Jedi battle performance in the arena

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-07-02 03:53am

What makes the jedis excellent warriors?
1: Extremely good reflexes (Force precog)
2: Superior mobility (huge and controlled jumps)
3: the best close combat weapon of the galaxy

In the arena battle especially in the second half of it, the jedis massed into one group, did not use their mobility and only used the reversed blaster fire as counter-attacks.
The novelization of RotJ mentioned an old jedi rule: "If your enemy has the upper hand, attack" - and Luke's behavior matched to this. However, in the arena, the jedis were defensive.

I imagine jedis jumping among the droids, twisting their sabres and jumping away before any droid could (effectively) fire on them.
Is there a reason that they did not do theese? Were they too tired or something?

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2003-07-02 11:59am

It is possible, that Dooku was blocking their abilities.

Or to attack, when outnumbered is a really old rule, and Luke only knew about it from Yoda, while the Jedi at Geonosis - well, they and their masters and probabely their masters masters were a lot younger, than the little green troll.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-02 12:01pm

FTeik wrote:It is possible, that Dooku was blocking their abilities.

Or to attack, when outnumbered is a really old rule, and Luke only knew about it from Yoda, while the Jedi at Geonosis - well, they and their masters and probabely their masters masters were a lot younger, than the little green troll.

How the hell do you launch an attack with hundreds of blaster bolts coming at you from all sides. The Jedi COULDN'T go on the attack, The sheer weight of fire forced them into the defensive right off the bat. The scene you're talking about in ROTJ is when Luke leaps over to the sciff that's coming at them full of guards. Luke has time to attack by leaping over and taking on a dozen or so gaurds firing at a slow rate. COmpare that to the arena and you begin to see the difference.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-07-02 12:07pm

Stravo wrote:How the hell do you launch an attack with hundreds of blaster bolts coming at you from all sides.

Simple; you move among your enemy and attack. This battle started at close range; the Jedi needed to move among the droids and Geonosians killing as quickly as possible. Since their enemies were more numerous and equipped exclusively with ranged weapons, getting close to the enemy would give the Jedi their best opportunities to strike as well as shielding them from enemy fire. The droids and Geonosians would be far more likely to lose troops to enemy fire if the Jedi kept themselves mixed among them, while the Jedi would have little to worry about from friendly fire themselves.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-02 12:10pm

Ted C wrote:
Stravo wrote:How the hell do you launch an attack with hundreds of blaster bolts coming at you from all sides.
Simple; you move among your enemy and attack. This battle started at close range; the Jedi needed to move among the droids and Geonosians killing as quickly as possible. Since their enemies were more numerous and equipped exclusively with ranged weapons, getting close to the enemy would give the Jedi their best opportunities to strike as well as shielding them from enemy fire. The droids and Geonosians would be far more likely to lose troops to enemy fire if the Jedi kept themselves mixed among them, while the Jedi would have little to worry about from friendly fire themselves.

How do you MOVE? You have to stand and deflect blaster bolts. The inclose droids got slaughtered but did you notice the secondary lines forming a ring around the Jedi and pouring fire into them? This was a simple matter of massed fire pinning down a mobile foe.

It was also an allusion to the Samurai that were defetaed with the invention of goundpowder in Japan. Ranged weapons against awesome melee fighters usually equals dead melee fighter.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-07-02 12:26pm

As Mike has said innumerous times, by AotC Jedi were much weaker, as Palpatine was sucking their powers. If it had happened in TPM, the Jedi would have destroyed many more droids.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-02 12:37pm

YT300000 wrote:As Mike has said innumerous times, by AotC Jedi were much weaker, as Palpatine was sucking their powers. If it had happened in TPM, the Jedi would have destroyed many more droids.

I never agreed with the view that Palpy was sucking their power in any way. He was clouding their vision in terms of using presceince to see their way clear of problems. The Jedi did themsleves in as Yoda points out, they have become arrogant and self assured in their own power. It is a far more dramatic story telling device to have the Jedi order fall from within, because of their own arrogance and shortssightedness than believe one person could take down an order that's been around for millennia.

The arrogance is clear in several instances, most telling was in TPM. Qui Gon's arrogance in thinking that he had found the Chosen One and no matter what anyone else said this needed to happen. Watch him during the Jedi COuncil. "Sureely you can see that?" heasks of Yoda and teh others incredulously and then promptly casts aside his padawan in order to train Anakin. That's arrogance and placed teh Jedi firmly on the road to destruction NOT Palpatine.

Obi Wan's arrogance in TPM seals tehir fate when he says that he will train Anakin no matter what the council says. He does not see the wisdom in the council's warnings. He sees only his own ability to teach this young kid to be a Jedi. "You WILL be a Jedi, I promise."

