Video Game Canon

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-07-06 08:29pm

Okay, now I am just fucking confused.
From the TA canon thread, only ingame should be considered canon.
Howedar says cutscenes, then ingame, then manuels then fluff.
Ghost Rider says that companion stories are official.
Samas is going fucking nuts and I still have no Fucking clue what the hell the official SD.Net canon policy on games is.
Because frankly if ingame is considered highest canon than games with cheats always win because a cheat is invariably part of the ingame engine.

Tell me I am not off my rocker by thinking this.
I would just like a mod or someone of high debating recognition to give me any quote from the board as to a game canon policy. Otherwise we might want to have a nice (repeat NICE) discussion of game canon and what we will see as acceptable and unacceptable because almost no games have official canon policies.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-07-06 08:32pm

The reason I said companion stories is because Michael Ryans proved with sources that he linked that Bungie offically approves that Halo Novels are official.

As to any other it's debateable but most take that in game cut scenes have a great more validity(SW takes them as Official as well) then in game.

As to other sources...I accept them when I see that the company uses them as approves them as official or canon sources.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-07-06 08:36pm

What I understand it is:

Cutscenes.
Manual fluff.

Ingame.

There is often stuff between the Manual and the Ingame.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-07-06 08:46pm

Thats what I have been arguing to the most point SirNitram.
I would put manuel above cutscenes because the manuel is simple a word description where as a cutscene is limited by the games graphics processor. Aka, super NES cutscenes and the horrible quality that you get, like square explosions.
however, I see how yours would work.

Ok people lets keep posting.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-07-06 08:51pm

What, are you arguing about NES games or something? I think if the game is able to generate a fairly realistic cutscene, to the point where there aren't square explosions, then it should be taken exactly as you see it. If the game cannot generate a sufficeintly real cutscene OR there is nothing for you to base an outdated machines cutscene against (ie- if we have Dr. Madman's laser blowing up an entire city regardless of the graphics, the point gets across and we should take it as we see it) THEN the manual should take precedence.

Or:
Cutscenes/Manual if cutscene is inadequate
Manual
Official website?
Ingame stuff

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-07-06 08:54pm

I see your point Mr. Gnome.
I was overthinking. Your method seems very good. (now someone inform vympel and shep)

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2003-07-06 10:20pm

Except for the intro, the 2 ending movies, all Total Annihilation has are stills between missions (original & expansion packs).

And the 3 movies have the serious problem of scaling (since how big various stuff is hasnt been nailed down).

Also with Bungie offically approves that Halo Novels are official, those novels arent directly produced by Bungie(ie they were from an external source).

Were the Galactic War reports were the weekly breifing on the official Total Annihilation website, about the Galactic War which was a persistant multiplayer meta-game in which the Core & the Arm battled from control of sectors.

Personalyl I cant see how that isnt official or canon.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-07-06 10:28pm

Apperently it ain't.
I don't know but personnally both sirNitram and darth lawn gnomes canon system is very good.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-07-06 10:37pm

ggs wrote:Were the Galactic War reports were the weekly breifing on the official Total Annihilation website, about the Galactic War which was a persistant multiplayer meta-game in which the Core & the Arm battled from control of sectors.

Personalyl I cant see how that isnt official or canon.

Just because it's on an official website, it doesn't make it canon or even official. It just means that Cavedog's PR department thought it was cool. To make an RTS after-action report (or, in this case, what is essentially a fanfiction) a usable source you need a quote from the authorities stating so. That's been your side's burden since post #1 of this whole debate... and you still haven't got it.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-07-06 10:44pm

So darth garden gnome is wrong. And official websites are meaningless.
Where do manuels fit, and where should gameplay fit?
I have gotten 2 straight answers and expect vympel to find this soon and send it to the HOS so i would like to know some other mods opinions.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-07-06 10:51pm

Dark Hellion wrote:So darth garden gnome is wrong. And official websites are meaningless.

Yeah, wasn't too sure on that, which is why I put the question mark there.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-07-06 10:51pm

No Helite the site is just a house Organ, when it is connected with soemhthing from the producers rather then the PR department then it becomes official.

Thus you need to get a nice FAQ statement from one of the producers about the status of Galactic War Report in hard linkable format. Fuck we have had the creators of Warhammer 30k send Emails here it can't be that hard (Hint ask ancaris and Nirram abour that last oen)

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-07-06 10:53pm

Also if Nitram or Ancaris says something is correct/official with 40k we will agree with them. They have worked for GW in the past.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-07-06 11:01pm

Of course, each game may be evaluated differently depending on the specific policies of each company.

But, as a rule, pre-rendered cutscenes should be taken as more reliable than in-game data. In-game cutscenes should be more reliable than gameplay, as well.

So, say, if a character gets injured from a bullet in a pre-rendered or in-game cutscene, that would be more reliable than that same character taking three bullets and still moving at full speed from gameplay. Gameplay has to be balanced for fun, so it is typically overruled by other officially-produced data (cutscenes, novels, any other official background information, manuals, etc).

