Jedi battle performance in the arena

[Darth Yoshi]

Vader was mostly likely holding back. He may be an evil asshole, but Luke is still his son.

Regardless, I believe that the Jedi did poorly on Geonosis because of their belief in their own reputation, and the lack of large scale operations that came about as a result of said reputation.

[Howedar]

Possibly, although very doubtful. Nothing in the OT even remotely suggest this is the case.

Nothing but obvious logic. Unless you mean to suggest it was Dooku that was weakening the OR Jedi...

For example Luke showed no signs of diminished force powers in TESB when he had the vison of Han and Leia at Cloud City, lightyears away and a couple of days before they got there.

Neither do the Jedi in AOTC. We have only Windu's statement in TPM to go on on this.

He was also holding his own quite well against Vader in TESB and ROTJ.

The Jedi were doing quite well in the arena, too. That has nothing to do with anything.

It's also possible that Luke, being the son of the chosen one, had something that negated the darkside's diminishing powers.

Ha! Hahaha! Surely you jest. Anakin was not immune to these diminished powers (he wasn't exactly flying about in the Arena battle either); why would his son be?

[Knife]

URG, it seemed to me that the Jedi were doing quite well in the first few minutes of the battle. It showed Jedi in with the droids, cutting them down. Only after staggering amounts of droids flooded the area, did the Jedi get pressed into a knot.

Remember, Anakin and Padme were galluping around in a cart durring the begeining of the battle. Mace was running around the arena against droids, Jango, and the bull thingy. They were using mobility until the heavy artillery and weight of numbers pushed them into a defensive position.

[FTeik]

It's possible Geonosis may have been the first time for many of them to have experienced live combat.

That is very likely the case. Especially for this unfortunate padawan: link

He couldn't have been more than 13-14 years old.

What were those fuckers (the Jedi or the guys, who wrote it happened on Geonosis) thinking???

[Wild Karrde]

Possibly, although very doubtful. Nothing in the OT even remotely suggest this is the case.

Nothing but obvious logic. Unless you mean to suggest it was Dooku that was weakening the OR Jedi...

Clarify please. I was talking about how the Emperor wasn't weaking Luke, what does Dooku and the OR Jedi have to do with that?

For example Luke showed no signs of diminished force powers in TESB when he had the vison of Han and Leia at Cloud City, lightyears away and a couple of days before they got there.

Neither do the Jedi in AOTC. We have only Windu's statement in TPM to go on on this.[/quote]

As I pointed out earlier the only ones who didn't seem that weakened were either very strong users of the force or Jedi masters. These were also the only ones who were doing force jumps/falls/etc.

He was also holding his own quite well against Vader in TESB and ROTJ.

The Jedi were doing quite well in the arena, too. That has nothing to do with anything.[/quote]

Conceded.

It's also possible that Luke, being the son of the chosen one, had something that negated the darkside's diminishing powers.

Ha! Hahaha! Surely you jest. Anakin was not immune to these diminished powers (he wasn't exactly flying about in the Arena battle either); why would his son be?[/quote]

It was only a theory, could be just as simple as Palpatine considering that a single jedi wasn't worth the effort to search for with the darkside and limit said Jedi's powers.

[Hethrir]

I imagine jedis jumping among the droids, twisting their sabres and jumping away before any droid could (effectively) fire on them.
Is there a reason that they did not do theese? Were they too tired or something?

Remember that not only is it rare to find one who is Force sensative, but even rarer to find one that is strong in the Force. Not all Jedi there would have a) been strong in the Force like Anakin, Obi-Wan or Mace or b) a gift in fighting.

[Ted C]

Isn't it just peachy that GL has henceforth decreed the Jedi are to be the Generals in the Clone Wars?

That's predictable; the Republic doesn't seem to have anyone else with significant military experience, either. Appointment of the Jedi to leadership positions would seem to be a very likely political move, since the Jedi are generally trusted by the Senate. Furthermore, the Senators still believe that the Jedi will be able to use their precognitive and clairvoyant powers to aid them in planning a war strategy (they're not aware that the Dark Side is restricting those abilities). Finally, placing the Jedi in the combat zone creates more opportunities for Palpatine/Sidious, who wants them dead.

The Jedi aren't well qualified to be generals, but there are obvious political reasons for appointing them anyway.

[TheFeniX]

He was also holding his own quite well against Vader in TESB and ROTJ.

ESB: Vader was toying with Luke. He was fighting him with one hand through most of the battle. He was making Luke frustrated and angry.

RotJ: Same thing. Luke was much better now, but Vader wasn't trying to kill him. Luke had to call upon the Dark Side to beat vaders defenses down and take off his hand.

