Gay Rights?

OT: anything goes!

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Post by Darth Wong »

Howedar wrote:Mike, I respect your opinion. I am not going to argue this one because it is just that, personal opinion.
From your side, yes. From my side, I am pointing out that you cannot "simplify" the situation by creating three levels of marital status rather than two. It takes a lot of bullshit to pretend that this is just an "opinion".
If you want to take my existance as a white christian heterosexual and use it to discredit me, go right ahead.
Interesting how I didn't bring up your religion, yet you trot this bullshit out anyway. Whatever psychological projections you are performing right now have nothing to do with the subject. You advocate appeasement of the religious bigots as a "solution", using the same logic that you use to advocate appeasement of race bigots.
If you want to post a gaudy "concession accepted" picture, you can do that as well. Debating this issue is only going to lead to hard feelings, as we don't have numbers to throw at each other.
I'd say you already have hard feelings, since you have repeatedly tried to use this thread as an excuse to accuse me of various psychological issues.
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Post by Sobbastchianno »

Here is a way to debate the terminology. Either a couple is married or is not. That is the LEGAL definition of marital status (marriage and every derivation of the word is used in legal documentation). Adding a different word just to make some more comfortable is absolutely rediculous, not to mention that Mike is right and it does create a third status, an "other than."

Howedar, I don't care that you are a white, heterosexual, Christian. I know several who fit that description who wonder why gays haven't yet been allowed to marry, and have no problem with the user of the word "MARRIAGE" to describe such a union. If we used a word other than marriage to describe a legal homosexual contractual union (say that four times fast), then would we use words other than husband and wife to describe our spouses? It does indeed get more complicated.

Very simply, if it walks like a duck, flies like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. By any other name, it would still be a duck, so why add another term to confuse the hell out of people. If there were another term added, gays and lesbians would be accused of complicating things. Why should I be accused of complicating things when it would have all been done to appease the fundementalists?
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Post by Howedar »

Darth Wong wrote:
Howedar wrote:Mike, I respect your opinion. I am not going to argue this one because it is just that, personal opinion.
From your side, yes. From my side, I am pointing out that you cannot "simplify" the situation by creating three levels of marital status rather than two. It takes a lot of bullshit to pretend that this is just an "opinion".
Its no different from today. While not married myself, and therefore talking out of my ass, my understanding is that you drop down to the County offices and buy your marriage certificate. Any ceremony you want is essentially optional.
If you want to take my existance as a white christian heterosexual and use it to discredit me, go right ahead.
Interesting how I didn't bring up your religion, yet you trot this bullshit out anyway. Whatever psychological projections you are performing right now have nothing to do with the subject. You advocate appeasement of the religious bigots as a "solution", using the same logic that you use to advocate appeasement of race bigots.
I knew religion would enter into this at some point if it hadn't already, so I figured I'd make it easy for you.
If you want to post a gaudy "concession accepted" picture, you can do that as well. Debating this issue is only going to lead to hard feelings, as we don't have numbers to throw at each other.
I'd say you already have hard feelings, since you have repeatedly tried to use this thread as an excuse to accuse me of various psychological issues.
I mean this in all honesty. Do you really feel like I'm accusing you of various psychological issues? If you do, I apologise. I'm simply trying to say that we have differences of opinion and you can go on with this debate however you wish. If you read anything more into my posts, I apologise.
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Post by BrYaN19kc »

Sobbastchianno wrote:Very simply, if it walks like a duck, flies like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck. By any other name, it would still be a duck, so why add another term to confuse the hell out of people. If there were another term added, gays and lesbians would be accused of complicating things. Why should I be accused of complicating things when it would have all been done to appease the fundementalists?

Welllll, to complicate the name thing just a little bit.... My partner, Matt, and I are registered with the state as a Limited Liability Company or LLC. We have been together four years. Yes, we are both 23 - a lot of people lost their bets this anniversary. LOL! Neway - we look at the LLC as a step toward marriage. The LLC allows us to have community property, file ONE tax return, qualify for group insurance if we want it, control assets in the event of death and so on and so forth. It gives us a lot of pull in the legal department.

Recently, we were both in a good friend of ours wedding party and we both also realize that we DO WANT the ceremonial rights that come with partnership. We pretty much have the legal end of it, but the idea of a ceremony and acknowledging your feelings with family and friends is something that has become most important to us.

For a while I was prepared to say that Marriage for same-sex couples was in the future and a definite possibility, but I think a lot of people out there still have strong reservations about allowing this to happen.

I'm sure that some day it will be a reality - but I also think that the reality of it is a lot further in the future than I originally thought. To me this is a great disappointment.

