Space: The final frontier..?

Raxmei · Post by **Raxmei** » 2003-07-05 02:12am

Drewcifer wrote:Whoops, forgot about needing Oxy for combustion

kojikun wrote:...The Nazi V-2 used drinking alcohol, I believe.
I remember reading somewhere they used hydrogen perioxide? Maybe it was a mixture? But yeah, I remember it being something suprisingly common.

Hydrogen peroxide would be another oxidizer. You can use it instead of LOX, but it has problems of its own. And you still need fuel to make the rocket go. Alcohol burned with hydrogen peroxide would be usable.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-05 02:17am

Drewcifer wrote:I remember reading somewhere they used hydrogen perioxide? Maybe it was a mixture? But yeah, I remember it being something suprisingly common.

As an oxidizer, I believe, yes.

Drewcifer · Post by **Drewcifer** » 2003-07-05 03:06am

*grrr* I'm not normally such a dumbass. I'll go write on the blackboard 100 times: fuel + oxidizer = rocket go vroom

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-05 03:17am

actually raxmei, you dont need a fuel with Hydrogen peroxide because of it inherent instability. it tends to break down rather easilly into water and oxygen when it comes in contact with things like silver. They actually used this fact to make that nifty jetpack by passing hydrogen peroxide over silver or through silver screens, causing the decomposition and heating. But its not enough to launch you into space, the temperatures are not high enough (meaning reduced thrust) and hydrogen peroxide is rather unstable. However, it might be possible actually, because standard kerosene-oxygen combustion produces an exhaust gass that ways a slight more then peroxide decomposition. I'd worry about the peroxide decomposition temperatures, tho.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-07-05 05:49pm

speaking of jetpacks, one can build one now using model airplane turbines instead of the peroxide rocket approach (well, they are close to having the needed thrust now, some designs have over 50lbs thrust)... you'll get ahelluva lot more than 30 seconds of use out of it too. Just make sure your helmet is soundproofed!

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-07-05 05:51pm

matter of fact, what do youguys think of Rutans X-Prize entry, the White Knight/Spaceship One combo?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-05 09:11pm

Rutan is going to be in space this December 3. You watch. The mans a fucknig nut but hes smart, and hes got big funding (big as in PAUL ALLEN). watch for the Techies, like Jeff Bezos and his rocket company..

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-07-05 11:49pm

a fucking nut... hmmm... I wouldnt go that far, seeing as how just about everything he gets involved in ends up succeeding spectacularly... I dont think Ive ever heard of anything Scaled operates ever NOT working as advertised... on the cheap compared to the big boys too. That and Scaled uses X-Plane as its' flight simulator of choice (I just love that sim)

I must add tho that there is that fine line 'tween genius and insanity...

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-07-05 11:51pm

Shaka[Zulu] wrote:a fucking nut... hmmm... I wouldnt go that far, seeing as how just about everything he gets involved in ends up succeeding spectacularly... I dont think Ive ever heard of anything Scaled operates ever NOT working as advertised... on the cheap compared to the big boys too. That and Scaled uses X-Plane as its' flight simulator of choice (I just love that sim)

I must add tho that there is that fine line 'tween genius and insanity...

One usually crossed many a time by both.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-06 01:05am

Rutan IS a nut. He thinks aliens build Giza. Thats ok tho, hes still SMART.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-07-06 03:09am

what... aliens DIDNT build the pyramids???

lol... just kidding but honestly sometimes I think Rutan has a giger fetish, as some of his designs bear a resemblance to well, you know what...

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-06 03:58am

lets just hope that burt gets to suborbital on schedule. man, the market this will open up..

Darth Gojira · Post by **Darth Gojira** » 2003-07-06 08:11am

We should be exploring the system, but nooooooooooooo.............
What ever happened to NASA?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-06 01:57pm

Darth Gojira wrote:We should be exploring the system, but nooooooooooooo.............
What ever happened to NASA?

Read the very first post in this thread..

