President George W. Bush encouraged Congress on Tuesday to allow federally funded religious groups to hire and fire workers according to their faith or sexual orientation.
Under current law, faith-based groups that receive government funding for social services work are bound by state and local nondiscrimination hiring laws -- many of which ban bias according sexual orientation and gender identity. But Bush's plan, as outlined in the White House position paper circulated on Capitol Hill Tuesday, aims to hold those agencies only to federal law, which does not address sexual orientation or gender identity discrimination.
As reported in the Washington Post, the president's position paper argues that hiring autonomy -- even if it involves discrimination -- is part of a group's civil rights.
"When they receive federal funds, they should retain their right to hire those individuals who are best able to further their organizations' goals and mission," the document said.
H. James Towey, director of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, told the Post the issue of religious hiring is deterring some groups from providing services, which could ultimately mean less help for the poor.
Towey also noted that President Clinton signed four laws, including the 1996 welfare reform act, which allowed religious-based hiring in federally funded groups.
The White House document, which articulates but does not change administration policy, elicited mixed reactions.
"President Bush shouldn't use his power to force taxpayers to fund their own discrimination," said Dave Noble, head of the National Stonewall Democrats, in a statement. "He is wrong to tell states that they cannot protect their citizens against anti-gay prejudice in order to appease his right-wing base on the eve of a re-election campaign."
"It is counterproductive and wrong to fight social injustices like poverty and hunger by promoting another social injustice like discrimination, said Winnie Stachelberg, political director of the Human Rights Campaign (HRC).
HRC, the nation's largest GLBT rights group, noted that Bush's policy -- like his faith-based executive order of last year -- does not allow groups to discriminate among recipients of social services based on faith or sexual orientation grounds.
When asked for a comment, Mark Mead, spokesman for the nation's largest gay GOP group, told the Gay.com/PlanetOut.com Network, "The Log Cabin Republicans is against discrimination of all types."
The Rev. Ronald J. Sider, leader of Evangelicals for Social Action, which encourages evangelical Christians to work for the poor, told the Post: "I think the administration understands that the very identity of faith-based organizations is at issue in hiring rights."
Bush's plan may face an uphill battle in Congress. On Wednesday, Rep. Robert Scott, D-Va., planned to submit a bill to nullify the Bush administration's decisions that permit employment discrimination by some religious groups, the Post reported.
Holy Shit.. Bush says no God no Job??
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Holy Shit.. Bush says no God no Job??
From PlanetOut news:
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Jim Raynor
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WTF. It's completely their choice to accept federal funds. If they want to discriminate, then they shouldn't get money. Simple as that.As reported in the Washington Post, the president's position paper argues that hiring autonomy -- even if it involves discrimination -- is part of a group's civil rights.
"When they receive federal funds, they should retain their right to hire those individuals who are best able to further their organizations' goals and mission," the document said.
OK, discrimination for private organizations is one thing, but if you want to accept federal moolah, you better not be doing that bullshit.
BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman
I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
There's two different questions here: Are they discriminating against aid recipients or workers or both?
Discriminating against recipients is not acceptable under any circumstances. The case regarding workers is trickier. There's the no establishment clause in the constitution, but as I recall, so is freedom of association. Those two constitutional principles are on equal footing, and in this case on a direct collision course. Ultimately it should be up to the Supreme Court to decide which one gains primacy in a case of collision as we have here. There was exactly this sort of case here two years ago, and our Supreme Court ruled in favor of freedom of association.
The discrimination on the basis of ideological differences (and perhaps even sexual orientation, though that's murkier) for an ideological organization is not necessarily unconstitutional at all, but it is immoral nonetheless. And that the government supports it when the non-establishment clause is as explicit as it is, is also immoral, regardless of constitutionality or lack thereof. Even if it does not violate the letter of the law, it violates the spirit.
Sadly, this issue is not quite as clear-cut as it seems on the surface, and it may well be that the law will stand.
