Corporal Punishment in Grade School

[jegs2]

Inspired by a poll seen on the Fox News website, I offer this poll. For the purposes of this poll, "grade school," refers to K through 12th grades (US).

[Hethrir]

I got my share of beatings, and it did me well. I soon learnt that if i misbehaved i got the caine, so i behaved. Does anyone else see the link between misbehaving kids and the removal of corporal punishment?

[Sir Sirius]

I voted for: Yes! Corporal punishment is barbaric & should be banned outright!

Infact in Finland corporal punishment is banned outright.

[InnerBrat]

My parents spanked me when I deserved it/they lost their temper, and while it's not certain I learned form it anymore than just general shame, I don't resent them or anything.

But I woudln't have anyone except the parents being violent towards children - I do have many issues with my child minder, among which is that she hit me for ot letting her spoilt brat of a kid have her own way all the time

[Sir Sirius]

I got my share of beatings, and it did me well. I soon learnt that if i misbehaved i got the caine, so i behaved.

I have never been beaten or spanked, infact my parents never used any form of corporal punishment and I learned how to behave. There are better uppringing methods then beatings.

Does anyone else see the link between misbehaving kids and the removal of corporal punishment?

No, infact most studies indicate that spanking is not a very good method of disciplining children.

RECOMMENDATIONS

Because of the negative consequences of spanking and because it has been demonstrated to be no more effective than other approaches for managing undesired behavior in children, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that parents be encouraged and assisted in developing methods other than spanking in response to undesired behavior.

[TheFeniX]

Whenever I would bring home the slip at the beginning of the year asking my parents about corporal punishment, my mom always checked the "no" box and sent it back. Not that she was against it, she just wanted to be the one do it.

You think "fly-swatters" are only for killing bugs?

My dad had to use the belt on me once when I was 8. Of course, now-days they'd throw him in jail and take the kid away.

I've always believed that society is trying to convince itself that we have evoled past our basic instincts of violence and greed, and now somehow we should change the way we disicpline our children in accordance with our new-found "enlightentment." Only problem is: the kids aren't playing ball.

I've watched a kid throw rolled up napkins, towels, straws, and even a butter knife once at waiters while the parents say "Timmy, don't do that" and the kids just laughing in the parents face. And they still do nothing when he begins to scream and run around the restaurant like an idiot. I've watched a kid at the grocery store walking 10-feet in front of his mom, kicking and punching boxes off the shelf. "Honey, stop that." and the kid answers back "Why?"

Ok, I got smacked anytime I was foolish enough to question my parents authority when I was younger. Back then, it wasn't abuse: they called it "parenting." If I ever have kids (doubtful), and one of them laughs in my face when I tell them to stop doing something, I'll take a page from my mom and grab the fly-swatter.

[Hethrir]

snip really cool observation

Not to say that there is no truth in the research on that page (Sir Sirius link), but I remember when i was in school, everyone was well behaved, and if you didn't? You got cained and your parents were notified. People respected the caine and knew their limits.

These days i look a kids in schools and wonder what went wrong. They are foul mouthed, disobediant and generally badly behaved. It's an odd coincedence that one can observe this taking place around the time that corporal punishment is made illegal.

Now i certainly believe that there is wrong in beating a child, but getting a smack for bad behaviour is nessecary sometimes.

[Alyeska]

Corporal Punishment can be effective, but only the parents have the right to use it. If anyone (especialy a teacher or someone from a school) lays a hand on my child, I will make them regret it.

[jegs2]

My observations:

There is a marked difference between "beating" and "spanking." Beating is nearly always done out of anger and is generally a response based on anger, frustration, or some other strong emotion.

Spanking is a carefully measured punishment that is separated from anger and frustration. For example, my dad would tell me to find the paddle (a nice-sized piece of wood with holes drilled in it to reduce air resistance). By the time I brought the paddle to my dad, he would sometimes forget the reason for the spanking, but I always had to give the reason, thus reinforcing in my mind the reason for the punishment. The licks were measured, almost in a ritual manner. Later in childhood, the real punishment I received was the shame of forcing my dad's hand ("I should know better than this -- I knew the limits and purposefully crossed them"). Rarely did my dad ever hit me out of anger. I remember him slapping my sister and me when we were fighting each other in the back seat of a car. Most of the time I was spanked, it was in the manner I described. After a certain age, my dad realized there were more effective punishments (for children inevitably mature and their perspective changes), so he abandoned spanking in favor of removal of freedoms and priviledges.