[Darth_Shinji]

Heres my question after catching AOTC on showtime tonight.... If the Jedi knights were weakened as considerable as EU levels indicated why were they still arrogant? I mean to suffer that much should of humbled them big time. I think that the dimishing effect was just begining and really only noticible to the two most powerful Jedi there. Future seeing across planets have to be thier strongest ability so naturaly its the first to go blitzy as thier powers weakened. Its prob when thier powers weaken on a personal level that paply moves in with the holucaust.

[ShinjiGohan]

In the driod battle, if the Jedi had the supposive power to create force lightning, then why didn't they do that to all of the driods? Lightning is an effective attack against robots.

For their force being diminished. It would be possible for just the precog to be lessened while their other abilities stayed the same.

Example, have sets A, B, and C. Where sets A and B are subsets of C.

Assume that Set A is the precog.
Assume that Set B are the rest of their abilities (just for sake of simplication).
Assume that Set C is the Force in whole.

Set A has the elements {1,2,3}
Set B has elements {4,5,6}
So C has elements {1,2,3,4,5,6}

Assume that Set A is the precog. Now remove element {1}.

In that way Set A has been weakened/lessened, and so to Set C.

As {1} is an element of both A and C. So precog could be weakened, and the force overall is weakened, but the other jedi abilities are uneffected.

Or it could happen the other way, where all the jedi abilities are weakened.

From the dailogue in the film, this part is unclear. It could mean either case.

But using some implication from how they said the sentences gives the likely hood of just the precog being weakened.

As their first state that they've been blinded (now wouldn't it be logical if some physical abilities were weakened if they provided a short list? Why only state that their precog and ability to see has been hindered?)

Wouldn't they have noticed that suddenly they weren't as fast? Or their reflexes, or whatever was weakened as well?

Then from the dailogue they continue on saying how their ability to use the force has diminished. Which was a general statement refering back to the first. And as I showed in this post, just by limiting precog their ability to use the force has diminished. So what we basicly end up having is a statement of
"There Exists X power, for all Y Power, that is diminished"

That would support that only the precog was limited.

Rather than

"For All power Y, All X abilities are diminished"

That would support that all their abilities were diminished.

Now what this implies that there is a higher chance that only precog was limited rather than all of their powers. But its still unclear, and has a chance to be wrong. To say that any one way is right or wrong with certainly is flawed. As they both could have happened, but from the evidence, I'm leaning towards that only precog was limited.

Anyway thats my theory and I'm sticking to it, unless you've got some more facts to back up your theory, then I might accept your theory more. But til then -remainds adamant-

[Asellus]

I kind of had the impression that most of the Dark Side clouding was in regards to the activity of the dark users. After all, in TPM the Jedi Council seemed to think it would be impossible for the Sith to be back without them realizing it. Maybe the future-Emperor and company are able to cloud themselves and their activities?

Of course, the lack of vision could be part of a larger loss of power as well, but having it being more directed explains why the Jedi would still expect to be able to sense them. They aren't that much weakened.

That being said though, it seems to me that the Jedi's accustomed role is much closer to something like "Police" than it is to being soldiers. If Jedi took place in battles regularly or on a large scale it would be hard to keep a reputation as defenders (There's always a losing side, after all and people who were on it). Maybe part of the problem on Genosa was simply that the Jedi weren't used to fighting as a single unit?

[neoolong]

snip

starwars.com, under the Jedi Order databank listing says that the Jedis had their ability to use the force diminish with nothing to suggest it only applied to certain parts.

Take of it what you will.

[ShinjiGohan]

snip

starwars.com, under the Jedi Order databank listing says that the Jedis had their ability to use the force diminish with nothing to suggest it only applied to certain parts.

Take of it what you will.

As I said (albeit rather confusingly pending on your viewpoint), being weakened in 1 power, has the net affect of their ability to use the force being diminished. Do you see how ambigious that this statement is?

[neoolong]

snip

starwars.com, under the Jedi Order databank listing says that the Jedis had their ability to use the force diminish with nothing to suggest it only applied to certain parts.

Take of it what you will.

As I said (albeit rather confusingly pending on your viewpoint), being weakened in 1 power, has the net affect of their ability to use the force being diminished. Do you see how ambigious that this statement is?

The ambiguity of it perhaps being only one power is so only because of the dialog of the movie. Since another source implies it in another way, a way that the dialog can also mean, I would hold that it was their total ability, since though the dialog is ambigious, additional sources are not so.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Isn't it just peachy that GL has henceforth decreed the Jedi are to be the Generals in the Clone Wars?

That's predictable; the Republic doesn't seem to have anyone else with significant military experience, either.

There's got to be some military tradition with the Security Forces and some of the GFFA's military academies, such as Carida, which have existed for a long time. Don't forget Pelleaon had served in the military before the Clone Wars, so there has to be some in the Security Forces.