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-07-06 07:31pm

Darth Gojira wrote:We should be exploring the system, but nooooooooooooo.............
What ever happened to NASA?

Well, if what Stephen Baxter says in most of his Sci-Fi novels is true, then NASA's purpose right now is to keep space travel out of the hands of civilians, so that no Tin Pot Third World Dictator (tm) can run his own spaceport and threaten the rest of the world with Nukes. When looking at the PITIFUL X-Prize competition (10 million dollar prize? That covers about 1/500th of the cost of a single Space Elevator, or maybe 1/100th the cost of developing a viable Spaceplane), you're inclined to agree.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-07-06 08:22pm

Vorlon1701 wrote: Well, if what Stephen Baxter says in most of his Sci-Fi novels is true, then NASA's purpose right now is to keep space travel out of the hands of civilians, so that no Tin Pot Third World Dictator (tm) can run his own spaceport and threaten the rest of the world with Nukes. When looking at the PITIFUL X-Prize competition (10 million dollar prize? That covers about 1/500th of the cost of a single Space Elevator, or maybe 1/100th the cost of developing a viable Spaceplane), you're inclined to agree.

I would be inclined to agree, but that line of thinking -- the part about the TPTWD -- doesnt quite jive.

*edit* oops I almost forgot to finish this... you see, if there were open access to space, such that even third world countries could host their own spaceports... I would think that there were no TPTWDs about. that and those same countries would no longer *be* third-world, the citizenry of which would be enjoying a S.O.L. on par with the rest of the world in terms of economy and education.*/edit*

I do agree with the idea that a great deal of how NASA does business is aimed squarely at preventing a boom in space travel like that which aviation has enjoyed over that last 100 years, for the simple purpose of preventing people from settling the solar system, and potentially setting up a future version of the american revolution. there are also concerns about the potential of cross-contamination, and exposure of earth's biosphere to ET microbes for which life here might have no defenses (this last being a valid, if possibly overblown risk)... no, the real issue is the political one: control over the populace.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-06 08:25pm

Vorlon1701 wrote:Well, if what Stephen Baxter says in most of his Sci-Fi novels is true, then NASA's purpose right now is to keep space travel out of the hands of civilians, so that no Tin Pot Third World Dictator (tm) can run his own spaceport and threaten the rest of the world with Nukes. When looking at the PITIFUL X-Prize competition (10 million dollar prize? That covers about 1/500th of the cost of a single Space Elevator, or maybe 1/100th the cost of developing a viable Spaceplane), you're inclined to agree.

Yeah, the XPrize is small compared to the costs to develop the technology, but it's still an organised prize which is motivating people.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2003-07-06 09:36pm

Shaka[Zulu] wrote:
I would be inclined to agree, but that line of thinking -- the part about the TPTWD -- doesnt quite jive.

*edit* oops I almost forgot to finish this... you see, if there were open access to space, such that even third world countries could host their own spaceports... I would think that there were no TPTWDs about. that and those same countries would no longer *be* third-world, the citizenry of which would be enjoying a S.O.L. on par with the rest of the world in terms of economy and education.*/edit*

While I would tend to agree with what you're saying, facts show that dictators, even with a population so deprived they're bordering on starvation, can and will spend insanely exorbitant amounts of money on projects they feel necessary. One only has to take a look at North Korea to see this process in action, or, to a lesser degree, China (their manned space program has only one purpose. Prestige. That money can go and help all their poor along the Guangzhou not die during flooding).

kojikun wrote: Yeah, the XPrize is small compared to the costs to develop the technology, but it's still an organised prize which is motivating people.

The problem I see with the X-Prize is, while extremely well intentioned, is just that. A good intention. To the big Aerospace firms with the resources and burnable money to be able to design these things, 10 million is a pittance, nothing compared to the costs incurred to build, design, test, and clear this thing. To the amateurs, 10 million dollars isn't even gonna cover the costs of this thing, and, like Rutan, they're gonna have to go out and get investors, thus leading to a situation like the former. THAT's my problem with the X-Prize. It's too little, too late.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-06 09:55pm

oh dont be such a naysayer, vorlon. in this game of space travel, theres no such thing as too little too late, because without the little there will never BE commercial space flight thanks to the expense. without a commercial public endeavor, we will never get people into space.

