Euros have an evil gun culture!

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-03 02:56pm

Teh Independent

* * * * *

The figures which show Europe's gun culture rivals US

By Stephen Castle in Strasbourg
02 July 2003

Europeans own a total of 67 million registered guns, according to a new survey, which argues that some nations have developed a gun culture that bears comparison with the United States.

The report highlights recent incidents of mass shootings and political assassinations, raising questions about the increasing availability of firearms in Europe and their use.

"Contrary to the common assumption that Europeans are virtually unarmed, an estimated 84 million firearms are legally held in the 15 member states of the EU. Of these, 80 per cent - 67 million guns - are in civilian hands," the report states. But the Small Arms Survey also concludes that the gun culture varies enormously between European nations, and does not pinpoint any overall trend in behaviour in the EU.

The document reflects the fact that, throughout the continent as a whole, the situation has improved and that the end of the war in the Balkans leaves Chechnya as the only major ongoing conflict.

But in some EU countries, domestic gun ownership is surprisingly high. According to Aaron Karp, co-author of the report: "Citizens of most European countries are more heavily armed than they realise, with an average of 17.4 guns per 100 people in the 15 EU countries alone." While that falls a long way behind the US, which is "fast approaching a statistical level of one gun per person", Germans are buying almost as many new firearms per capita as Americans.

Finland, with its strong hunting tradition, has the most legally registered guns in the EU at 39 per 100 people, the UK has 10 - one third of the German and French figures - and the Netherlands has two. Gun laws are tightest in the UK, the Netherlands and Poland, while France has more legal handguns than the Czech Republic, Denmark, Poland, England, Wales and Scotland combined.

Mr Karp said the assumption there is no overlap between European and American gun culture is misleading. "We have been acting as if this was a comparison between Mars and Venus, but that does not always hold. Many - but not all - countries of Europe have a strong gun culture," he said. He also highlighted the convergence between US and European problems in controlling illegal firearms - thought to exceed those that are registered - and of armed crime.

The report, compiled by an independent research project funded by 12 governments, stresses the diversity of different national law but points out that Germany and France do not have a tradition of tight regulation of firearms. Registration of new guns was only made compulsory in Germany in 1972 and in France in 1995.

It also highlights recent cases of mass murder in both nations: at a school in Erfurt, Germany, in April 2002, where 17 died and 10 were wounded, and in Nanterre, France, in March last year when eight people were killed and 12 wounded in an attack on a council building. In the 13 months before last October, 47 people died and more than 36 were wounded with privately held guns in mass shootings in France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland.

By and large, Europeans show a preference for rifles and shotguns over handguns. With the exception of France, handgun ownership is largely restricted to urban areas.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-07-03 03:04pm

I'm fine with this. Registered, legally owned guns are not a problem. Although I've known that some European countries have a strong gun culture, this came as a bit of a surprise.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-03 03:10pm

Oberleutnant wrote:IAlthough I've known that some European countries have a strong gun culture, this came as a bit of a surprise.

Spanish gun owners are really screwed if they like to do competitive
shooting:

Galland on AW.net wrote: A long while ago I read a nightmarish report written in broken English by a Spanish pistol shooter. He is into the IPSC handgun stuff. He has trouble maintaining his proficiency because Spanish law prevents him from owning enough brass cases to load sufficient amounts of practice ammunition. The alternative -- factory ammo -- would be unaffordable. So basically this poor Spaniard can't get in enough practice for IPSC because the government has made it impossible.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2003-07-03 03:11pm

Atleas we don't go around killing everone in sight.

I am considering getting a hunters exam that is a requsite(sp?) to getting a gun permit.

If I do take the course and pass I would but myself a shotgun and a hunting rifle 30.06

My dad have some land where I might hunt elk and deer.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2003-07-03 03:12pm

Drunk and stuff can't spell to save my life sorry about that.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-03 03:13pm

Faram wrote:Atleas we don't go around killing everone in sight.

Neither do we - Delete the minorities living in the urban areas, and our
murder rate drops to European levels or somewhat in that range

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-07-03 04:10pm

We have a lot of gun owners in Portugal. The biggest difference between our situation and the U.S is the difficulty to buy a gun (you have to be either a hunter of have a similar valid reason, an impeccable record and be submited to tests) and the type of armement you can buy.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-07-03 04:23pm

Faram wrote:Drunk and stuff can't spell to save my life sorry about that.

Drunk you say? You're half way to a US Redneck style hunting trip. Now you just need to add the gun.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-07-03 04:30pm

I've been longing for shooting few rounds with a gun for a long time. I guess the next twelve months in the military will remove that problem.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2003-07-03 06:18pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Faram wrote:Atleas we don't go around killing everone in sight.
Neither do we - Delete the minorities living in the urban areas, and our
murder rate drops to European levels or somewhat in that range

Yes! Yes! We need to make living space for white folks in cities!

