Actually, I usually try to keep points that are meant to be seen as a whole together. So I leave empty spaces between paragraphs if I start a new point. But I dont leave an empty line if it is part of the same point. I can of course leave empty spaces between every paragraph - no problem.Darth Wong wrote:Turtle, do you have some problem with putting a blank line between paragraphs?
Did I say that he could survive a force choke at this point? No I didn't.None of which indicate that he would survive a TK force-choke.
I like the way you ignored the words "a few examples" and "The main one"I like the way you act as if this is the only example, ignoring other feats such as partially levitating the X-Wing despite his marginal training, bringing down an AT-AT in Dark Empire, etc.Countering this, Darth Wong has provided a few examples: The main one : a group of Jedi combining their powers, and through sacrificing one of their own, tossing around several Star Destroyers.
This is the reason why I dont always leave spaces between paragraphs. As this was part of a point that I was trying to make. But you insist to take every sentence alone and not a whole pont. Pretty much what you accused Darkstar of doing, isnt it?Logical fallacy: if they did not use their TK in a particular manner, then they must not have it. That is a stupid interpretation since we saw a half-assed Jedi trainee lift a multi-ton X-wing partially out of a swamp (much more difficult than levitating it in air, I might add) in TESB, so any interpretation calling for them to LACK multi-ton TK is instantly denied in canon.So lets look at a period of time where the Jedi were not weakened substanitally (if at all): Episode 1.
We see 2 Jedi destroy quite a few droids. However, they fled from 2 destroyers, eventhough they could have easily destroyed them (if we are going by the strength of Jedi that Darth Wong is ascribing to Jedi) - after all, they can toss Star Destroyers around, so they won't have any problems tossing 2 Destroyer Droids around - right?
Instead of leaping to the stupid conclusion that they must lack multi-ton TK, you should instead look for an explanation which explains all of the evidence at once.
I SPECIFICALLY addressed this point. Letting up for a half-second would mean death. So you run AROUND the droid and have your half-second. But they didn't. No, they ran away. So, either they are fucking IDIOTS, or they were not capable of doing this. They can obviously move very quickly. They can obviously TK very powerfully, but apparently the harder it is, the more TIME and CONCENTRATION they need. Dont give them the TIME or CONCENTRATION and they can't TK you to death.So what do you think is the case? It's clear that they DO have multi-ton TK; throwing heavy metallic battle droids around like rag dolls is child's play for them. It's also clear that they have the super-speed, since we saw it. You're simply arguing that they should have used their abilities differently, and then leaping to the asinine conclusion that they must not have those abilities even though they were demonstrated onscreen.
Perhaps because letting up for even a half-second to apply a TK shove would have meant death? What's your explanation? Do you agree with TK that they must lack abilities that they have demonstrated onscreen?
Emphasis mine.So? Droidekas can't turn around too quickly, so that wouldn't matter. But a more powerful application of the Force (such as super-speed, partial intangibility, or heavy TK) requires a fraction of a second to initiate, and they were a little busy. What is this supposed to prove?
So, if Spiderman keeps the Jedi busy - for example by shooting webs at him - he can't TK. Concession accepted.
Maneuverability that a Jedi does not have. Maneuverability that Spiderman does have.Accelerating from a standing start is a change of velocity, dumb-ass. Maneuverability is simply a matter of the ability to accelerate in arbitrary directions.
Which is why they knew in TPM that the Trade Federation would try to kill them, long before they were on the ship, right?True, both sides have it. Jedi precog, however, has greater range in the sense that they can sense things which are going to happen well into the future, and from light-years away.
Actually, they realized it just shortly before they were about to be killed by the gas.
KK has shown panels where he is a tornado, with the adversary practically a statue in comparison to Spiderman. So we have a comparison.A cartoon panel does not indicate that he is actually a blur. In case you didn't notice, when they show that, they often show the other person's head "blurring" the same way, shown in multiple positions. The cartoon format is freeze-frames to depict a story, and you don't know how much time is elapsed during each frame. Since a frame often encompasses dialogue that would take a considerable amount of time to say, it is ridiculous to argue that a "bouncing around the panel" frame must mean that Spiderman moves like a blur.
As Spiderman has moved so quickly that to others he was a mere blur of motion, which has never been the case for Jedi (we have one case where they turn themselves invisible in TPM, they are not a blur of motion) I do not need calculations or acceleration figures. If I see a person pick up a car, I can safely say that he is stronger than I am (as I can't pick up a car) without calculations. Calculations are not a necessity when you can see the difference.You have acceleration figures to prove this? If so, present them.
Its nothing about being a hypocrite, it is something about thinking LOGICALLY. Something which you think is superior to everything else. One scene in question: http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon ... inger1.jpgFunny how they must be realistic in the sense that a certain amount of force is required, yet you get to throw realism out the window when it is pointed out that the amount of force required would produce side effects. Typical selective application of logic which I see from idiots. Tell me, how do you know what a train weighs, or how much force it takes to lift one? FROM REAL-LIFE PHYSICS? Yet what do you throw out the window as soon as it becomes inconvenient? Yup- real life physics. Hypocrite.
