Scarlet-Spider vs Jedi

[Crown]

He has no direct defense. He does have some indirect defenses, though.

His speed is the main one. If he can attack fast enough that the Jedi is forced to defend himself at close range, the Jedi won't be able to use a good deal of TK. At least no more than to boost his physical abilities.

And it's been shown that Jedi do need a deal of concentration to use TK, and he could keep the Jedi occupied enough to not allow him that concentration. Either by blockign webbing, dodging webbing, or anything of the sort.

If he is levitated, he could use stingers to break the Jedi's concentration, or pull a Dooku and use webbing to pull down the ceiling over the Jedi.

It all comes down to a good offense being useless if you aren't fast enough to make the battle fought on your terms.

There are two things I wish to bring to your attention;

"Then Spicewood (Corran's grandfather) dove for his blade and Nightsweat stabbed down. I could almost feel the blade burning its way through my friend, severing the ties his life had to his body. I would have expected him to die instantly, but he managed a smile. The azure blade fixing him to the ground sputtered and died and in an instant I knew what he had done, how he had employed the rarest of all Jedi gifts, and what a terrible price he had paid for it.
Nightsweat rose into the air, then convulsed and seemed to implode. I saw the body fly back through the tents built beneath the duracrete dome. Nightsweat exploded, as did the dark Jedi Desertwind had slain. Their mortal bodies no longer able to contain the dark-side energy, it flashed out in a blue fireball that shattered the duracrete dome.

<snip>

I looked down and saw him (Corran's grandfather) fade away, his burned clothes collapsing, his lightsabre settling into the dust"

Here is an example where one Jedi, just flat out overpowered a Dark Jedi and crushed him. And while you would be right in saying this doesn't address Spiderman's speed issue, if it wasn't for the following;

<Snip, Luke is about to be killed by Xizor's assassin droid Guri, he was destracted and is lying on the floor, Guri moves 'supernaturally' fast>

" He had to trust the Force completely-
Guri slowed, as if she were suddenly mired in thickened time. He saw her hand descending, saw it moving to smash him, but it was so incredibly slow, why, he could easily just roll aside and stand, before she ever reached him...
He did so. He felt as if he were moving at normal speed, though there was a crackling feeling to his motion, a sound like a strong wind whistling about his ears.
He came up, pivoted, thrust his open palm against the descending chop, shoved it aside. He used his left leg, a sweep that caught Guri behind the right ankle. Her feet left the floor, still moving in slow motion, and she fell, floated down, hit flat on her back ...
Time speeded up."

So while I will happily conceed that Guri isn't as fast as Spiderman (for now, since I can't remember her speed being defined as anything more substanial that 'supernatural' in the book, although I haven't read it for years), it demonstrates that Jedi do not soley rely on precognition, they can also speed themselves up.

So while they couldn't (perhaps) speed themselves to Spiderman level couldn't they speed themselves fast enough to not be in such a precarious dis-advantage?

But all this is really window dressing as I have always maintained that the Force doesn't act towards Spiderman (thus something he could very well dodge), but acts on him. Meaning that it is inherinetly already there.

[Crossover_Maniac]

First of all, I never claimed Jedi were capable of juggling planets.

Okay fine, I won't use the hyperbole. Prove the Jedi went from AT-AT-juggling to pansies in the course of ten years and not notice it.

Second, the Jedi's diminishing control over the force was gradual, and the council probably did notice it. And what makes you think they didn't notice that the Jedi were getting weaker?

How can anyone not notice that. You'd think ordinary people, not Force-users, watching Jedis in their 'aggressive negotiations' would notice their powers degrading if they were so powerful just ten years ago.

[D.Turtle]

Long enough for Spiderman to reach the Jedi and kill him or beat him unconscious.

Fascinating. How?[/quote]
By kicking and hitting the Jedi, you idiot.

Bullfuck. He sent pieces flying WHILE fighting, you idiot, there was no letup. I see we have reduced ourselves to simply denying the evidence.

I fucking said IIRC. That means I am not entirely sure. So it is nothing about denying the fucking evidence but not being so sure of it you fucking idiot. For the moment I'll drop this point, until I can check the movie again.