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-07-06 11:02pm

Dark Hellion wrote:So darth garden gnome is wrong. And official websites are meaningless.

Not necessarily. Website fluff and press releases can be high-order canon for a game, but from what I understand the Galactic War Reports were after-action widgits written by fans and placed on the official website. Fan showcases are different from official fluff.

EDIT:
Er, what Yosemite said.

Where do manuels fit, and where should gameplay fit?

Manuals can vary, IMO. Some are better than others--for example, if it reports something that is wildly divergent from the game, then it's difficult to say what's official and what was the author's mistake.

I have gotten 2 straight answers and expect vympel to find this soon and send it to the HOS so i would like to know some other mods opinions.

He's not going to HOS it without a reason.

We don't make the canon policy, Cavedog does. To figure out what merit different sources have, you need to consult the company, because it varies quite widely from one corporation to the next. For example,

Lucasfilm Canon policy. These things are canon, and things override what's below them in this order:
1- Films and Scripts
2- Film novelizations
3- Expanded Universe Novels
4- Technical Manuals, WEG fluff
5- Toy fluff.
somewhere below here are the quasi-official games, Ewok and Droid cartoons, and the infamous holiday Special.

Paramount Star Trek Canon policy.
Only the shows and movies are canon. Technical manuals and novels are treated as works that are 'inspired' by ST and have a pretty much no status.

For two sci-fi universes, the canon policies are TOTALLY different. You have to get the person(s) who own(s) the intellectual property of the object in question to tell you. In the case of TA, you've got a defunct company, which is trouble.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-07-07 12:25am

The galactic war reports are written by the boneyards staff who are cavedog employees. It is no more fan fic than any fluff on any other site.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-07-07 02:23am

It might as well be fanfic, given that a copy of the canon policy no longer exists.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-07 02:35am

Dark Hellion wrote:So darth garden gnome is wrong. And official websites are meaningless.
Where do manuels fit, and where should gameplay fit?
I have gotten 2 straight answers and expect vympel to find this soon and send it to the HOS so i would like to know some other mods opinions.

I'll tell you this Mod's opinion, making baseless claims against Vympel does not make you look good. Vympel has been involved in some heated argumenst and out right flame wars and I never ONCE saw him HOS anything that didn;t need to be HOS'd and that includes flame wars he's been involved in and I should know because we've been at opposite sides of flaming during the war.

So, I'm sorry if this wasn't what you were looking for but I've been watching these TA debates from afar and Vympel has handled himself honorably and well.

I simply don't like to see a mod tanrnsihed like that just because you're on the other side of a debate.

And as to my position on this matter. Manuals should be considered pretty close to canon (though they do tend to change sometimes) ingame and cutscenes definately canon and I would be EXTREMELY wary of fan generated facts and figures like fanfics, especially considering some the the TA wanking I've seen mentioned in these series of threads as well as PR stuff and fluff should be treated with a tendency to ignore.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-07-07 12:07pm

Wait, wouldn't the task of determining canonicity, in the absence of the original team of developers, return to the company holding the copyright i.e. Infogrames?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-07 12:17pm

Wow, more Dark Hellion-inspired bullshit as he runs away
from the severe smackdown that the HAB and in particular
me and Vympel delivered on him....

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-07-07 12:22pm

Yes Hellion, now that I've 'found' this I'll HOS it. Luckily, Stravo has already called you on that.

In the case of Total Annihilation, I have already presented a specific challenge in the Total Annihilation canon thread- namely:

the manual versus the game. The two are incompatible. You have the manual claiming plasma balls of 10 million degrees or some such, and you have the game having units being damaged by burning trees. Unless these trees are burning at several million degrees, I don't see how anyone can look at the manual asides from the utter rubbish it is. If 'Cavedog' (I love it how it's described as some sort of mythical, monolithic entity) had been serious, or even remotely interested in the manual that shipped with the game, you'd figure they'd remember a tiny detail like the trees being harmless.

You will answer that in that thread.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2003-07-07 12:23pm

Uraniun235 wrote:Wait, wouldn't the task of determining canonicity, in the absence of the original team of developers, return to the company holding the copyright i.e. Infogrames?

Yes, if Infogrames owns the TA intellectual property then they determine canon policy. You could ask them, if you wanted.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-07-09 04:46pm

Ok.
It seems that much of the consensus of this board is that things from ingame are very pick and choose. The limitations of a game engine are very arguable, as, opposed to special affect, no amount of money or technology can handle all the problems a game engine will encounter.
Therefore, the canon order seems to be heading towards..
Ingame movies
Game manuel (barring massive incosistancy with ingame)
Ingame
Fluff

And can a mod please move this back to Other scifi, as it is worthless as a gaming topic and only has any merit in the context of sci-fi debating.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-07-09 10:40pm

Dark Hellion wrote: And can a mod please move this back to Other scifi, as it is worthless as a gaming topic and only has any merit in the context of sci-fi debating.

How about we just LOCK IT, BITCH.

CONCESSION ACCEPTED FUCKTARD.

+1 POST