Edi
Discriminating against recipients is not acceptable under any circumstances. The case regarding workers is trickier. There's the no establishment clause in the constitution, but as I recall, so is freedom of association. Those two constitutional principles are on equal footing, and in this case on a direct collision course. Ultimately it should be up to the Supreme Court to decide which one gains primacy in a case of collision as we have here. There was exactly this sort of case here two years ago, and our Supreme Court ruled in favor of freedom of association.
The discrimination on the basis of ideological differences (and perhaps even sexual orientation, though that's murkier) for an ideological organization is not necessarily unconstitutional at all, but it is immoral nonetheless. And that the government supports it when the non-establishment clause is as explicit as it is, is also immoral, regardless of constitutionality or lack thereof. Even if it does not violate the letter of the law, it violates the spirit.
Sadly, this issue is not quite as clear-cut as it seems on the surface, and it may well be that the law will stand.
Edi
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist
Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp
GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan
The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp
GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan
The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
This is bullshit and I just KNEW that this was coming down the pike the moment he pushed for these fucking faith based initiatives.
They are receiving Federal Funds....period. They have to abide by Federal law in terms of discrimination laws. If these church groups want to fire gays then they should get off the Government's tit.
Godamnit does he have to be this predictable???
They are receiving Federal Funds....period. They have to abide by Federal law in terms of discrimination laws. If these church groups want to fire gays then they should get off the Government's tit.
Godamnit does he have to be this predictable???
Wherever you go, there you are.
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Xenophobe3691
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Who didn't see this coming?
I hope that Representative Scott gets that bill through Congress. I shall also be doing something I've never done before, and write my Representatives and Senators to get this bill through.
I hope that Representative Scott gets that bill through Congress. I shall also be doing something I've never done before, and write my Representatives and Senators to get this bill through.
Dark Heresy: Dance Macabre - Imperial Psyker Magnus Arterra
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Drooling Iguana
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All I can say is that I'm really glad I'm not American.
Then again, I've been saying that for years.
Then again, I've been saying that for years.
"Stop! No one can survive these deadly rays!"
"These deadly rays will be your death!"
- Thor and Akton, Starcrash
"Before man reaches the moon your mail will be delivered within hours from New York to California, to England, to India or to Australia by guided missiles.... We stand on the threshold of rocket mail."
- Arthur Summerfield, US Postmaster General 1953 - 1961
"These deadly rays will be your death!"
- Thor and Akton, Starcrash
"Before man reaches the moon your mail will be delivered within hours from New York to California, to England, to India or to Australia by guided missiles.... We stand on the threshold of rocket mail."
- Arthur Summerfield, US Postmaster General 1953 - 1961
This is one of the reasons why I would not trust a private charity over gov't alternatives.
"Right now we can tell you a report was filed by the family of a 12 year old boy yesterday afternoon alleging Mr. Michael Jackson of criminal activity. A search warrant has been filed and that search is currently taking place. Mr. Jackson has not been charged with any crime. We cannot specifically address the content of the police report as it is confidential information at the present time, however, we can confirm that Mr. Jackson forced the boy to listen to the Howard Stern show and watch the movie Private Parts over and over again."
These charities are no longer strictly private. They're on the government teat, and where federal money goes federal rules follow inevitably.
BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman
I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
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The Yosemite Bear
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Phil Skayhan
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Has anyone found a link to the actual position paper?
One thing from the Washington Post article caught my eye
Still, I would really like to read the paper myself.
One thing from the Washington Post article caught my eye
This could end up in Congress as legislation having the opposite effect that the PlanetOut article alleges is the intent of the White House position paper.Washington Post wrote:The White House document calls on Congress to clarify a confusing and sometimes contradictory area of law. Since 1972, Title VII of the federal Civil Rights Act has said religious groups can hire staff based on religious beliefs, which at least one court has interpreted to include views on sexual orientation. But the legislation that authorizes some federal social service programs, such as job training, prohibits any group that receives federal funds from discriminating on the basis of age, gender, race and religion.
No broad federal law bans discrimination in hiring based on sexual orientation, although some state and local laws do.