Arrogance on the part of the council is also clearly evident.

"Dooku is a Jedi, it's just not in his character." Uhhuh.

Also the fact that instead of punishing Obi Wan for his arrogance instead on training Anakin they simply let him do it.

Palaptine simply made sure that they could not see their way down the path but the Jedi themselves freely chose to walk that path. Their own arrogance sapped their strength and blaming a single Sith lord for this reduction in power is only more arrogance.

One theory that I've been nursing since TPM is that the Force WANTS the Jedi to be purged. Anakin does bring balance to the Force (just not the way the Jedi ever expected) by elimnating the massive light side imbalance triggered by their utter arrogance. It can only do this by promoting the Dark side of its nature. The Jedi's arrogance forced the Force's hand in teh matter, making it rectify this imbalance itself.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-07-02 12:39pm

Stravo wrote:
YT300000 wrote:As Mike has said innumerous times, by AotC Jedi were much weaker, as Palpatine was sucking their powers. If it had happened in TPM, the Jedi would have destroyed many more droids.
I never agreed with the view that Palpy was sucking their power in any way. He was clouding their vision in terms of using presceince to see their way clear of problems. The Jedi did themsleves in as Yoda points out, they have become arrogant and self assured in their own power. It is a far more dramatic story telling device to have the Jedi order fall from within, because of their own arrogance and shortssightedness than believe one person could take down an order that's been around for millennia.

The arrogance is clear in several instances, most telling was in TPM. Qui Gon's arrogance in thinking that he had found the Chosen One and no matter what anyone else said this needed to happen. Watch him during the Jedi COuncil. "Sureely you can see that?" heasks of Yoda and teh others incredulously and then promptly casts aside his padawan in order to train Anakin. That's arrogance and placed teh Jedi firmly on the road to destruction NOT Palpatine.

Obi Wan's arrogance in TPM seals tehir fate when he says that he will train Anakin no matter what the council says. He does not see the wisdom in the council's warnings. He sees only his own ability to teach this young kid to be a Jedi. "You WILL be a Jedi, I promise."

Arrogance on the part of the council is also clearly evident.

"Dooku is a Jedi, it's just not in his character." Uhhuh.

Also the fact that instead of punishing Obi Wan for his arrogance instead on training Anakin they simply let him do it.

Palaptine simply made sure that they could not see their way down the path but the Jedi themselves freely chose to walk that path. Their own arrogance sapped their strength and blaming a single Sith lord for this reduction in power is only more arrogance.

One theory that I've been nursing since TPM is that the Force WANTS the Jedi to be purged. Anakin does bring balance to the Force (just not the way the Jedi ever expected) by elimnating the massive light side imbalance triggered by their utter arrogance. It can only do this by promoting the Dark side of its nature. The Jedi's arrogance forced the Force's hand in teh matter, making it rectify this imbalance itself.

Then maybe it was a combination of arrogance and Palpy.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-07-02 02:06pm

Mostly all true, but the shroud of the Dark Side was there, and it was coming from Palpatine. Windu said explicitly that there ability to use the force had diminished, as a whole (though it didn't really effect Anakin that much, for example hehe).

Their own arrogance sapped their strength and blaming a single Sith lord for this reduction in power is only more arrogance.

I don't see how their arrogance should effect their ability to use the force.

One theory that I've been nursing since TPM is that the Force WANTS the Jedi to be purged. Anakin does bring balance to the Force (just not the way the Jedi ever expected) by elimnating the massive light side imbalance triggered by their utter arrogance. It can only do this by promoting the Dark side of its nature. The Jedi's arrogance forced the Force's hand in teh matter, making it rectify this imbalance itself.

I agree. Anakin *was* the Chosen One. Did it ever occur to the Jedi that balance to the force ... MEANT EXACTLY WHAT IT SOUNDED LIKE?

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-07-02 02:09pm

Stravo wrote:How do you MOVE? You have to stand and deflect blaster bolts. The inclose droids got slaughtered but did you notice the secondary lines forming a ring around the Jedi and pouring fire into them? This was a simple matter of massed fire pinning down a mobile foe.

No, you do not have. It was clearly demonstrated by Mace Windu when he deflected shots while he was falling / jumping. In TPM they showed their true mobility. I think only very few of the droids could track them during a jump and theese shots could have been deflected from the air.

Also, I do not think it was the sith. Hiding the future or a person is one thing but physically slowing down dozens or hundreds of jedis simoultaneously is an other. Most likely Dooku would have been able to stop the jedis one after another but all of them simoultaneously ... I don't think so.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-02 02:13pm

Vympel wrote:Mostly all true, but the shroud of the Dark Side was there, and it was coming from Palpatine. Windu said explicitly that there ability to use the force had diminished, as a whole (though it didn't really effect Anakin that much, for example hehe).

