Martin Sheen is a complete idiot.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-07-02 10:25pm

Thay are still not as numerous as the leftist celebs, nor are they generally nearly as outspoken. I can't remember ever hearing that a conservative celebrity ever spoke before the national press club like Tim Robbins, nor have I heard of any taking out full page ads in the New York Times like Sean Penn. If they leftist celebrities are in the news more often for the things they say, it is because they shoot their mouths off publicly far more often.

Just because Hollywood isn't 50/50 liberal/conservative doesn't mean much. Conservatives still have a large presence and influence in hollywood. I still contend that the media and pundits refuse to bring ridiculous RW quotes to the mainstream so they can be scrutinized by most of America.

This is what it feels like trying to get through to you. Why is it that no matter how many times I say it, you just can't seem to get your brain around the concept that what the conservative celebrities say does not offend the sensibilities of the American people the way the liberal celebs do. Let me break it on down for you. A majority of Americans support the President; his approval rating remains high. Therefore, who is more likely to generate a backlash with their comments, a celebrity who speaks out in support of the issues that the president is advocating and against his critics, or the celebrities who are not only against the president, but also speak of him hatefully, and spout the kind of nonsense that Sheen just said?

Why do you find this so hard to understand?

What part of THIS don't YOU understand? The fact that you have an organized movement against leftist celebs DOES NOT IN ANY FUCKING WAY, SHAPE OR FORM CHANGE THE FACT THAT THERE IS A DOUBLE STANDARD! If you think that appealing to popularity is a good counter to my argument, you are wrong.

An example:

Here, we have a 5th grade class. A certain student makes a comment that is stupid, and uproar ensues. A different student makes a racist comment (this is referring to Nugent), but the students, being the fucking morons that they are, apply the blind eye, and say nothing of it. This is an example of a double standard. The situation we are debating about is also a double standard.

You are arguing that Sheen should be held accountable for what he said. I HAVE ALREADY GIVEN AGREEMENT ON THIS. EVERYONE must be held accountable, and these rightwing celebrities are not.

Remember, the attitudes of Americans don't change the fact that conservative celebrities are not held to the same standards.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-07-02 10:29pm

The racist comments of Nugent, which he suffered no national and social indignation for

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-07-02 10:32pm

Hamel wrote:
Thay are still not as numerous as the leftist celebs, nor are they generally nearly as outspoken. I can't remember ever hearing that a conservative celebrity ever spoke before the national press club like Tim Robbins, nor have I heard of any taking out full page ads in the New York Times like Sean Penn. If they leftist celebrities are in the news more often for the things they say, it is because they shoot their mouths off publicly far more often.
Just because Hollywood isn't 50/50 liberal/conservative doesn't mean much. Conservatives still have a large presence and influence in hollywood. I still contend that the media and pundits refuse to bring ridiculous RW quotes to the mainstream so they can be scrutinized by most of America.

The ratio of right to left really is irrelevant here -- the point he's trying to make is not one of numbers, but one of volume. LW celebs do tend to be more politically activist, on average, than RW celebs, as far as I can tell.

This is what it feels like trying to get through to you. Why is it that no matter how many times I say it, you just can't seem to get your brain around the concept that what the conservative celebrities say does not offend the sensibilities of the American people the way the liberal celebs do. Let me break it on down for you. A majority of Americans support the President; his approval rating remains high. Therefore, who is more likely to generate a backlash with their comments, a celebrity who speaks out in support of the issues that the president is advocating and against his critics, or the celebrities who are not only against the president, but also speak of him hatefully, and spout the kind of nonsense that Sheen just said?

Why do you find this so hard to understand?
What part of THIS don't YOU understand? The fact that you have an organized movement against leftist celebs DOES NOT IN ANY FUCKING WAY, SHAPE OR FORM CHANGE THE FACT THAT THERE IS A DOUBLE STANDARD! If you think that appealing to popularity is a good counter to my argument, you are wrong.

You have yet to demonstrate anything supporting your claim of a double-standard. You've invented a coverup to keep stupid RW celeb quotes out of the media, but where's your evidence that there are any of these quotes?