It was in the middle of a lightsabre fight with a Sith Lord, you stupid moron fucknut- Anakin didn't lower his sabre, take a deep breath, and concentrate really hard, he did it in the middle of a fight with an ENEMY force user, the entire POINT was to block Dooku's mode of retreat DURING the fight, restricting his options during the duel. Jeezus christ, give it up, you've already made yourself out to be a complete fucking dumbass.

How do you explain the scene in TPM where two Jedi flee from 2 droidekas? Why didn't they TK?
Even Darth Wong has admitted that they didn't because they were fully concentrating on blocking their blaster fire and therefore couldn't TK.

As I haven't read the novelisation I can't check to see if this is correct. I'll drop this point.

Sure, after all, what are blaster bolts compared to some goon in spandex?

Blaster bolts travel in a straight line and can't change directions. Spiderman can.If Spiderman can change direction faster than the Jedi can react, then the precog of the Jedi won't help him too much - precog is only as good as your ability to react to the warning the precog gives you.

Yes, and as you've already established, Spiderman can just sit there and continuously shoot webs all day

He only has to shoot as long as he needs to reach the Jedi ...

Ah yes, the fact that they would be totally ineffective won't be a problem

IIRC, KK mentioned that the webs are more than capable of knocking a person cold.

WTF?

Its actually quite simple:
A lightsabre is only so and so thick.
Something thicker would be cut, but the momentum would let the things to the left and the right of the blade continue on. Which would mean that the Jedi would have to evade.
For example: I use a sword and the Jedi a light sabre. If I swing at the Jedi and he blocks using his lightsabre, he will cut right through the sword. However, part of the blade will coninue on. The Jedi would have to evade the flying piece of blade. Pretty much the same thing as would happen with a web that was thicker than the lightsabre.

LOL. Sure, it can cut through solid fucking metal, but it can't cut through spider silk. Fucking dumbass ... give up, it's getting really pathetic.

And Spidermans web is completely normal spider silk. After all - normal spider silk can carry peopl, buses, cars etc right?

Ah, and as we know, all people with weapons are the same! Dumbass.

Of course not. But you were acting as if it was a huge revelation that a Jedi has a lightsabre with which he can fight Spiderman. And you acted as if this was something special - a person with a weapon. Which it obviously isn't.

Keep telling yourself that, fanwhore.

Can a Jedi dodge machine gun fire - not by running outside the line of fire, but by twisting through the stream of bullets?

Fucking idiot. It doesn't matter where the lightsabre hits, it CUTS, you stupid fuck. Nice nitpick of HOW it cuts, though. Completely irrelevant to the point.

It doesn't matter if the Jedi has a sword of ultra-doom if he cant fucking hit spiderman. Fucking idiot.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Since you love using all of these examples out of the EU, then you wouldn't mind using the rest of the EU canon and concede that a Jedi can't Force-choke. And we'll insist on using Firelord-stomping, Spider-Man, which means Spider-Man's punches are more powerful than the forces generated by blackholes, which doesn't even phase Firelord.

Then since we are using the EU, then you won't mind conceeding the arguement based on a post I made 5 pages ago!

Actually I would. If we're using high end figures, then Spider-Man can throw punches with more force than what Firelord experience while fighting inside a blackhole. And let's not forget that Spider-Man was taking punches from the Hulk, whose thunderclap can be felt throughout the cosmos. If Spider-Man is that powerful and durable given the high end values, then I don't see anything that the Jedi or even Palpatine can possibly do to him.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Also in Shadow's of the Empire Luke fights Yuri (spell) Xizor's assasin droid, since she wanted to test herself against a Jedi (she moves too fast for the human eye), during the battle Luke sees her moving 'like she is fighting in mud', giving him ample time to move out of the way.

Then everyone on Jabba's barge during the Pit of Sarlaac seen (Boba Fett, Han, Leia, Lando, and Jabba's hired muscle) must be able to move as fast as Luke since there was real difference in their speed and Luke's.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Also in Shadow's of the Empire Luke fights Yuri (spell) Xizor's assasin droid, since she wanted to test herself against a Jedi (she moves too fast for the human eye), during the battle Luke sees her moving 'like she is fighting in mud', giving him ample time to move out of the way.