Their own arrogance sapped their strength and blaming a single Sith lord for this reduction in power is only more arrogance.
I don't see how their arrogance should effect their ability to use the force.

They were no longer using the Force from a calm state. Think about Yoda's training. A Jedi must be serious, calm and at peace. A Jedi smiling in combat and making "hee yaw" sounds in combat is most definately NOT calm or at peace. Compare to the masters: Windu is not doing anything flashy or ridiculous, he is calm cool and womping ass. The Jedi are in essence out of tune with the Force.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-07-02 02:17pm

Stravo wrote:How do you MOVE? You have to stand and deflect blaster bolts.

You mean that we've never observed a Jedi blocking a blaster bolt on the run?

Stravo wrote:The inclose droids got slaughtered but did you notice the secondary lines forming a ring around the Jedi and pouring fire into them? This was a simple matter of massed fire pinning down a mobile foe.

The Jedi sacrificed any advantage they might have had when they all jumped down into the Geonosian arena to make targets of themselves.

Stravo wrote:It was also an allusion to the Samurai that were defetaed with the invention of goundpowder in Japan. Ranged weapons against awesome melee fighters usually equals dead melee fighter.

Except that a Samurai couldn't bounce bullets back at the people shooting them.

In all fairness, though, there were probably so many droids available that the Jedi would have been defeated sooner or later no matter how well they fought. Sheer exhaustion and bad luck would have overwhelmed them in time, but they didn't perform as well as they could have if they'd used better tactics.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-02 02:27pm

I agree Ted, it was stupid or more likely arrogance. Even from Windu when Dooku says that they are surrounded.

"I don't think so." You KNOW that line needed to have Motherfucker tacked on at the end.

Only an arrogant commander would bring his fighting force into the center of an enemy stronghold with only confidence in their fighting ability as their main strategy.

Arrogance.

Its all throughout AOTC.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-07-02 02:28pm

(Side note:

Vympel wrote:Mostly all true, but the shroud of the Dark Side was there, and it was coming from Palpatine.

Are you sure? I think the rising of the dark side was the result of the act of the people throughout the galaxy, and this rising made Palpy stronger.)

Vympel wrote:Windu said explicitly that there ability to use the force had diminished, as a whole (though it didn't really effect Anakin that much, for example hehe).

Otherwise Anakin would have hurted his balls seriously.

Neither it did Obi Van (in Kamino) nor Mace Windu. Needless to mention that jedi who visited Dooku in the arena. (He died but his mobility was not affected.)

Vympel wrote:]I agree. Anakin *was* the Chosen One. Did it ever occur to the Jedi that balance to the force ... MEANT EXACTLY WHAT IT SOUNDED LIKE?

I disagrre. If the Force would have been "betrayed" them, they wouldn't be able to deflect blasts at all.

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-07-02 02:31pm

Stravo wrote:
Vympel wrote:Mostly all true, but the shroud of the Dark Side was there, and it was coming from Palpatine. Windu said explicitly that there ability to use the force had diminished, as a whole (though it didn't really effect Anakin that much, for example hehe).

Their own arrogance sapped their strength and blaming a single Sith lord for this reduction in power is only more arrogance.
I don't see how their arrogance should effect their ability to use the force.
They were no longer using the Force from a calm state. Think about Yoda's training. A Jedi must be serious, calm and at peace. A Jedi smiling in combat and making "hee yaw" sounds in combat is most definately NOT calm or at peace. Compare to the masters: Windu is not doing anything flashy or ridiculous, he is calm cool and womping ass. The Jedi are in essence out of tune with the Force.

I don't think the arena is a good example for saying that the entire jedi order is arrogant.

Due to the urgency of Geonosis there was no time to recall the experienced jedi knights that were spread thinly across the galaxy trying to maintain the Republic. A large portion of the jedi there were padawans not completly trained taken directly from Coruscant.

It's possible Geonosis may have been the first time for many of them to have experienced live combat.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-07-02 02:37pm

Ted C wrote:The Jedi sacrificed any advantage they might have had when they all jumped down into the Geonosian arena to make targets of themselves.

... and decided to remain in place. I agree.
Was it arrogance?

Not even Obi Van or Mace Windu used the mobility they showed previously. Is it possible that GL run out of budget for more special effects?

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-07-02 02:42pm

Wild Karrde wrote:It's possible Geonosis may have been the first time for many of them to have experienced live combat.

While I canot remember seeing any padawan hair style, it is possibly true. However, Luke used his mobility on Bespin, when he seemed to be less trained than the jedis in the arena. So I doubt that this would be the reason of their "poor" performance.

