Illegal immigrants 1 step closer to CA driver's license

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-07-02 02:06pm

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=33364

I am amazed. I am absolutely horrified, stupefied that at this time in history, when more than ever we need to consider the security of our country and our borders, and when we need to be cracking down on illegal immigration as one of the means by which terrorists and other criminals have entered this country, we have something like this going on.

A salient fact of this is the following:

In a party-line vote of 11-5, Democrats passed the bill over GOP opposition.

I don't approve of everything David Horowitz says; he's a little too extreme in some of his positions, but one thing he said recently that I agree with completely is "I am a firm believer in the two-party system. I find it extremely worrying, therefore, that one party can no longer be trusted with the nation's security."

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-07-02 02:19pm

This is ridiculous. "Oh, yeah, so they're not legal here, we should give them valid IDs." *sigh*

Gambler · Post by **Gambler** » 2003-07-02 02:35pm

I realy don't see what your problem with this is. If you are concerned about security I would see this as an improvement in security rather then a breach:

According to the Times report, Cedillo also mentioned the licensing of illegal aliens would help law enforcement keep track of drivers in criminal cases because their photos, thumbprints and addresses would be recorded.

So how is having their photos, thumbprints and adresses not an improvement in security?

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-07-02 02:38pm

How about "We have no way to MAKE these illegals register for a driver's license?"

If they're going to be forced to get a driver's license, they might as well be forced to obtain a passport or US citizenship. Either way, they're unregistered as it stands, and they don't exist in databases. How do you propose to force them to register?

Gambler · Post by **Gambler** » 2003-07-02 02:55pm

Crayz9000 wrote:How about "We have no way to MAKE these illegals register for a driver's license?"

If they're going to be forced to get a driver's license, they might as well be forced to obtain a passport or US citizenship. Either way, they're unregistered as it stands, and they don't exist in databases. How do you propose to force them to register?

I would say it's not about forcing them to register but to give them an incentive to register and making the streets a safer place.

Maybe it's not a good idea after all, I have heard your drivers license isn't very difficult to obtain because the exams are to ease compared with europe. So more people with useless licenses won't reduce the number of accidents.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-07-02 02:57pm

Gambler wrote:I realy don't see what your problem with this is. If you are concerned about security I would see this as an improvement in security rather then a breach:
According to the Times report, Cedillo also mentioned the licensing of illegal aliens would help law enforcement keep track of drivers in criminal cases because their photos, thumbprints and addresses would be recorded.
So how is having their photos, thumbprints and adresses not an improvement in security?

Illegal aliens are not supposed to be here. Has the fact that they are illegal aliens made no impression on you? It is the job of our immigration and naturalization service, and the border patrol to keep them out, or failing that to deport them. Has it completely escaped your notice that by issuing them a driver's license, the government of California will be tacitly approving their stay here?

I honestly don't know what to say to someone like you. You truly leave me at a loss for words. I mean, really, you see a proposal like this as a good thing, a supposed improvement in security. It never even occurs to you that illegal aliens should be deported for coming here illegally. I just don't understand that mindset. I never will. If we're going to let them stay, give them driver's licenses, allow them in-state tuition at our universities, give them taxpayer-funded medical care, why even bother to have a border patrol? Why have an INS? Why make other immigrants go through this whole process of applying for visas and green cards and the like? Let's just let everybody in.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-07-02 02:59pm

Gambler wrote: I would say it's not about forcing them to register but to give them an incentive to register and making the streets a safer place.

The government can do that by getting off its collective ass, and starting to enforce our immigration laws, and rounding up the illegals and sending them back where they came from. If they are not here, they won't be causing accidents on our highways, among other things.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-02 03:02pm

Perinquus wrote:
Gambler wrote: I would say it's not about forcing them to register but to give them an incentive to register and making the streets a safer place.
The government can do that by getting off its collective ass, and starting to enforce our immigration laws, and rounding up the illegals and sending them back where they came from. If they are not here, they won't be causing accidents on our highways, among other things.