Then everyone on Jabba's barge during the Pit of Sarlaac scene (Boba Fett, Han, Leia, Lando, and Jabba's hired muscle) must be able to move as fast as Luke since there was real difference in their speed and Luke's.

[Crossover_Maniac]

And what makes you think they didn't notice that the Jedi were getting weaker?

1). The utter shock Yoda had when they discovered the clone army

Yoda just realized that they weren't able to forsee things in the distant future.

2).The fact that they were able to keep something like that a secret.

I mean, how does anyone not notice the Jedi going from uber telekenetics to pansies? You can't keep that a secret. Now, their ability to use the Force was diminished due to the shroud of the Dark Side absuring their greatest assess, their long term precognition, and nothing else. No one, not even the Jedi, would notice until it was too late and something catastraphic like the Clone Wars took place.

[KK]

Spider sense is NOT precognition idiot. It alerts him to a VAGUE sense of danger, it cannot be used to see the future, which depending on level of skill can be seconds ahead (untrained Anakin) or at least hours/days (Yoda).

I'm going to ask you to not debate characters you know less than nothing about.

The fact that you think Spider-Man's webbing is actual spider silk pretty much invalidates anything you claim to know about the character. His webbing is FAR tougher than steel, and it takes strength greater than The Thing's to break it.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Okay, I'm going to take my time and explain how a Jedi using even 100% reliable Force precog cannot always win. Let's have a match between Obi-Wan and the Flash. Let's say we give Obi Wan one hour of prep time to meditate on the Force. Using this meditation, he's predicted that the Flash will try to punch him in two places on his body: first, his chest, and then, his head. Then, it's time for the match. Obi Wan, using Force precog, positions his lightsaber to block the Flash's first punch. Now, since the Flash can move at relativistic velocities and has the reflexes to use them, pulls his punch and aims for Obi-Wan's face. His punch is now going at Mach 25, and assuming his fist has to travel a length of 2 1/2 feet, manages to land a punch in 2.7E-8 seconds which is far too fast for Obi Wan to reposition his lightsaber to block a blow to the head. The match ends with Obi Wan's brains splattered all over the arena. While Force precog is an effective tool, it's useless if the Jedi's reaction time is too slow to make any use of it, as KK pointed it. Now, I finished with this debate. I'm not going to explain it again. You can put up your stupid little 'Concession Accepted' pic and pat yourself on the back on a job pretending that you didn't get an assbeat. I'm not going to even bother with you.

[Crossover_Maniac]

And if anyone nitpicks me the fact that I said the Flash can move at relativatistic velocities and throws a punch at only Mach 25, try to remember this is only an example, the Flash can throw faster punches, and if he does, the KE from the punch would produce a nuclear bomb-level explosion.

[D.Turtle]

I just watched the scene in ESB again.
It goes something like this:
Luke is walking across the hallway.
He hears Darth Vade breath and pulls out his light saber.
Darth Vader approaches him.
Luke prepares to battle Darth Vader.
Darth Vader TKs a big piece of metal at Luke.
Luke evades and cuts it.
Darth Vader attack Luke.
They exchange a few hits and end up in a saber lock.
Darth Vader waits a short while and TKs a piece of metal at Luke.
Luke tries to evade.
Darth Vader backs off and starts TKing several pieces of metal at Luke until one punches through the window and Luke is sucked out.

NOWHERE in this scene does Darth Vader TK WHILE fighting. He needs a slight break before he is able to TK the pieces of metal at Luke.

So I remembered the scene correctly.
And you were stating utter BULLSHIT when you said:

Bullfuck. He sent pieces flying WHILE fighting, you idiot, there was no letup. I see we have reduced ourselves to simply denying the evidence.

Let me tell you:
I see YOU have reduced YOUSELF to simply denying the evidence.
Even Darth Wong admits that Jedi have to concentrate (or need a short respite from action) before they TK.
Concession accepted.