An example:

Here, we have a 5th grade class. A certain student makes a comment that is stupid, and uproar ensues. A different student makes a racist comment (this is referring to Nugent), but the students, being the fucking morons that they are, apply the blind eye, and say nothing of it. This is an example of a double standard. The situation we are debating about is also a double standard.

You are arguing that Sheen should be held accountable for what he said. I HAVE ALREADY GIVEN AGREEMENT ON THIS. EVERYONE must be held accountable, and these rightwing celebrities are not.
But you have yet to show anything for them to be held accountable for!

Remember, the attitudes of Americans don't change the fact that conservative celebrities are not held to the same standards.

The attitudes of Americans are what determine the standard! Good god, are you feeling all right?

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-07-02 10:35pm

The attitudes of Americans are what determine the standard! Good god, are you feeling all right?

If you want to rely on this argument, then there's no way for me to rebuke that, so I'm conceeding. To both of you.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-07-02 10:37pm

People, calm down.

It's the MEDIA that's shoving this shit down our throats.

Face it. Would we even know the Sheen said this if the media didn't put it on TV?

That's why I don't watch the news for the most part. I watch Letterman and Leno cause the monologues are funny, and I check Yahoo News. That's it.

Why?

Because now a-days, the media is just looking for ratings. Case in point, the micheal jackson specials. I know the guys fucked up, but I don't want to watch it on TV.

Long gone are the days of Walter Croncite and news with integrity. It went out the window with a sweeps week.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-07-02 10:38pm

Hamel wrote:The racist comments of Nugent, which he suffered no national and social indignation for

He appears to have suffered a bit of indignation for it right off the bat -- and I'm sure if I look, I'll find national coverage of the incident. I find it interesting, as well, that the reporter just casually tossed in Nugent's membership on the board of the NRA. Is his relationship with the National Rifle Association in some way relevant to his stupid comments?

A Google search using the terms, "Nugent" AND "Racist" returns 2,210 results. Obviously, if there's a Right-Wing Celebrity Media Protection Machine(tm), it's desperately in need of repair.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-07-02 10:42pm

Solauren wrote:Long gone are the days of Walter Croncite and news with integrity. It went out the window with a sweeps week.

I think it's time to bring that kind of press back.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-07-02 10:50pm

Okay, I couldn't find anything else besides Nugent's comments, and I based my whole argument on what seems to be a false assumption, so I give up

"YUO WIN!!!11"

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-07-02 10:54pm

He's still standing, get the bats!

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-07-02 11:04pm

Hamel wrote: Just because Hollywood isn't 50/50 liberal/conservative doesn't mean much. Conservatives still have a large presence and influence in hollywood. I still contend that the media and pundits refuse to bring ridiculous RW quotes to the mainstream so they can be scrutinized by most of America.

Newsflash. It isn't the pundits who are bringing ridiculous liberal quotes to the media, the left wing liberal celebs are doing it themselves. They're spouoting off on concert stages in front of huge audiences, or getting up and having their comments broadcast by the National Press Club, or taking out full page ads in the NY Times.

Hamel wrote: What part of THIS don't YOU understand? The fact that you have an organized movement against leftist celebs DOES NOT IN ANY FUCKING WAY, SHAPE OR FORM CHANGE THE FACT THAT THERE IS A DOUBLE STANDARD! If you think that appealing to popularity is a good counter to my argument, you are wrong.

This isn't just an appeal to popularity. These people have their opinions put out all over the country because they are famous celebrities. What the hell do you think fame is? It is popularity. Mass popularity. Popularity is at the very heart of the issue. These celebrities have the careers they have because of their popularity. Their careers are positively built on popularity. They have access to these public fora they use to sound off because of their popularity. And when they say things that piss Americans off in large numbers, it damages their popularity.

The conservative celebrities are not saying things to piss people of so much, so they are not damaging their popularity with the American people, hence, no corresponding outrage over their comments. Jesus! This is not rocket science.

Hamel wrote: Here, we have a 5th grade class. A certain student makes a comment that is stupid, and uproar ensues. A different student makes a racist comment (this is referring to Nugent), but the students, being the fucking morons that they are, apply the blind eye, and say nothing of it. This is an example of a double standard. The situation we are debating about is also a double standard.