[Hethrir]

ahh, sorry about that then...i used the word beating instead of "spanking." The word spanking in reference to a smack does not get used here. It was more of a joke to that Rowan Atkinson skit

[Sir Sirius]

I've always believed that society is trying to convince itself that we have evoled past our basic instincts of violence and greed, and now somehow we should change the way we disicpline our children in accordance with our new-found "enlightentment."

I think it's more like taking heed from the results of empirical studies (see link in previous post), rather then purely subjective oppinions.

Only problem is: the kids aren't playing ball.
<<Sipped to save space.>>

Fenix you seem to think that spanking is the ONLY way to discipline children and that the ONLY thing that has changed in this world over the last few decades has been that using corporal punishment on kids has been illegalized.

Obviously neither assumption is correct.

Not to say that there is no truth in the research on that page (Sir Sirius link), but I remember when i was in school, everyone was well behaved, and if you didn't? You got cained and your parents were notified. People respected the caine and knew their limits.

These days i look a kids in schools and wonder what went wrong. They are foul mouthed, disobediant and generally badly behaved. It's an odd coincedence that one can observe this taking place around the time that corporal punishment is made illegal.

Have you ever heard the Latin phrase Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc?

[Drooling Iguana]

My parents spanked me occasionally as a kid, and threatened me with it frequently. To this day, my parents are the only people on Earth to whom I feel genuine hatred.

[kojikun]

Smacking a kid and leaving a bruise or welt is where corporal punishment crosses the line into beating. I move to have pain inducers put on everyone from birth that causes mild bareable but highly irritating pain (like a headache) but no damage. :p

[Alyrium Denryle]

I was forced to cut my own fresh wilow branch when i was beaten..so you can tell how I feel about corporal punishment.

[Hethrir]

Have you ever heard the Latin phrase Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc?

OK, that cool. I'm quite willing to accept that if you can give me another explaination as to why kids misbehave these days. Unless i am imagining that?

[Knife]

No, infact most studies indicate that spanking is not a very good method of disciplining children.

Actualy the snipit of the article you quoted stated that spanking is no more effective than other methods. They only disagree with it because of the negitive notions of spanking. Rather subjective at that too.

Negitive reinforcement (which spanking is) is just as helpful as a behavour modification as positive reinforcement. To say that negitive reinforcement does not have its place, flys in the face of every trained dog, every trained military man, and every trained anything ever in history.

The question is not weather it works, but when negitive reinforcement turns into abuse. Anything taken too far is abuse, so where is the line? That is the underlying question when debates like this pop up.

Personaly, I think those that advocate mind fucking kids can be just as cruel with non coporeal punishment as those who use physical punishment. Humiliating a kid or shaming him are just as mentaly harsh as bending your kid and giving them a good swat. As most parents, I have used a combination of both methods. When asked, my kids rather take a swat over a more mental version of punishment such as grounding or loss of a favorite toy or what have you.

As too the original question, if the parents give consent to it, then they are just passing their power down to another to carry out their beliefs. If someone doesn't believe in the system then they should not be subject to it but equal and as harsh mental or paper fucking should be available for those who opt out.

[TheFeniX]

I've always believed that society is trying to convince itself that we have evoled past our basic instincts of violence and greed, and now somehow we should change the way we disicpline our children in accordance with our new-found "enlightentment."

I think it's more like taking heed from the results of empirical studies (see link in previous post), rather then purely subjective oppinions.

Granted, but studies always assume for the general masses. Being individuals means that what works on one person may not work on the other. Eg: Timmy might respond well to being spanked for breaking the TV, but Jimmy may just develope a deep seeded hatred for authority.

Only problem is: the kids aren't playing ball.
<<Sipped to save space.>>

Fenix you seem to think that spanking is the ONLY way to discipline children and that the ONLY thing that has changed in this world over the last few decades has been that using corporal punishment on kids has been illegalized.

Not at all. But, taking away a parents right to determine the best way to raise their kid isn't the answer. Of course, I'm getting off-topic but I'll finish.

My punishment cycle:
Do something wrong: Stern berating
Push the issue: Stern berating involving my full name being yelled (always hated that)
Argue with parents, do something I've been told not to do before, or just plain be an idiot: Get a pop.