Here is the quote from Darth Wong (page 14 last post on the page of this thread):

Perhaps because letting up for even a half-second to apply a TK shove would have meant death?

[Crossover_Maniac]

His punch is now going at Mach 25, and assuming his fist has to travel a length of 2 1/2 feet, manages to land a punch in 2.7E-8 seconds which is far too fast for Obi Wan to reposition his lightsaber to block a blow to the head. The match ends with Obi Wan's brains splattered all over the arena.

Correction, it will take 9.7E-5 seconds for the Flash to land a punch. Still too fast for Obi Wan to position his light-saber in order to block.

[Darth Wong]

Actually I would. If we're using high end figures, then Spider-Man can throw punches with more force than what Firelord experience while fighting inside a blackhole.

Please produce the calculations to show how much force Firelord experiences while fighting inside a black hole.

Keep in mind that time does not pass inside a black hole, so it is impossible to fight inside one. If he was fighting in something, it could not have been a black hole.

This is the basic problem with all of you comic whores; you declare that something is proof of super-uber-power because of some vague qualitative feeling gleaned from a miniscule half-knowledge of science, and when someone points out that it doesn't work, you say "well, comics aren't supposed to conform to science anyway". So why do you invoke science in the first place then? What is a black hole, if not a SCIENTIFIC THEORY?

And let's not forget that Spider-Man was taking punches from the Hulk, whose thunderclap can be felt throughout the cosmos.

He can't roll with the blows?

If Spider-Man is that powerful and durable given the high end values, then I don't see anything that the Jedi or even Palpatine can possibly do to him.

Mere wanking. According to you and your fellow fan-whore KK, what would defeat Spiderman?

The fact is that you refuse to apply consistent logic to SW and Spiderman in this case. Yes, a Jedi can be beaten, even with precog and TK. Even great power does not make one invincible, and humans aren't perfect; they can make mistakes, have lapses in judgement, etc.

The same, however, is true of Spiderman, but even when presented with examples where this has happened (eg- Punisher crossovers), you simply dismiss them. And you insist on declaring that your methods are "objective" even though you refuse to allow literal interpretation of pictures (obviously, you use the word "objective" the same way the religious fundie idiots do; as the exact opposite of what it really means).

[Dillon]

1). The utter shock Yoda had when they discovered the clone army

Yoda just realized that they weren't able to forsee things in the distant future.

Again, perhaps they knew their abilities were diminishing, but didn't know they had diminished that much.

2).The fact that they were able to keep something like that a secret.

I mean, how does anyone not notice the Jedi going from uber telekenetics to pansies? You can't keep that a secret. Now, their ability to use the Force was diminished due to the shroud of the Dark Side absuring their greatest assess, their long term precognition, and nothing else. No one, not even the Jedi, would notice until it was too late and something catastraphic like the Clone Wars took place.

They could still use telekinesis, just not as well, also you assume a lot of people see Jedi fight when this isn't necessarily true.

[Darth Wong]

Okay, I'm going to take my time and explain how a Jedi using even 100% reliable Force precog cannot always win. Let's have a match between Obi-Wan and the Flash. Let's say we give Obi Wan one hour of prep time to meditate on the Force. Using this meditation, he's predicted that the Flash will try to punch him in two places on his body: first, his chest, and then, his head. Then, it's time for the match. Obi Wan, using Force precog, positions his lightsaber to block the Flash's first punch. Now, since the Flash can move at relativistic velocities and has the reflexes to use them, pulls his punch and aims for Obi-Wan's face. His punch is now going at Mach 25, and assuming his fist has to travel a length of 2 1/2 feet, manages to land a punch in 2.7E-8 seconds which is far too fast for Obi Wan to reposition his lightsaber to block a blow to the head.

Except that Obi-Wan began repositioning his lightsabre before Flash even though of doing that, and the Flash is being slowed down and having his movements limited by the Force. That's what the precog and TK are typically used for in Jedi combat.

