the galactic economy would suffer should produce enough to kill the thing in afew months at most. Hell, the fleet of transports that took the ocean off of a planet's surface might be enough properly utilised.

[Howedar]

Bottom line Howedar, 2.5E33 shields are the lowest reasonable figure. They are also more than sufficient to defend against anything short of 'half of the Starfleet' or another DS.

The lowest reasonable figure is the lowest number that allows the DS1 to survive the Alderaan blast unscathed.

I think a lot of you are missing the scale of this. Emperor builds really big battlestation. Emperor has 5 billion ISDs worth of hull and power built into the thing. Do you really think Emperor is going to leave the thing vulnerable to a few thousand ships?

Yes.

If so, why?

To prevent his being overthrown.

If the DS commander somehow goes insane, and the entire crew of the station decides to support him, crash building on the part of the empire with no regard to the damage the galactic economy would suffer should produce enough to kill the thing in afew months at most.

HAHA! Do you have any clue the magnitude of devastation a complete DS2 could create in "afew months"?

[consequences]

2.5e33 is the minimum figure required for the DS2 to survive the Alderaan detonation, remember, the area of DS2 to be hit is at least 25x greater, and 1e32 has been previously calcuated for the DS1.

Do you have any idea how little it would matter with over a million important targets to choose from? Or how easily it could be contained in a single system with interdictors at extreme range until the armada could be built? total casualties on major planets, presuming zero travel time, and an 8 minute fire rate that can be infinitely sustained, is 5400 planets. Realistic figures would be a tenth of that. In the most unrealistic scenario, the empire still loses less than one percent of its major resources.
Do you have any idea how unlikely it would be for the 100million+ crewmembers of the DS2 to support the commanders power grab? Do you have any conception of how pathetic it would look to have your awe inspiring death machine destroyed by an inconsequential force? Especially when you could park a 100 ISDs over every planet you own for the same effort?

In all likelihood, the Emperor probably had a kill-code hardwired into the computer, and set up means for it to be initiated on his command.

[Howedar]

2.5e33 is the minimum figure required for the DS2 to survive the Alderaan detonation, remember, the area of DS2 to be hit is at least 25x greater, and 1e32 has been previously calcuated for the DS1.

Okay.

Do you have any idea how little it would matter with over a million important targets to choose from?

Hold the gun over Coruscant. Or Kuat. That's a damn serious threat.

Or how easily it could be contained in a single system with interdictors at extreme range until the armada could be built? total casualties on major planets, presuming zero travel time, and an 8 minute fire rate that can be infinitely sustained, is 5400 planets. Realistic figures would be a tenth of that. In the most unrealistic scenario, the empire still loses less than one percent of its major resources.

And the Emperor is only one one.

Do you have any idea how unlikely it would be for the 100million+ crewmembers of the DS2 to support the commanders power grab?

If it were massively shielded, I think they would support him.

Do you have any conception of how pathetic it would look to have your awe inspiring death machine destroyed by an inconsequential force?

Inconsequential? A few thousand ship is not inconsequential. Such a force could only be mustered by the Imperial Navy itself.

In all likelihood, the Emperor probably had a kill-code hardwired into the computer, and set up means for it to be initiated on his command.

Seems unlikely. I don't know how it would get through the shielding.

[consequences]

Actually, Black Sun or the Corporate Sector should also be able to muster that strength if they so choose, the Trade Federation certainly was able to.

You still have to get to Coruscant or Kuat. Interdictors at max range, with heavy fighter coverage, and the DS is going nowhere. There's also the fact that the Emperor gets to reincarnate on Byss if he wants too, and you have no idea where that is as the DS commander. Then, one day five years later when you don't move around enough, a Galaxy gun missile comes out of nowhere. Boom.

And if you take the non-,minimal fleet strengths, the Empire can still muster the numbers I believe are needed.

A far more likely scenario, presuming that the Emperor wasn't smart enough to put bombs in the head of the entire command staff, with sleeper agents on board ready to send the signal through the PA system, is that the commander and his supporters engage in a massive civil war, with the losing faction killing the DS as an act of spite. To give you an idea of how silly the idea is, though, when was the last time you heard of a Ballistic Missile submarine mutinying like that? There are all sorts of checks in place against that sort of thing, because leaving your best weapon underprotected only hurts you in the long run.

[Howedar]

Actually, Black Sun or the Corporate Sector should also be able to muster that strength if they so choose, the Trade Federation certainly was able to.

They could muster the numbers, but they couldn't muster the firepower. The TF's ships, for instance, would be worthless in actual capital ship combat.

You still have to get to Coruscant or Kuat. Interdictors at max range, with heavy fighter coverage, and the DS is going nowhere.