According to you this entire scene hasn't happened as there is no physical way for that to happen which happened here. After all, if the train car is that heavy and spiderman would try to toss it over with one finger then the whole thing would have dented (except if the material would be impossibly robust). If the train is very light, and spiderman tries to toss it over with one finger, then the material would also dent (at the least when it hit the ground with quite a lot of force as it throws up quite a lot of dust and makes a very loud noise). So no matter what you choose - physically it is not possible. So your reasoning tells us that this scene didn't take place. But, you know this scene actually DID take place. So now we have to logically decide what really happened and what the best theory is. One way to do this is to try and understand what the author/drawer of the comic wanted to show. This is obviously the strength of spiderman and not the weakness of the other guy.
We ignore the laws of physics if it is obvious that the author/drawer forgot the laws of physics or didn't care about them. What matters is what is meant to be shown not what is shown.Correct, but we only have two choices:Kaptain Krackhead has been using the latter method, and so have you.
- Interpret them according to the laws of physics
- Apply the laws of physics only when it's convenient, and throw them out the window when they get in the way of a good pre-ordained conclusion
How would you explain away the Hulk scene I mentioned? Simply say it didn't happen? Or say that the author (or rather director) forgot that the turret would simply break off the tank but still acknowldedge that the Hulk is strong enough to throw 60 tons or so around? Even if it means ignoring the laws of phyics in a certain circumstance?
DID YOU READ WHAT I FUCKING SAID? I said what was the strongest that we have a Jedi PHYSICALLY do. And you counter this with a feat accomplished with the force?!?Lifting an X-wing fighter out of a swamp comes to mind, since you have not presented a case to eliminate TK. The force required to lift a tank out of a swamp is around twice the force required to lift it off solid ground, so the force requirement for what Luke did is considerable, even if it only moved a few feet.What is the strongest we have seen a Jedi PHYSICALLY do?
The strongest that comes to my mind is Obi-wan jumping up again from where he was shoved down by Darth Maul during the fight in TPM.
It is a comic, made by people, maybe not that terribly intelligent people, people who do not care about the laws of physics as much as you do, people who therefore do not calculate how many mm a wall has to be indented by a certain mass hitting the wall at a certain speed. What they want to show is what is important, not WHAT they show.Spiderman is physically stronger than a Jedi. However, the speed arguments fall flat; the use of a comic panel (and implicit assumption that the whole panel must take a second or so) is a rather weak argument. I suppose I could point out the damage that he should leave on walls if he bounces off them at the velocities you claim, but of course, that would be physics, and I must remember that you only apply physics when convenient (eg- to calculate the force required to do something while ignoring all of the other physical parameters of that act as you describe)
If I would make a short movie, and in this movie (as I don't have much money) state that this basketball is Earth and proceed to blow it up with a lego spaceship of my own creation, then obviously I want to show that this spacecraft is powerful enough to blow up a planet. Even if it is obvious that the planet is a basketball. The intentions (of the producer/director) count more than what is shown in the movie due to limitations on the capabilities of the producer/director and his team. These limitations can be of material nature (as in my example) or they can be logical limitations (as is the case in comic books).
He can shoot webs with quite a lot of force in them. Using these he can distract the Jedi (by forcing him to deflect or evade them) and thereby stop the Jedi using TK - by your own admission.He doesn't have to. Unless Spiderman has some incredibly destructive ranged attack that we don't know about, he can take a half-second to apply his TK punch. Don't bullshit me and tell me that Spiderman can take out anybody at any range in less than a half-second.
Imminent personal danger? KK provided an example where he knew of a danger hours in advance. This is superior to a Jedi's danger precog - seen in TPM in the beginning, when it took quite a while to realize that they were in danger.Are you seriously arguing that Spiderman can locate and attack someone who has Force prescience and supernatural awareness without giving him enough reaction time to even put out his hand?
Spiderman's precog only applies to imminent personal danger. Jedi precog applies to arbitrary events. Yoda could even monitor Luke's upbringing on Tatooine from Dagobah!
This example does point out quite nicely that size DOES matter, or in other words - force (not the Force) does matter.Do you have ANY idea how much a column of that size could weigh? How much experience do you have working with metal?
As was already pointed out - KK provided examples where he dodged lasers without his spider-sense.Spider-sense enables him to move out of the path where the laser will go; it doesn't make him fast enough to actually move out of the way of the laser in flight.
I said this for one reason: To show that he isn't debating uselessly.Is this circle-jerk satisfying for you? Of course, I should keep in mind that you are also convinced that the Matrix has no serious plot holes. You appear to convince easily, if you are inclined to do so.
Matrix has no serious plot holes. It does have several severe logical holes. Quite a big difference.