But where would the rich white folks get theri cheap immigrant maids and janitors from??? Think of the children - where will those cheap nannies come from if we take away the illegals?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-07-02 06:50pm

If they're illegal immigrants, then get them the fuck out of my country. I'm not seeing a big issue here.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-07-02 06:52pm

California needs Arnold and a senate and house stacked in his favor right now.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-02 06:55pm

The government can do that by getting off its collective ass, and starting to enforce our immigration laws, and rounding up the illegals and sending them back where they came from. If they are not here, they won't be causing accidents on our highways, among other things.

Ah, but that approach lacks something important: it does not provide a way for Democrats to receive more votes.

Honestly, immigration is an area where I'm pretty liberal. I would advocate completely open borders if it wasn't for this fucking welfare state that we have.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-07-02 07:11pm

Durran Korr wrote:
The government can do that by getting off its collective ass, and starting to enforce our immigration laws, and rounding up the illegals and sending them back where they came from. If they are not here, they won't be causing accidents on our highways, among other things.
Ah, but that approach lacks something important: it does not provide a way for Democrats to receive more votes.

Honestly, immigration is an area where I'm pretty liberal. I would advocate completely open borders if it wasn't for this fucking welfare state that we have.

I wouldn't. Think about it. There really are undesirables out there. That's why we are supposed to have border controls. You don't want to let in just everybody. Even leaving aside the issue of welfare, we would want to keep out terrorists like the 9/11 hijackers, who were here illegally. We also would want to keep out other countries' regular criminals. Take Enrique Sosa Alvarez as just one example. He kidnapped a 9-year-old girl, from her San Jose, California home in broad daylight and raped her repeatedly over three days before he let her go. The poor kid will probably be an emotional and psychological basket case for the rest of her life. And Alvarez was an illegal alien. Alvarez also went by the name David Montiel Cruz, and has previously been convicted in this country of auto theft. Last I heard, they hadn't managed to identify which country he came from, so there was no info. yet on whether or not he had a record in his native land, but given his criminal behavior, odds are he did.

We have closed borders because we want to keep shitbags like him out of our country. We have enough trouble dealing with our homegrown human filth. We certainly don't need to be handling imports as well. Border conrols are a necessary and indispensible thing for a prosperous country, because there is human vermin out there that behave just like rats and cockroaches and other animal vermin - they are drawn to comfortable places where decent people want to live. We need to start keeping them out, not giving them benefits.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-02 07:17pm

I shouldn't have said completely open borders. I think that anyone who wants to enter this country should be able to do so (of course, this is assuming there is no welfare state; open immigration plus welfare state is fucking nuts), provided he is not a criminal, or cannot be allowed in for reasons of national security.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-07-02 07:20pm

Ah, but that approach lacks something important: it does not provide a way for Democrats to receive more votes.

Flawed analysis, imo. Many latinos (who constitute the majority of illegal immigrants) are conservative on social issues, and fairly conservative financially (pro big business, pro free market, pro welfare). Bush has been making many efforts to appeal to this bloc of voters.

Furthermore, illegal immigrants are the sweet buttercups of, guess what: business. Under-the-table job offers for illegals are common in corporate America, especially in physical work sectors such as construction, and also your typical fast food joints.

I am NOT claiming that Democrats have made satisfactory efforts to lessen the problem. Some liberal Democrats could be looking at it from a "bleeding heart" perspective, passing legislation out of sympathy. However, this obviously does more harm than good; we don't need even easier methods and incentives for people (some being potentially criminal) to enter this country unaccounted for.

If the corporations don't want to go through the trouble of moving to another country to hire cheap sweatshop labour, they can easily hire illegals under the table, pay them shit wages, and get the best benefits of 3rd world. It's simply yet another dark side of capitalism which must be corrected.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-07-02 07:23pm

Oh, and I forgot, there is another great example of how our lax enforcement of our immigration laws is coming around to bite us in the ass.

Here in Norfolk, we are starting to see the arrival of MS-13. This is Mara Salvatrucha XIII.

MARA - short for Maravillosa - beautiful

SALVA - short for El Salvador

TRUCHA - look out we are the baddest

XIII - southern part of California where the gang got started.