You are arguing that Sheen should be held accountable for what he said. I HAVE ALREADY GIVEN AGREEMENT ON THIS. EVERYONE must be held accountable, and these rightwing celebrities are not.

Remember, the attitudes of Americans don't change the fact that conservative celebrities are not held to the same standards.

Let's take a look at this. Nugent makes his remarks, using the words "g----" and "n-----" on live radio. According to the article you cited, he "was apparently trying to make the point that the terms were just words and shouldn't offend anyone. But he missed the mark, listeners and Fox personnel agreed." That hardly sounds like he got away clean and people were willing to "say nothing of it".

Reading on further, I note that "Rick Lewis and Michael Floorwax, longtime Nugent supporters and friends, were taken aback when Nugent went on his rant and took him to task on the air." Wow, that sounds like more negative reaction. And your point is that Nugent can say this and nobody cares?

And further on, the article says "Eric Sung, chapter president of the Organization of Chinese Americans, said that Nugent's words still cut deep." Still more negative reaction.

And further on "The phone lines lit up with outraged listeners." More negative reaction. You point was what again?

Further on "One fan took him to task for the terms on Nugent's Web site..." More negative reaction.

And the last paragraph of the article says: "Lewis and Floorwax were adamant in their opposition to Nugent's views. 'Sometimes all (listeners) remember is the offensive part and relate it to you because it was on your show,' Lewis said." Clearly the DJs are worried about a negative backlash against their show resulting from their comments.

And from this you deduce that right wingers can say anything they want and no one cares? Excuse me; I'm confused.

If you are upset that Nugent's comments don't generate the kind of public wave that Martin Sheen's do, well DUH! Let's be frank here. Nugent is a has-been rocker from the 70s who hasn't put out a new album in better than 20 years. Or if he has, it never went anywhere. Hell, they don't even play his stuff on the local classic rock station where I live. I can't remember the last time I heard one of his songs on the radio. Why would you expect ANYTHING he has to say to generate the kind of publicity that famous actors starring in highly rated, currently running shows, and recent successful movies can generate when they speak out?

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-07-02 11:07pm

Hmmm... I seem to have delivered my final blow after the battle was all over.

Drat!

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-07-02 11:08pm

Perinquus wrote:Hmmm... I seem to have delivered my final blow after the battle was all over.

Drat!

It's bad sport to beat the dead violinist

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-07-02 11:17pm

Hamel wrote:
Perinquus wrote:Hmmm... I seem to have delivered my final blow after the battle was all over.

Drat!
It's bad sport to beat the dead violinist

But it is so fun!

Cripes, why did I have to have company while this debate was going on?!

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-07-02 11:19pm

Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:
Solauren wrote:Long gone are the days of Walter Croncite and news with integrity. It went out the window with a sweeps week.
I think it's time to bring that kind of press back.

SECONDED!!!

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-07-02 11:22pm

Hamel wrote:
Ah, yes, Martin Sheen is a great source for intelligent political commentary. Oy...
You can't find reasonable political discourse anywhere these days.

I would say that I agree with you, although Hollywood is the last place I would consider looking.

BTW, who wasn't expecting a load of crap like this from Sheen? Ever since he threatened to move to Canada if we went to war (and didn't carry through), I have lost all respect for him.
I'd like to see a real quote of him saying this. People falsely attributed a similar comment to Alec Baldwin.

Quite possible this is simply rumor, if I find any hard proof, I'll post it pronto.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-07-02 11:53pm

Now that this debate's over, It's time for tiny nitpicks!

I notice your list includes people like Dave Thomas, and Robert Stack, who are dead

You must be thinking of the dead guy from Wendy's. Perhaps the list was referring to This Dave Thomas.

As for Sheen, he should save the prosecution stuff until he is being forced out of his home and sent to Guantanamo Bay.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-07-02 11:55pm

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:Now that this debate's over, It's time for tiny nitpicks!