The match ends with Obi Wan's brains splattered all over the arena. While Force precog is an effective tool, it's useless if the Jedi's reaction time is too slow to make any use of it, as KK pointed it. Now, I finished with this debate. I'm not going to explain it again. You can put up your stupid little 'Concession Accepted' pic and pat yourself on the back on a job pretending that you didn't get an assbeat. I'm not going to even bother with you.

You're a lying little cunt, just like KK.

[Darth Wong]

BTW, if Flash really moved at relativistic speeds, everyone within a line of sight of him would be killed by the radiative pulse from the plasma bow wave. Since this obviously does not happen, he can't be moving at relativistic speeds.

[kojikun]

BTW, if Flash really moved at relativistic speeds, everyone within a line of sight of him would be killed by the radiative pulse from the plasma bow wave. Since this obviously does not happen, he can't be moving at relativistic speeds.

Don't forget the shockwaves, synchrotron radiation, and high gravitational fields produced by high PSL massive objects and their increased mass.

[Typhonis 1]

using high end Jedi figures the Jedi could pick Spidey up with TK and impale him on a flag pole or a pipe .

[KK]

BTW, if Flash really moved at relativistic speeds, everyone within a line of sight of him would be killed by the radiative pulse from the plasma bow wave. Since this obviously does not happen, he can't be moving at relativistic speeds.

The speed force negates the laws of relativity, cuntrag. He can pick and choose which laws apply at any given time. That's his specific power. If he chooses to allow certain laws to apply, he can punch with the mass of a white dwarf star.


SPECIAL NEWS BULLETIN: THE FORCE IGNORES PHYSICS!

[KK]

Please produce the calculations to show how much force Firelord experiences while fighting inside a black hole.

Oh, I get it.

You're joking.

Good one.

This is the basic problem with all of you comic whores; you declare that something is proof of super-uber-power because of some vague qualitative feeling gleaned from a miniscule half-knowledge of science,

and when someone points out that it doesn't work, you say "well, comics aren't supposed to conform to science anyway".

What the fuck do you expect? It's a goddamn fact that comics aren't the real world. You're living in a fantasy.

So why do you invoke science in the first place then? What is a black hole, if not a SCIENTIFIC THEORY?

Because that's how it was presented in the comic.

He can't roll with the blows?

For the goddamn 50th time, I've shown scans where he DIDN'T roll with the blows.

And how the fuck do you roll with an omnidirectional nuke-dwarfing blast of force?

Mere wanking. According to you and your fellow fan-whore KK, what would defeat Spiderman?

Not a fucking Jedi. Jedi are way down the power pole. Thinking a character would beat a Jedi hardly requires an invincible character.

The fact is that you refuse to apply consistent logic to SW and Spiderman in this case.

Excuse me? I flat out offered you a chance to use my method of average display of power for each, but you insisted on labelling Spider-Man's average feat as his best and pitting them against the actual best for the Jedi.

I didn't even bring Spider-Man's high end feats into it until I got sick of you complaining that I had when I hadn't.

The same, however, is true of Spiderman, but even when presented with examples where this has happened (eg- Punisher crossovers),

Are you deaf, blind, or just an asshole? The Punisher crossover was OUT-OF-CONTINUITY in a What If? story. In the *actual* story it was based on, Punisher tried to use a sniper rifle on Spidey, and he casually dodged it mid-swing.

[AdmiralKanos]

Please produce the calculations to show how much force Firelord experiences while fighting inside a black hole.

Oh, I get it.

You're joking.

Good one.

No, that's the whole fucking point, isn't it? You're saying that he must be incredibly powerful to do that. I'm saying "fine, show me just how powerful". The problem is, you can't do it. There is no way to calculate it because the parameters of the claim don't make any sense according to the definition of a black hole.

You are a classic fan-whore; you cherry-pick bits of science which suit you and ignore all of the complicated extra stuff that comes along with it and which you don't understand. You know a black hole is supposed to be really nasty, but you have no idea how it is defined, so it makes perfect sense to you that a super-powerful being might be able to move around inside one. When someone points out that it doesn't make any sense, you have no logical answer, so you resort to simply insulting or mocking him.