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-07-02 02:50pm

vakundok wrote:
Wild Karrde wrote:It's possible Geonosis may have been the first time for many of them to have experienced live combat.
While I canot remember seeing any padawan hair style, it is possibly true. However, Luke used his mobility on Bespin, when he seemed to be less trained than the jedis in the arena. So I doubt that this would be the reason of their "poor" performance.

Luke didn't have the darkside diminishing all his force abilities, nor did he have thousands of unflinching battle droids marching at him in unending waves while simultaneously being shot at from all angles by heavy automatic blaster fire.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-07-02 02:58pm

Wild Karrde wrote:Luke didn't have the darkside diminishing all his force abilities

Do you mean that they were able to deflect shots and did those rare jumps in the arena withut the Force?

Wild Karrde wrote:nor did he have thousands of unflinching battle droids marching at him in unending waves while simultaneously being shot at from all angles by heavy automatic blaster fire.

Actually it is a reason to move (jump away) quickly, not a reason not to move.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-07-02 02:59pm

vakundok wrote:
Ted C wrote:The Jedi sacrificed any advantage they might have had when they all jumped down into the Geonosian arena to make targets of themselves.
... and decided to remain in place. I agree.
Was it arrogance?

Ignorance is just as likely. The Dark Side was clouding their clairvoyance and precognition, so they probably had no idea just how many droids the Separatists could throw at them. Furthermore, Jedi aren't soldiers: they're policemen, investigators, and diplomats. They're formidable individuals, but it's obvious that very few of them have any real military knowledge (let alone experience). They were unprepared for the situation that developed on Geonosis.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-07-02 07:33pm

Ted C wrote:Furthermore, Jedi aren't soldiers: they're policemen, investigators, and diplomats. They're formidable individuals, but it's obvious that very few of them have any real military knowledge (let alone experience). They were unprepared for the situation that developed on Geonosis.

Isn't it just peachy that GL has henceforth decreed the Jedi are to be the Generals in the Clone Wars?

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-07-02 07:56pm

vakundok wrote:
Wild Karrde wrote:Luke didn't have the darkside diminishing all his force abilities
Do you mean that they were able to deflect shots and did those rare jumps in the arena withut the Force?
Wild Karrde wrote:nor did he have thousands of unflinching battle droids marching at him in unending waves while simultaneously being shot at from all angles by heavy automatic blaster fire.
Actually it is a reason to move (jump away) quickly, not a reason not to move.

Diminished!=gone.

I also just watched the battle again, out of the entire battle two jedi do a total of three jumps; Mace twice and the other one by the jedi that went after Dooku. Both were on the jedi council.

In fact out of the entire movie the only ones to harness the force in full were:

A.Users of the darkside. (Dooku, Anakin to a slight degree)

or

B.Lightsiders that were well disiplined, very strong in the force, and/or jedi masters on the council.

As for the jedi not moving in the arena, there was no place for them to go. There were just to many droids to the point that the jedi simply couldn't have gone anywhere without being cut down.

Clone Sergeant · Post by **Clone Sergeant** » 2003-07-02 08:55pm

Wild Karrde wrote:It's possible Geonosis may have been the first time for many of them to have experienced live combat.

That is very likely the case. Especially for this unfortunate padawan: link

He couldn't have been more than 13-14 years old.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-07-02 09:43pm

Wild Karrde wrote:
vakundok wrote:
Wild Karrde wrote:It's possible Geonosis may have been the first time for many of them to have experienced live combat.
While I canot remember seeing any padawan hair style, it is possibly true. However, Luke used his mobility on Bespin, when he seemed to be less trained than the jedis in the arena. So I doubt that this would be the reason of their "poor" performance.
Luke didn't have the darkside diminishing all his force abilities, nor did he have thousands of unflinching battle droids marching at him in unending waves while simultaneously being shot at from all angles by heavy automatic blaster fire.

Luke didn't have the dark side diminishing his abilities? Why not? Palpatine was only getting stronger throughout the story arc. Vader was there as well. If anything, Luke's abilities should have been even weaker.

Wild Karrde · Post by **Wild Karrde** » 2003-07-02 10:27pm

Howedar wrote:Luke didn't have the dark side diminishing his abilities? Why not? Palpatine was only getting stronger throughout the story arc. Vader was there as well. If anything, Luke's abilities should have been even weaker.

Possibly, although very doubtful. Nothing in the OT even remotely suggest this is the case.

For example Luke showed no signs of diminished force powers in TESB when he had the vison of Han and Leia at Cloud City, lightyears away and a couple of days before they got there.

He was also holding his own quite well against Vader in TESB and ROTJ.

It's also possible that Luke, being the son of the chosen one, had something that negated the darkside's diminishing powers.