Still, I would really like to read the paper myself.
Happily married gay couples with closets full of assault weapons. That's my vision for America
Stravo, yeah, it's ugly and pretty clear from the start what the intent was, but since freedom of association is in the constitution while anti-discrimination clauses are not, they can just give the Federal laws the finger and odds are that they will win in Supreme Court if anyone takes them there. There's pretty much fuck-all anybody can do about it if they pass that. Constitutional law trumps the Federal ones, so unless you get an anti-discrimination amendment passed, tough luck. It seems that way to me at least. Tell me, is my reasoning off base here, or is it, as I fear, correct?Stravo wrote:This is bullshit and I just KNEW that this was coming down the pike the moment he pushed for these fucking faith based initiatives.
They are receiving Federal Funds....period. They have to abide by Federal law in terms of discrimination laws. If these church groups want to fire gays then they should get off the Government's tit.
Godamnit does he have to be this predictable???
Just so you know where I got that from, we have the anti-discrimination clause in our constitution and freedom of association still trumped it in our Supreme Court, though that case was on ideological grounds only. Here discrimination based on sexual orientation would not have flown, but it was a clearcut case because the guy fired by the church (which gets government money here) was a known opponent of the church on ideological grounds. If he had been a devoutly believing homosexual, the church would have gotten its ass handed to it.
Edi
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist
Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp
GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan
The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp
GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan
The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
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Einhander Sn0m4n
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HELL THE FUCK NO!!President George W. Bush encouraged Congress on Tuesday to allow federally funded religious groups to hire and fire workers according to their faith or sexual orientation.
They're not gonna steal MY GODDAMN MONEY to help discriminate against fellow humans just because some asshole doesn't like someone else's belief systems or inborn traits! It's fuckin bad enough they're stealing my money in the first place! Now they want to GIVE IT TO CHRISTIAN OPPRESSORS!?!?
Fuck the Government, Fuck Bush, Fuck Cheney, Fuck Clinton, Fuck the Moral Majority, Fuck the Money-Grubbing Libbies, Fuck the Goddamn DEA Terrorists, Fuck 'em all!
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Gil Hamilton
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Was anyone else a bit confused by the thread's title?
Anyway, it's bullshit, but not totally unexpected bullshit from Bush. After all, he wants to cement the Christian Right vote, since he probably figures that anyone who'd be against this are people that won't vote for him regardless.
Really, I'm getting a bit stuck now. I can't, in good consciousness vote, for any of the wankers that are jockeying for the Democratic candidate in '04. But I can't vote Republican because Bush is destined to win that slot and I will not vote for Bush. But most of the other parties are worse than either and I want my vote to mean something, which eliminates the Libertarians. It's quickly becoming "Chose the Lesser of Two Evils: Vote for Wanker A or vote for Wanker B".
Anyway, it's bullshit, but not totally unexpected bullshit from Bush. After all, he wants to cement the Christian Right vote, since he probably figures that anyone who'd be against this are people that won't vote for him regardless.
Really, I'm getting a bit stuck now. I can't, in good consciousness vote, for any of the wankers that are jockeying for the Democratic candidate in '04. But I can't vote Republican because Bush is destined to win that slot and I will not vote for Bush. But most of the other parties are worse than either and I want my vote to mean something, which eliminates the Libertarians. It's quickly becoming "Chose the Lesser of Two Evils: Vote for Wanker A or vote for Wanker B".
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet
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"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert
"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
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HemlockGrey
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The President's endorsement does not ensure that this charade will pass.All I can say is that I'm really glad I'm not American.
The End of Suburbia
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
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Wicked Pilot
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Re: Holy Shit.. Bush says no God no Job??
Towey also noted that President Clinton signed four laws, including the 1996 welfare reform act, which allowed religious-based hiring in federally funded groups.
This is my favorite part of the article. If Clinton did it, then it must be OK. Why not just keep him as president?
The most basic assumption about the world is that it does not contradict itself.