This has been your conduct throughout this entire thread. You posted a picture of Spiderman tipping over a boxcar that was already up on an angle as disproof of the 15-ton figure from Marvel Universe (ie- you asked us to accept it as literal evidence), and then when we pointed out that the boxcar wasn't even dented by this supposedly mighty impact, you screamed that we shouldn't be taking it literally and mocked us for even trying, even though you couldn't really present a logical reason to take one part of that picture as gospel evidence while ignoring another part.

You are so full of shit that you can't even post evidence without contradicting yourself, for fuck's sake.

What the fuck do you expect? It's a goddamn fact that comics aren't the real world. You're living in a fantasy.

No, YOU are living in a fantasy. If you accept that comics aren't scientific, then why are you bothering to throw around concepts like physical force, which has no meaning outside of a physics context? You decide to apply science when it suits you even though you categorically reject its basic principles and applicability to the situation. That is a textbook "stolen concept" fallacy.

So why do you invoke science in the first place then? What is a black hole, if not a SCIENTIFIC THEORY?

Because that's how it was presented in the comic.

No, it was not. The writers obviously don't know what a black hole is, so they created something in their ignorance which they called a black hole but obviously wasn't.

He can't roll with the blows?

For the goddamn 50th time, I've shown scans where he DIDN'T roll with the blows.

Bullshit. How can you fucking tell he didn't roll with the blow in a static picture?

And how the fuck do you roll with an omnidirectional nuke-dwarfing blast of force?

You leap backward so that the shock won't accelerate you as much. Duh.

BTW, I like the "nuke-dwarfing" exaggeration. Very nice. Care to explain what the yield is, and how you derived it?

Mere wanking. According to you and your fellow fan-whore KK, what would defeat Spiderman?

Not a fucking Jedi. Jedi are way down the power pole. Thinking a character would beat a Jedi hardly requires an invincible character.

You're evading the question. According to you, a fucking army couldn't defeat Spiderman. You have elevated Spiderman to a ridiculous level through various bullshit fallacies, selectively interpreted pieces of evidence, and snippets of pseudoscience whenever it suits you (always accompanied by the disclaimer that if anyone tries to delve into those pseudoscientific bits with actual science, you will flame and ignore him).

The fact is that you refuse to apply consistent logic to SW and Spiderman in this case.

Excuse me? I flat out offered you a chance to use my method of average display of power for each, but you insisted on labelling Spider-Man's average feat as his best and pitting them against the actual best for the Jedi.

Wrong. The entire Star Wars literature (including both canon and quasi-canon materials) average display of power is more than enough to beat Spiderman's average display of power, and your response to that fact is to simply ignore the EU.

I didn't even bring Spider-Man's high end feats into it until I got sick of you complaining that I had when I hadn't.

Bullshit; you started right off the bat screaming that Spiderman can ignore multi-ton TK.

The same, however, is true of Spiderman, but even when presented with examples where this has happened (eg- Punisher crossovers),

Are you deaf, blind, or just an asshole? The Punisher crossover was OUT-OF-CONTINUITY in a What If? story.

Red herring. The point is that the crossover shows what is possible. Even if something is out of continuity, the power levels and capabilities of the characters are the same. That is the whole point.

In the *actual* story it was based on, Punisher tried to use a sniper rifle on Spidey, and he casually dodged it mid-swing.

Don't you understand that this only means it was simply good fortune that saved Spidey, as it usually does?

You are a class A troll; you have repeatedly ignored numerous feats of Jedi strength which push the average way up, while still claiming that the average is super-low. You have repeatedly invoked science when convenient, and then immediately tried to declare it inadmissible when someone who actually knows what he's talking about tries to discuss the point. You have posted pictures and then demanded that we ignore the parts of those pictures which contradict you while treating other parts as gospel. And now you've started a whole separate thread on the same basic subject as this one, in order to multiply your bullshit.

This thread is therefore pointless and closed. Continue your pathetic dishonest fan-whore wanking and "do as I say, not as I do" arguments in the other thread if you like, but stop multiplying threads, and maybe if you want to earn respect as anything but a dishonest little shit, try dealing with rebuttals rather than ignoring them or mocking them even if you can't address their logic.