I believe that we (Matt and I) should have every right granted to us as a str8 couple has bestowed upon them. Not more and definitely not less.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Howedar wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:From your side, yes. From my side, I am pointing out that you cannot "simplify" the situation by creating three levels of marital status rather than two. It takes a lot of bullshit to pretend that this is just an "opinion".
Its no different from today. While not married myself, and therefore talking out of my ass, my understanding is that you drop down to the County offices and buy your marriage certificate. Any ceremony you want is essentially optional.
The problem is your assertion that the marriage certificate must be renamed "legal union certificate" and the person be disallowed from referring to himself as "married".
Interesting how I didn't bring up your religion, yet you trot this bullshit out anyway. Whatever psychological projections you are performing right now have nothing to do with the subject. You advocate appeasement of the religious bigots as a "solution", using the same logic that you use to advocate appeasement of race bigots.
I knew religion would enter into this at some point if it hadn't already, so I figured I'd make it easy for you.
In case this hasn't occurred to you before, religion only enters a debate insofar as it is relevant. Your religious views are irrelevant unless you try to use them to justify something.
I mean this in all honesty. Do you really feel like I'm accusing you of various psychological issues? If you do, I apologise.
Protesting that you don't involve yourself in conflicts just for the sake of generating conflict (and implying that I do; something I questioned immediately and which you did not answer) or saying that I'm going to post some "gaudy concession accepted pic" if you don't answer right away is pretty obviously a series of personal attacks. Either that, or you have the communication skills of a hamster, because it sure as hell came off that way.
I'm simply trying to say that we have differences of opinion and you can go on with this debate however you wish. If you read anything more into my posts, I apologise.
Perhaps you wouldn't have to apologize if you didn't play these kinds of snarky rhetorical games in the first place, hmmmm?

In the meantime, this is more than mere opinion and you know it. You are turning two levels of marital status into three, and claiming that I am somehow wrong for saying that this will NOT simplify the situation. How many times must I point out that this is bullshit?
Last edited by Darth Wong on 2003-07-10 12:42am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Darth Wong »

BrYaN19kc wrote:For a while I was prepared to say that Marriage for same-sex couples was in the future and a definite possibility, but I think a lot of people out there still have strong reservations about allowing this to happen.

I'm sure that some day it will be a reality - but I also think that the reality of it is a lot further in the future than I originally thought. To me this is a great disappointment.
Move to Canada :D
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Post by BrYaN19kc »

Darth Wong wrote:
BrYaN19kc wrote:For a while I was prepared to say that Marriage for same-sex couples was in the future and a definite possibility, but I think a lot of people out there still have strong reservations about allowing this to happen.

I'm sure that some day it will be a reality - but I also think that the reality of it is a lot further in the future than I originally thought. To me this is a great disappointment.
Move to Canada :D
HEHE!!! Believe me, that conversation has come up! :D
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Post by Sobbastchianno »

While I know people who have formed an LLC to gain some of the legal benefits, it still does NOT make you next of kin, so no, you only have part of the legal end down.

You cannot make decisions for Matt when he is unable to do so for medical reasons, you do not have the right to determine how (or if) he would be buried, and your rights of inheritance through the LLC are definitely challengeable by his biological family, so they are not as automatic as you may believe. I have a brother who specializes in probate and has discussed this issue with me ad nauseum, so I am well versed on it.

I like your sentiment that we should be able to have the same ceremonial thing going that straight couples do. I was surprised to learn that even in Vermont, clergy is licensed to perform marriages, they are NOT licensed to perform a Civil Union. That has to be done by the Justice of the Peace or a Judge. That is it. Sucks, huh?
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Post by Howedar »

Darth Wong wrote:
Howedar wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:From your side, yes. From my side, I am pointing out that you cannot "simplify" the situation by creating three levels of marital status rather than two. It takes a lot of bullshit to pretend that this is just an "opinion".
Its no different from today. While not married myself, and therefore talking out of my ass, my understanding is that you drop down to the County offices and buy your marriage certificate. Any ceremony you want is essentially optional.
The problem is your assertion that the marriage certificate must be renamed "legal union certificate" and the person be disallowed from referring to himself as "married".
I did not say that. I said that I'd simply remove the word from law. What you want to call yourself is up to you. I rather expect people wouldn't change worth a damn, anyway.
In case this hasn't occurred to you before, religion only enters a debate insofar as it is relevant. Your religious views are irrelevant unless you try to use them to justify something.
It has occured to me, but (not to point fingers) typically religious views are paraded out on this forum regardless of whether or not they are relevent.
Protesting that you don't involve yourself in conflicts just for the sake of generating conflict (and implying that I do; something I questioned immediately and which you did not answer) or saying that I'm going to post some "gaudy concession accepted pic" if you don't answer right away is pretty obviously a series of personal attacks. Either that, or you have the communication skills of a hamster, because it sure as hell came off that way.
I'll take that as a "yes."
Perhaps you wouldn't have to apologize if you didn't play these kinds of snarky rhetorical games in the first place, hmmmm?
Perhaps I wouldn't have to apologize if you didn't have that massive persecution complex.
In the meantime, this is more than mere opinion and you know it. You are turning two levels of marital status into three, and claiming that I am somehow wrong for saying that this will NOT simplify the situation. How many times must I point out that this is bullshit?
See above. In Oregon, there are (depending on how you look at it) two or three levels of maritial status. Unmarried, legally married (ceremony not required - just a marriage certificate), and married in some sort of ceremony. My idea would change none of this.