I responded well to it. I never got the swatter or the belt that often, but when I did, it got instant results and showed me who is in charge. That's up for the parent to decide whether or not they (or someone else) can disipline their kid with physical force, not the Government.

Not to say that there is no truth in the research on that page (Sir Sirius link), but I remember when i was in school, everyone was well behaved, and if you didn't? You got cained and your parents were notified. People respected the caine and knew their limits.These days i look a kids in schools and wonder what went wrong. They are foul mouthed, disobediant and generally badly behaved. It's an odd coincedence that one can observe this taking place around the time that corporal punishment is made illegal.

Have you ever heard the Latin phrase Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc?

I didn't say this. You misquoted.

I'll read more on that link you posted later. My co-worker is yelling about something. What a goon...

[Thunderfire]

Corporal Punishment should only be an option after
other methods have failed. There should also be an
age limit e.g. juveniles-adult only.

[Death from the Sea]

My parents spanked me occasionally as a kid, and threatened me with it frequently. To this day, my parents are the only people on Earth to whom I feel genuine hatred.

I hope you are not serious.

Spanking was used on me until the time when a) my mother couldn't swing the paddle hard enough to hurt me anymore b) there were other alternatives she could use like taking away my privileges etc. c) she broke the paddle on my older brother and he laughed about it.
Seriously though children need to understand that their actions always have consequences. If the parent or person gets pleasure from the paddling then it is not really punishment as much as it is now revenge. Parents should have to notify the school if they don't want their child to recieve corporal punishment, that is how it was done when I was in school.

[Death from the Sea]

My parents spanked me occasionally as a kid, and threatened me with it frequently. To this day, my parents are the only people on Earth to whom I feel genuine hatred.

I hope you are not serious.

Spanking was used on me until the time when a) my mother couldn't swing the paddle hard enough to hurt me anymore b) there were other alternatives she could use like taking away my privileges etc. c) she broke the paddle on my older brother and he laughed about it.
Seriously though children need to understand that their actions always have consequences. If the parent or person gets pleasure from the paddling then it is not really punishment as much as it is now revenge. Parents should have to notify the school if they don't want their child to recieve corporal punishment, that is how it was done when I was in school.

[Lord Pounder]

My parents smacked me when i mis-behaved and to be honest i think i'm a better person for it. Too often these days kids don't know where the line is drawn and frequently cross it when it pleases them. When i was a kid i soon learned where the line was and it stays with me.

However I don't agree with teachers having that right. Teachers do not have that bond with the child nor will a teacher be familure enough with the child to decide where the line is and how far past it a child is.

[Dillon]

The first option, obviously, sometimes the only way to get a child to listen is through corporal punishment, but I wouldn't trust teachers to always have the best judgement.

[Sir Sirius]

Have you ever heard the Latin phrase Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc?

OK, that cool. I'm quite willing to accept that if you can give me another explaination as to why kids misbehave these days.

As I already said to Fenix, more has changed in society then just spanking being banned. Fewer mothers take care of their children full time and the kids are just sent to kinderkartens these days, for example.

Unless i am imagining that?

Probably not, though The kids these days are out of control' is a line used since the Roman empire, civilization hasn't collapsed yet.

[Sea Skimmer]

Banned in schools fine, parents should be allowed to do so without absurd accusations of child abuse. Why where at it lets ban school detentions as well since they violate human rights… then we can all be like Scotland.

[Sir Sirius]

Actualy the snipit of the article you quoted stated that spanking is no more effective than other methods. They only disagree with it because of the negitive notions of spanking.

Spanking is no more effective that other methods and has negative consequences which the other methods lack, therefor spanking, by comparison, is not a very good method. Simple, yes?

Rather subjective at that too.

How so?

Negitive reinforcement (which spanking is) is just as helpful as a behavour modification as positive reinforcement.

True, however I'm not claiming that it doesn't work, I'm just saying that there are BETTER ways of doing things.

To say that negitive reinforcement does not have its place, flys in the face of every trained dog [dog != human child, and dogs can be trained with out resorting to violance as well.], every trained military man [Now where are those stats on domestic abuse and substance abuse in the U.S. Aremed forces... ], and every trained anything ever in history.

Appeal to tradition.