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Drooling Iguana
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The President's endorsement is enough to ensure that I'm really glad I'm not American.HemlockGrey wrote:The President's endorsement does not ensure that this charade will pass.All I can say is that I'm really glad I'm not American.
"Stop! No one can survive these deadly rays!"
"These deadly rays will be your death!"
- Thor and Akton, Starcrash
"Before man reaches the moon your mail will be delivered within hours from New York to California, to England, to India or to Australia by guided missiles.... We stand on the threshold of rocket mail."
- Arthur Summerfield, US Postmaster General 1953 - 1961
"These deadly rays will be your death!"
- Thor and Akton, Starcrash
"Before man reaches the moon your mail will be delivered within hours from New York to California, to England, to India or to Australia by guided missiles.... We stand on the threshold of rocket mail."
- Arthur Summerfield, US Postmaster General 1953 - 1961
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Vertigo1
- Defender of the Night
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Hey Bush, I've got a special message for you.
KISS MY ASS!
KISS MY ASS!
"I once asked Rebecca to sing Happy Birthday to me during sex. That was funny, especially since I timed my thrusts to sync up with the words. And yes, it was my birthday." - Darth Wong
Leader of the SD.Net Gargoyle Clan | Spacebattles Firstone | Twitter
Leader of the SD.Net Gargoyle Clan | Spacebattles Firstone | Twitter
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StarshipTitanic
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Nice room...AND I HATE YOU! 
"Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me...God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist." -- Academician Prokhor Zakharov
"Hal grabs life by the balls and doesn't let you do that [to] hal."
"I hereby declare myself master of the known world."
"Hal grabs life by the balls and doesn't let you do that [to] hal."
"I hereby declare myself master of the known world."
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Vertigo1
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That was taken the very night I got back from my trip.StarshipTitanic wrote:Nice room...AND I HATE YOU!
"I once asked Rebecca to sing Happy Birthday to me during sex. That was funny, especially since I timed my thrusts to sync up with the words. And yes, it was my birthday." - Darth Wong
Leader of the SD.Net Gargoyle Clan | Spacebattles Firstone | Twitter
Leader of the SD.Net Gargoyle Clan | Spacebattles Firstone | Twitter
If it makes you feel better, the majority of the voting American public agreed with you in 2000.Drooling Iguana wrote:The President's endorsement is enough to ensure that I'm really glad I'm not American.HemlockGrey wrote:The President's endorsement does not ensure that this charade will pass.All I can say is that I'm really glad I'm not American.
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Wicked Pilot
- Moderator Emeritus
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The President's endorsement makes me wish I had a bottle of whiskey to drown my worries inWicked Pilot wrote:The President's endorsement makes me wish he wasn't an American.Drooling Iguana wrote:The President's endorsement is enough to ensure that I'm really glad I'm not American.
ahyuk
"Right now we can tell you a report was filed by the family of a 12 year old boy yesterday afternoon alleging Mr. Michael Jackson of criminal activity. A search warrant has been filed and that search is currently taking place. Mr. Jackson has not been charged with any crime. We cannot specifically address the content of the police report as it is confidential information at the present time, however, we can confirm that Mr. Jackson forced the boy to listen to the Howard Stern show and watch the movie Private Parts over and over again."
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Xenophobe3691
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Well, see, in America we have this thing called "Democracy." Well, we had, before we sold it out for our couch potato existence.Howedar wrote:If it makes you feel better, the majority of the voting American public agreed with you in 2000.
Dark Heresy: Dance Macabre - Imperial Psyker Magnus Arterra
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BoTM
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Post 666 Made on Fri Jul 04, 2003 @ 12:48 pm
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Actually we're not a democracy but a republic, in which we popularly elect representatives to vote in our place. In the case of presidential elections its the electors that vote for us in the electoral college, which we do indeed vote for. popular election of the president is for PR purposes onlyVorlon1701 wrote:Well, see, in America we have this thing called "Democracy." Well, we had, before we sold it out for our couch potato existence.