Jump into the edge of the system, then fire at max range. We know that these weapons have that kind of range from the EU. I very much doubt there's enough interdictors at hand to cover an entire system. Thats an incredible volume.

There's also the fact that the Emperor gets to reincarnate on Byss if he wants too, and you have no idea where that is as the DS commander.

You don't? You know its a place where there's a fuckload of ships. That helps narrow it down.

Then, one day five years later when you don't move around enough, a Galaxy gun missile comes out of nowhere. Boom.

So move around, dumbass!

And if you take the non-,minimal fleet strengths, the Empire can still muster the numbers I believe are needed.

So in other words, if you make up the numbers you want, you can destroy the DS.

A far more likely scenario, presuming that the Emperor wasn't smart enough to put bombs in the head of the entire command staff, with sleeper agents on board ready to send the signal through the PA system, is that the commander and his supporters engage in a massive civil war, with the losing faction killing the DS as an act of spite.

Also not a bad idea. Still, a DS is too powerful a weapon to let go unchecked.

To give you an idea of how silly the idea is, though, when was the last time you heard of a Ballistic Missile submarine mutinying like that?

They'd have no reason to. You can't control the world with a single SSBN.

There are all sorts of checks in place against that sort of thing, because leaving your best weapon underprotected only hurts you in the long run.

Most of them are due to the simple nature of a boomer. The Death Star does not have the same problems.

[consequences]

Actually, tens of thousands of 2km ships with reasonable shielding smashing into the DS should provide results, then the hundreds of thousands of droid fighters can strafe the snot out of what's left.

I'm talking about intercepting the DS before it gets anywhere near an important target, and holding it. We know they can detect ships in hyperspace, a 8-900 km blip isn't going to go unnoticed.

Considering that could describe thousands of systems, and that the NR never found a hint of Byss's existence, good luck.

Problem is that no one really knew anything about the GG until the Rebel base planet got taken out. I certainly wouldn't leave any information like that in the files of the DS.

I'm not making up the numbers, I'm drawing upon actual analysis of information, and not assuming that WEG is the alpha and omega of fleet calculations. Remember that by the 'half the firepower of the starfleet' quote, the first DS was equal to about 200 million ISDs. By comparison, I was going by the relatively low-end(if infamous) O'Leary calculations. Total firepower available from those is maybe 2% of that derived from the quote. This also disregards4-5 ears of additional fleet build-up.

Which is why you put bombs in their heads, Force-bind them to your will, fill the thing with hundreds of thousands of your most loyal troops, and have one of your 'Hands' spend a year or more getting cozy with the commander you pick out.

And you can't control the SW galaxy with the DS2. All you can do is threaten to destroy large portions of it.

[Solauren]

Yup. You can take down a Death Star, even Death Star 2 with conventianal (non super-weapon) tactics.

Here is what I need to do it

All 6 Torpedoe Spheres armed with Advanced Concussion Missiles with Seismic Charge warheads.
1 Squadron of Missile Boats with Seismic Charge warheads (say 20 per missile boat)
5000 disposable freighters loaded with high powered munitions
100 Star Destroyers, with 72 Tie Defenders each

Step 1: Missile boats fly in, bypass shields, and start dodging anti-starfighter lasers. They launch all there Seismic Charges, set to explode over the Death Stars surface and level Turbolaser emplacements. If all hit, that's 240 Seismic Charges going off to level Turbolasers. Do this on the opposite of the sphere to the Death Star Superlaser.
If simulations say I need more fighters, then use as many drone fighters as aI need dropping Seismic Charges to level lots of weapon emplacements.
At the same time, more fighters will be tossing Seismic Charges into hanger bays to disable Death Star's fighters. Either that, or there's gonna be alot of dog-fighting.

Step 2: Torpedoe Spheres drop out of orbit. Reconfigured to not need programming. Just start firing on the dam with with sesimic charges set to blow up with the shock wave hitting the Death Star. Each torpedoe sphere will fire 50 Seismic Charges at a time mounted on Advanced Concussion Missiles (fast and maneverable) possibly with the diamond bore tipes mentioned in Shadows of the Empire. If it's possible to make the Seismic Charges uni-directional (all that power in a blast aimed at the shields and hull only....), do it.

Step 3: Lots of fighter waves tossing warheads upon warheads into area that has been and is undergoing Seismic Charging.

Eventually, all those Seismic Charges should take there toll on even the Death Stars shields and start chewing into the hull.

Step 4: Star Destroyers start ramming the Death Star's hull with the hyperdrive set to explode at full power on impact.

Eventually, you'll hit something vital, or just reach the main reactor and watch the Death Star go bye-bye.