I notice your list includes people like Dave Thomas, and Robert Stack, who are dead

You must be thinking of the dead guy from Wendy's. Perhaps the list was referring to This Dave Thomas.

I think the dead one's got a livelier career.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-07-02 11:57pm

jegs2 wrote:Actors are good at entertaining us. I would recommend that they stick to that at which they excel...

Ah. C'mon, that was entertaining.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-07-03 12:00am

Hamel, I'll give you this much -- you've got strong views on the subject, and I respect people who have passion. You didn't have all the answers this time around -- but I know your passion will lead you to find them.

Well fought, man!

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-07-03 12:07am

Just checking in to make sure Sheen hasn't been dragged off by the Gestapo yet.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-07-03 12:27am

HemlockGrey wrote:Just checking in to make sure Sheen hasn't been dragged off by the Gestapo yet.

Not yet. It rather amuses me to imagine him living in fear of it, however.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-07-03 02:14am

Solauren wrote:People, calm down.

It's the MEDIA that's shoving this shit down our throats.

Face it. Would we even know the Sheen said this if the media didn't put it on TV?

That's why I don't watch the news for the most part. I watch Letterman and Leno cause the monologues are funny, and I check Yahoo News. That's it.

Why?

Because now a-days, the media is just looking for ratings. Case in point, the micheal jackson specials. I know the guys fucked up, but I don't want to watch it on TV.

Long gone are the days of Walter Croncite and news with integrity. It went out the window with a sweeps week.

I find that scary. Watch the news man, watch a couple different sources and judge for yourself, but watch the news man.

And Concrite was really no different than modern day talking heads, he just had fewer competitors.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2003-07-03 06:37pm

Knife wrote:
Solauren wrote: That's why I don't watch the news for the most part. I watch Letterman and Leno cause the monologues are funny, and I check Yahoo News. That's it.

Long gone are the days of Walter Croncite and news with integrity. It went out the window with a sweeps week.
I find that scary. Watch the news man, watch a couple different sources and judge for yourself, but watch the news man.

And Concrite was really no different than modern day talking heads, he just had fewer competitors.

Sorry, let me clarify

I read newspapers, but I don't watch the big 'national' news unless I saw someting on Yahoo during the day of interest. (Yahoo is good for that for me).

As for concrite, I meant, he had integrity. He didn't put shit nearly as bad on. Sure, some shit, but that's to be expected.

He would have watched the Micheal Jackson tape and been like "he's just sick, send this to the cops" not "oh, ratings!"

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2003-07-03 06:47pm

Solauren wrote: As for concrite, I meant, he had integrity. He didn't put shit nearly as bad on. Sure, some shit, but that's to be expected.

He would have watched the Micheal Jackson tape and been like "he's just sick, send this to the cops" not "oh, ratings!"

Perhaps, but I'm not sure. TV anchormen play what brings them the ratings, and there seemed to be less taste for celebrity news among the mainstream news reporting in the 70s.

And let's not forget, Cronkite was the one who mischaracterized the Tet offensive as a crushing U.S. military defeat, when in fact it was anything but, and thereby helped stir up a huge wave of popular disenchantment with the war on the home front. Since the admitted strategy of Ho Chi Minh and Vo Nguyen Giap was to attack the American will to fight (seeing as they knew they could neither defeat the U.S. military in conventional military fight, nor could they attack U.S. industry and deprive the military of the means to wage war), a case can be made that Cronkite helped the North Vietnamese achieve their strategic goals and win the war.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-07-03 09:47pm

Hamel, something else to bear in mind is that I cannot recll any reight wing celebrity coming out and shouting from the rooftops inane things like, "If Bill Clinton marches on Yugoslavia, I'm moving to Calcutta" or "If Al Gore gets elected, I refuse to accept him as my president".

The closest thing I can recall off the top of my head was bumper stickers that went out during the Clinton-Gore years saying "Charlton Heston is my President" but those were grass-roots not some celebrity ranting away.

These left wing celebs then put their feet in their mouths after screeching about how they were oing to leave the US if Bush did this or that....but they're still here sucking up money from the poor with their 'entertainment'. In other words, they revealed themselves as hypocritical mouth-offs and nothng more.