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-03 08:34pm

Lonestar wrote: Yes! Yes! We need to make living space for white folks in cities!

I was speaking in the statistical sense, not the literal sense

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-07-03 09:26pm

Oberleutnant wrote:I've been longing for shooting few rounds with a gun for a long time. I guess the next twelve months in the military will remove that problem.

One year conscripts in a western army have to rank was one of the largest possibul wastes of money on the history of the worlds militaries.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-07-03 09:34pm

Bear in mind it does not say what kinds of guns are allowed. I believe-- corect me if I'm wrong-- that a French gun law states that any weapo that has ever ben used in any nation's military forces canot be owned legally. So that means that a 1776 Brown Bess flintlock would be classified a 'dangerous military firearm'.

I wonder if this means that any civilian firearm that was ever proven to be used in a guerrilla ation could also be rounded up at whim as a 'weapon of war'.....

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-07-03 10:33pm

Proof that European governments aren't entirely made of bleeding heart liberal/ socialist pansies.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2003-07-03 11:46pm

I heart the NRA. They'll keep gun control under control..

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-07-04 12:13am

How do you 'heart' the NRA?

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-07-04 12:16am

Anyhoo, Back to the topic. Not to sound racist, but, Shep was right. If you take out the crime committed by inner city minorities, the gun violence rate would drop to European levels. This isn't to say that white males are immune to crime, they most assuredly aren't, but, it is a fact that the majority of violent crime is committed by inner city minorities, usually in gang violence or the like.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-07-04 12:59am

If you take out the crime committed by inner city minorities, the gun violence rate would drop to European levels.

Furthermore, if you take Switzerland out of the inclusion in the stats, mentioned in the article, I'd bet that you lose half the guns right there.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-07-04 01:01am

NOTE: The justification behind ignoring inner-city gun-related killings, as Shep mentioned, is NOT based on race. It's based on the fact that these are so-called "gang killings", and studies have indicated that, even in the absence of guns, gang killings are not statistically altered. In other words, if a gang really wants to kill a member of a rival gang, they'll do it, whether they need to beat him, stab him, run him over, you name it.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-07-04 02:01am

White and Asian gangs-- typically portrayed as successful cultures within America-- kill just as much as the Black and Latino gangs. It is a problem within decayed inner cities, not a race or guns situation. And if you could magicaly remov eth eguns, they'd still kill-- the problem is endemic to the situation not the guns or race.....

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-07-04 04:08am

Coyote wrote:White and Asian gangs-- typically portrayed as successful cultures within America-- kill just as much as the Black and Latino gangs.

But the per capita instances of the gangs existing is higher for the latter communities. Which is as you point out related to the poor state of major cities where a large proportion of minorities live.

Now of course the logical solution is to attack that problem, the poor state of cities and especially their education systems. Instead we get affirmative action and gun control.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-07-04 04:33am

Now of course the logical solution is to attack that problem, the poor state of cities and especially their education systems. Instead we get affirmative action and gun control.

Because the former solution requires effort, work, and intelligence. The latter solution requires no effort, no work, no intelligence... and allows politicians to tug at the heartstrings of gullible voters ("Think of the children!") to get back into office.

In short, there're a lot of politicians that sold out the safety of people in "the projects" just so they can keep their mansion and bone their secretary. Not surprising, really.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-07-04 11:48am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Oberleutnant wrote:I've been longing for shooting few rounds with a gun for a long time. I guess the next twelve months in the military will remove that problem.
One year conscripts in a western army have to rank was one of the largest possibul wastes of money on the history of the worlds militaries.

Well, I'm not complaining if gets me physically fit and gives me experience to handle different situations later on in life.

Besides, I'm not responsible for maintaining EU's second smallest military expenditures which means that a professional army is out of the question because of its high cost.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-07-05 11:53am

Lonestar wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:
Faram wrote:Atleas we don't go around killing everone in sight.
Neither do we - Delete the minorities living in the urban areas, and our
murder rate drops to European levels or somewhat in that range

Yes! Yes! We need to make living space for white folks in cities!

So this explains Sheppard's fascination with Das Dritte Reich....

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-07-05 01:05pm

Oberleutnant wrote:
Well, I'm not complaining if gets me physically fit and gives me experience to handle different situations later on in life. Besides, I'm not responsible for maintaining EU's second smallest military expenditures which means that a professional army is out of the question because of its high cost.

Then conscript fewer people, but for at least two years.