XPrize is the best way to get the general public into space because it is the ONLY way to get the general public into space. Sure, it aint orbital flight yet, but with the money from sub-orbital tourism you WILL see developements in cheap orbital flight.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-07-07 12:57am

Vorlon1701 wrote: While I would tend to agree with what you're saying, facts show that dictators, even with a population so deprived they're bordering on starvation, can and will spend insanely exorbitant amounts of money on projects they feel necessary. One only has to take a look at North Korea to see this process in action, or, to a lesser degree, China (their manned space program has only one purpose. Prestige. That money can go and help all their poor along the Guangzhou not die during flooding).

ahh... but you forget. killing things like airfields and missile sites is something the USAF does quite well... hence my earlier thought about how a TPTWD wouldnt be likely to get one.

besides. for any such TPTWD, a spaceport would be too big a target anyway. as for the whole prestige thing with china's effort, well isnt that how NASA got started? they just happen to be following our lead -- and THAT surprises me, as they have (or can get) access to the computing power to do much better than our mercury program (a program now 40 years gone)

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-07 02:25am

yes but shaka, computational technology is not the same as rocket technology. theyre making small steps like anyone should. theyre launching a man to space after a few tests. then who knows where. they wouldnt say "hey lets go to the moon" without first going to orbit.

Shaka[Zulu] · Post by **Shaka[Zulu]** » 2003-07-07 02:43am

kojikun wrote:yes but shaka, computational technology is not the same as rocket technology. theyre making small steps like anyone should. theyre launching a man to space after a few tests. then who knows where. they wouldnt say "hey lets go to the moon" without first going to orbit.

yes I know, I was specifically referring to the ability to actually design something *better* than what theyre doing, a job for which a beowulf cluster of shuttle SB52G2 SFF computers would be well suited. I guess what Im trying to say is that they could be proceeding at a much faster pace than they currently are, given that what they are doing has already been done ad nauseum, and the tools today are so much better than they were when we were racing the russians.

but then they dont have a Burt Rutan over there either.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-07 02:50am

you must also consider china doesnt have a commercial group developing the technology with the incentive of getting payed, so theres no reason for them to rush to get it done NOW.

ClaysGhost · Post by **ClaysGhost** » 2003-07-07 04:59am

Vorlon1701 wrote:
Darth Gojira wrote:We should be exploring the system, but nooooooooooooo.............
What ever happened to NASA?
Well, if what Stephen Baxter says in most of his Sci-Fi novels is true, then NASA's purpose right now is to keep space travel out of the hands of civilians, so that no Tin Pot Third World Dictator (tm) can run his own spaceport and threaten the rest of the world with Nukes.

You don't have to be mad to write science fiction novels, but it helps? You don't need a spaceport to threaten the world with nukes. No country in the world with nukes needs a spaceport to deliver them. They use, or would like to use, submarines and silos, like any rational beings with country-busting weapons would. Also, keeping space travel out of the hands of civilians doesn't equate to keeping it out of the hands of other governments (which is presumably the real worry).

ClaysGhost · Post by **ClaysGhost** » 2003-07-07 05:21am

Shaka[Zulu] wrote: yes I know, I was specifically referring to the ability to actually design something *better* than what theyre doing, a job for which a beowulf cluster of shuttle SB52G2 SFF computers would be well suited. I guess what Im trying to say is that they could be proceeding at a much faster pace than they currently are, given that what they are doing has already been done ad nauseum, and the tools today are so much better than they were when we were racing the russians.

The Chinese suffer from having started late, to an extent. Their early reliability record was very, very bad, but then so was everyone else's. The Chinese did manage to recover a satellite from orbit on their first attempt - it took the US until Discoverer 13 to do the same. Their record seems to have improved substantially since the bad year of 1996.