Ontario residents: Who would you vote for?

[Icehawk]

Iceberg: in case you consider that post too long to answer, then answer me this: you harp on your knowledge of teaching (knowledge shown to be grossly exaggerated by your numerous large factual errors), but how much knowledge do you have of the working life and benefits of the 80% of the private sector workforce which is not unionized, yet is forced to pay taxes to support the pensions and salaries of people whose benefits far outstrip their own?

I will conceed that I messed up on the 4 years teaching college part (I misstook it for the time they spent in University) and that I got the salaries messed up. However I wasn't lieing because I was basing it all off the salaries of other teachers I know and what they made when they started off. I believe that the reason why people pay taxes to support pensions and salaries of people whos benefits outstrip their own is because that teachers are an invaluble part of society who deserve every penny they get for the job they do. Im not saying that positions in the private sector don't deserve better or comparable salaries. Im simply defending the teaching profession based on the knowledge I have of the work and dedication put out by my parents and all the other teachers I know.

I have friends, relatives, and acquaintances who are teachers. I have also spent time in classrooms, observing teachers in action, I have volunteered, and I have researched the entrance requirements and compensation (more thoroughly than you, apparently). This gives me some knowledge of the other side, and I can state clearly that every honest teacher who knows what it's like on the outside does not whine or bullshit about how hard his job is. What is your knowledge of the other side?

Have you ever told your "friends, relatives, and acquaintances" about your views on them and your contempt for their jobs? Im sure they would all love to here you tell them that you think "nobody wants to hire them, because they can't or won't put in a hard day's work." Anyways, you may have had some expierience in your kids classrooms but I believe you are still misinformed as to just how much goes on during the everyday lives of many teachers in their profession throughout their career.

In regards to the everyday lives of the private sector workforce, sure I don't have much first hand expierience, I am still in college for petes sake. I have had a job in retail for three years though and I know for certain what life is like in that respect for myself and for co-workers.

[Solauren]

Most teachers bitch about salary and work conditions because of the time post-high school they have to spend in college and university (depending on the type of teacher they want to be) and the money they shell out to become teachers.

The way to counter this is simple

1- Elminate the crap from the education teachers get after high school. No sitting there listening to someone read to appreciate the kids point of view, etc. Try to shrink the time down needed to become one.

2- Lower the price down if they sign a contract saying after graduation, they will teach in Ontario for 5 years. If they breech that contract, they lose there teachers liscence (taking time off for good reasons, i.e family death, having kids, etc, doesn't count as breech of contract) and can not teach in CANADA. No sign contract, you pay full rates.

Optional; 3- If you go to 'teachers college' in Ontario, after teaching here for 5 years, you get the money back you spent on it (only for courses you passed, if you failed a credit or so, you don't get that back).

Now they have nothing to complain about. It didn't take them as long to become a teacher, and they got the money back by being good public servants.

Before you can become a teacher in Ontario-
1) Aptitude test; should you even be a teacher (given once every 5 years)
2) Competency test (Elementary and High School); How well do you get on the final exams of the subjects you are teaching? If you don't walk out with a 90%, you shouldn't be teaching that subject
3)- Competency evaluations:
High School level: Did a student's marks take a big nose dive in your class from the previous year in the same subject? (10% is not a big drop, that's just the student not pulling up for the harder material). If so, how many did? if it's a large number, that's not a good thing. Not class average, number of students who's marks suck now. Off course, you have to take other things into account, like type of student (troublemakers do not count), and if there over-all average dropped, etc. But if an 70 average student is only getting 60 in your course and was getting 80 last year, there might be a problem.
Grade School: harder to say.

Other things would have to be done to raise the quality of education in Ontario.

Problem is, no one can agree on what, because it will cost money, which means more taxes.

I have a few ideas that might be workable. Like to graduate high school, you are TA in Grade 11/12 for a Grade 1 - 8 teacher (if anyone asks or complains, it's to help prepare them to help out there kids when they have them. if they don't plan to have kids, oh well, sucks to be them)

This will lighten up the marking load on teachers for alot of tests and assignments. English essays etc will be the teachers responsibility, but math tests are easy to mark, as are science tests etc. I mean, if a Grade 11 can't do Grade 2 math....

Actually, doing that would solve alot of problems in the education system. I mean, it would be hard for teachers to pad marks so they look good if after marking say, last weeks math test, her Grade 11 TA enters it into the school computer and the TA's notes and gives that to the TA's high school teacher/supervisor and they enter it before giving it back to the grade school teacher. Now if a kid isn't getting the marks, the teacher can't "wink them buy". you'd be surprised how often that happens.

Also, the teachers would now be under a helpful form of "can they do there job, are they doing there job" and monitoring would be easy to do. You just sit the TA's down, go over the tests etc they marked, and you could tell if the teacher was a waste of a pay cheque. You only send 'good students' to help in the classroom, and keep the ones that might be a problem in the high school doing the marking.

[Hobot]

I rather like that idea of having senior year high school students serving as teacher assistants. That would be very educational for the high school students (you'll end up having to teach and evaluate at least one person over the course of your life) and it would lighten the load for both elementary and high school teachers.

[Solauren]

Thank you.

There are lots of ways to fix some of the problems in the education system. That is one of the big ones.

Now put in a system to monitor job performance fairly, and more of them will go.

Other problems, like bullying, are easy to fix too.

Now, if you want to hear my solution with unions, that's simple

Instead of a strike (I'll give an example of that in a minute), if the company can not agree with the union by the union's deadline, the government should immediately step in and negotiate. If the company and union can't reach an agreement withing 2 - 3 weeks under abirtration, the company has to hand the government its total finacal records, and have the government look over them and find out why they are not meeting, then make a decision. I think this would make most of the companies more amendable.
However, if the government says "sorry, they can't afford your request", then the UNION is shit out of luck.
Also, the government has the right to say a union contract request is unreasonable. This would be based on other union contracts. For example, GM's union contract would probably be the 'bar' for big automotive manufacturers.

Now, my union example
I am in a union. They went on strike last year, and I lost 10 weeks of pay. Want to know what it was over? Wages.

Now then, they did have a vote. However, the vote was only if you accept or reject the contract. There was no "do you want to strike if the contract is not accepted" or "extend deadline". There always was until then.
To make a story short, there was a 80% rejection. With only 60% of the union voting.
I was forced to go on strike because I couldn't make it down to vote on the contract, like alot of people. I mean, the voting was during work. Fine. Put it in the same fucking building I work in then so I can do it on my lunch or after work. Don't put it 3 blocks away in the middle of winter.

I lost a little over $6000 dollars in wages, plus I had to burn off 10 weeks of rent and food and bills from my savings. I didn't want to strike, and I wasn't allowed to work during the strike (at least, not for my employeer). All told, that strike cost me about $11,000. And I can't get it back.

Guess what. The wage increase everyone got and wanted, over the next 3 years to the next contract, comes out to about 10 weeks wages.

Anyone see the point I'm trying to make?

Sure, we got the contract changes we wanted outside of wage. Great.
However, if he had dropped the wage increase down to what the government had offered, there would have been no strike.