These assholes are grade A, number one, prime shitbags. They are ruthless, organized, and totally unafraid of the police. Most of them are El Salvadoran or Honduran, many if not most are illegal aliens, and many have experience in the civil wars they were fighting down there.

When they moved into northern Virginia, there was a marked increase in the number of malicious woundings and assaults, and 4 new shootings were linked to the gang. It was reported that some of the California based honchos came to northern Virginia to elevate the criminal status of the local chapter, and they were upset because a police officer hadn't been killed.

They like to lure police into ambuses and kill them, and they are responsible for about a dozen law enforcement deaths on the east coast over the last five years. Now they are starting to show up in my city!

They do not fucking belong here!

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-02 07:28pm

Flawed analysis, imo. Many latinos (who constitute the majority of illegal immigrants) are conservative on social issues, and fairly conservative financially (pro big business, pro free market, pro welfare). Bush has been making many efforts to appeal to this bloc of voters.

Point, the Cuban voting bloc is especially conservative. But you can bet that if welfare was offered to illegal immigrants in legislation spearheaded by Democrats, immigrants would be voting democratic.

Furthermore, illegal immigrants are the sweet buttercups of, guess what: business. Under-the-table job offers for illegals are common in corporate America, especially in physical work sectors such as construction, and also your typical fast food joints.

Point again, but these are mutually beneficial business deals. The immigrant gets a job far better than anything he could get at home, and the employer gets an employee who makes less than his native countrymen do on welfare.

I am NOT claiming that Democrats have made satisfactory efforts to lessen the problem. Some liberal Democrats could be looking at it from a "bleeding heart" perspective, passing legislation out of sympathy. However, this obviously does more harm than good; we don't need even easier methods and incentives for people (some being potentially criminal) to enter this country unaccounted for.

Agreed, again.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-07-02 07:28pm

Perinquus wrote: They do not fucking belong here!

I agree. Along our borders there is a growing, and large enough as it is, occurance of violence against US citizens perpetrated by illegals crossing into the country.

The prime solution comes from two choices, IMO:

1) Border militia
2) Bringing a ton of troops home and station them at the southern border

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-02 07:30pm

The problem is, as long as America remains America, the immigrants will keep flowing in, and the government won't be able to stop them with great success any more than they can stop drugs from getting into this country.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-07-02 07:36pm

Point, the Cuban voting bloc is especially conservative. But you can bet that if welfare was offered to illegal immigrants in legislation spearheaded by Democrats, immigrants would be voting democratic.

Would you deny that Bush is offering incentives to illegals? He has not even made (from my recollections) any serious effort to curb the problem. His buddy-buddy thing going on with Vicente Fox and all the winking that comes with it doesn't help, either.

Point again, but these are mutually beneficial business deals. The immigrant gets a job far better than anything he could get at home, and the employer gets an employee who makes less than his native countrymen do on welfare.

Fully beneficial to big business, some benefits (but boils down to exploitation) for illegals, but detrimental the rest of the country. Encouraging more people to come over at the expense of national security and the financial strain on social programs is one of the reasons why I despise bug business.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-02 07:42pm

Would you deny that Bush is offering incentives to illegals? He has not even made (from my recollections) any serious effort to curb the problem. His buddy-buddy thing going on with Vicente Fox and all the winking that comes with it doesn't help, either.

That would be a no. Agreed, again.

Fully beneficial to big business, some benefits (but boils down to exploitation) for illegals, but detrimental the rest of the country. Encouraging more people to come over at the expense of national security and the financial strain on social programs is one of the reasons why I despise bug business.

Tell a day laborer he's being exploited and he'll laugh at you and tell you how much better he has it here than his home country.

Illegal immigration is certainly not detrimental to the rest of the country for anything other than the national security risk and the strain on social programs. It keeps the prices of goods down considerably.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-07-02 07:47pm

Hamel wrote: Would you deny that Bush is offering incentives to illegals? He has not even made (from my recollections) any serious effort to curb the problem. His buddy-buddy thing going on with Vicente Fox and all the winking that comes with it doesn't help, either.

I am very, very disappointed in Bush in this regard. One might reasonably ask, what is the poing of electing a Republican when he is going to behave just like a Democrat? This is a very serious issue, and I am disgusted beyond words that the president and his administration are not only doing nothing about it, but they seem to be becoming part of the problem. Bush, in 2002, was squarely behind an extension of the 1986 illegal immigration amnesty signed into law by his father.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-07-02 07:54pm

Tell a day laborer he's being exploited and he'll laugh at you and tell you how much better he has it here than his home country.

Undeniably he has it better than he did in the land of his birth. However, he is still exploited. Because these deals are not taking place through legal methods, illegals are paid less than an American working the same job. This is definately exploitation. "We keep quiet about your legal status and, in return, you agree to take poor wages." Once the illegal is in that position, he is being exploited. I don't see any other way of looking at it.

Illegal immigration is certainly not detrimental to the rest of the country for anything other than the national security risk and the strain on social programs. It keeps the prices of goods down considerably.

Why appeal to the market? Not only do illegals bring the problems already covered, they bring criminals with them. MANY criminals. More hard drugs, more black market weaponry, and other things common in the 3rd world.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-02 08:00pm

Durran Korr wrote:The problem is, as long as America remains America, the immigrants will keep flowing in.

Funny thing, back in the 1900s, people got sent back home to
Europe if they had infectious diseases...now with this flood of
mexicans, TB is making a comeback, after we had virtually
wiped it out decades ago..

Shoot anyone who tries to cross the border after a warning shot
and call it a day.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-07-02 09:15pm

Gambler wrote:I realy don't see what your problem with this is. If you are concerned about security I would see this as an improvement in security rather then a breach:
According to the Times report, Cedillo also mentioned the licensing of illegal aliens would help law enforcement keep track of drivers in criminal cases because their photos, thumbprints and addresses would be recorded.
So how is having their photos, thumbprints and adresses not an improvement in security?

The first thing wrong with this picture is that this process validates illegal immigration. It gives it tacit approval. "Go ahead, sneak across the border without background checks of any kind! Here, will give you a card -- see? It's cool!" The only thing that would make the farce complete would be to have these cards issued with a Certificate of Illegality on INS stationery and a postcard with a gaggle of grinning Border Patrol officers.

To address the security question, illegal immigrants are still citizens of whatever country they illegally emigrate from, which means that there's no real reason why they can't do something heinous and just pack it up and go home afterward. Nothing ties them specifically to this country -- no Social Security number, no taxes, no credit.

The card really doesn't serve much of a purpose that I can see, except to track them while they're here and if we're talking about using it for security purposes, that's practically useless, since a terrorist isn't likely to go around flashing his Illegal Alien ID in the same country he just blew people up in.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-02 11:09pm

Undeniably he has it better than he did in the land of his birth. However, he is still exploited. Because these deals are not taking place through legal methods, illegals are paid less than an American working the same job. This is definately exploitation. "We keep quiet about your legal status and, in return, you agree to take poor wages." Once the illegal is in that position, he is being exploited. I don't see any other way of looking at it.

He's not being exploited. He's in a position where the value of his labor is very low, and cannot yet earn a high wage. Goods and services are worth only what someone else is willing to pay for them, and labor is no exception. It's hardly a permanent condition, in any case, and that's what matters. If illegal immigrants were doomed to be stuck in their position forever, yes, that would be a problem.

Why appeal to the market? Not only do illegals bring the problems already covered, they bring criminals with them. MANY criminals. More hard drugs, more black market weaponry, and other things common in the 3rd world.

I'm not appealing to the market, I'm appealing to fact. Low prices keep the people happy, and as long as illegal immigrants produce low prices of goods, they will continue to enter.

Funny thing, back in the 1900s, people got sent back home to
Europe if they had infectious diseases...now with this flood of
mexicans, TB is making a comeback, after we had virtually
wiped it out decades ago..

Controlling maritime immigration is quite a bit easier than making sure no immigrants cross over a very large border.