Your area may be different, of course.
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Post by Sobbastchianno »

BrYaN19kc wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
BrYaN19kc wrote:For a while I was prepared to say that Marriage for same-sex couples was in the future and a definite possibility, but I think a lot of people out there still have strong reservations about allowing this to happen.

I'm sure that some day it will be a reality - but I also think that the reality of it is a lot further in the future than I originally thought. To me this is a great disappointment.
Move to Canada :D
HEHE!!! Believe me, that conversation has come up! :D
It has at my house, too, but I hate the north. I grew up in New Hampshire, so I have definitely had enough of winter. That is why I now live in Houston, TX.

I enjoy being an American and I guess the reason I won't move to Canada is because I was born in the US, just as surely as I was born gay, and if I am not willing to try to change my sexual orientation to please others, which I can't anyway, why should I change my citizenship, which I could do, to please others. It would be another form of placating to the fundies.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Howedar wrote:
The problem is your assertion that the marriage certificate must be renamed "legal union certificate" and the person be disallowed from referring to himself as "married".
I did not say that. I said that I'd simply remove the word from law. What you want to call yourself is up to you. I rather expect people wouldn't change worth a damn, anyway.
Then why demand this change? And how would you go about removing it from law without renaming the certificate and legal contract, which would in turn make it fraud to declare yourself as "married"?
It has occured to me, but (not to point fingers) typically religious views are paraded out on this forum regardless of whether or not they are relevent.
You have whined about your imagined persecution of religious people on the board many times in the past. I see the trend continues.
Perhaps you wouldn't have to apologize if you didn't play these kinds of snarky rhetorical games in the first place, hmmmm?
Perhaps I wouldn't have to apologize if you didn't have that massive persecution complex.
I see you would rather continue your snarky rhetorical games of attacking, pretending you meant nothing by it, attacking again, etc. You like to make these snarky, subtle little digs about me whenever the subject of religion comes up, perhaps because you're an evasive asshole. If you have something to say, grow a fucking pair of balls and say it. Otherwise, shut your goddamned pie hole.
In the meantime, this is more than mere opinion and you know it. You are turning two levels of marital status into three, and claiming that I am somehow wrong for saying that this will NOT simplify the situation. How many times must I point out that this is bullshit?
See above. In Oregon, there are (depending on how you look at it) two or three levels of maritial status. Unmarried, legally married (ceremony not required - just a marriage certificate), and married in some sort of ceremony. My idea would change none of this.

Your area may be different, of course.
So you propose that this policy should be universal and that it would change nothing because that's the way it is in Oregon? :roll:
Last edited by Darth Wong on 2003-07-10 01:03am, edited 1 time in total.
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"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Post by Sobbastchianno »

In the meantime, this is more than mere opinion and you know it. You are turning two levels of marital status into three, and claiming that I am somehow wrong for saying that this will NOT simplify the situation. How many times must I point out that this is bullshit?
See above. In Oregon, there are (depending on how you look at it) two or three levels of maritial status. Unmarried, legally married (ceremony not required - just a marriage certificate), and married in some sort of ceremony. My idea would change none of this.

Your area may be different, of course.

Howedar,

I have to be honest with you, I have lived in twelve of these United States (admittedly, not Oregon), and I have NEVER heard of a state differentiating between a marriage where a ceremony was performed and where it wasn't. I can't say for certain, but I think you are up to your neck in shit on this one, because unless you can quote the statute that states these "stati," I think you are full of shit and will say anything at this juncture to try to prove your point about not making things more complicated, and think it will go unchallenged.

Well, I am throwing down the gauntlet and challenging you to find the statute and where I can locate it online.
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Post by BrYaN19kc »

Sobbastchianno wrote:While I know people who have formed an LLC to gain some of the legal benefits, it still does NOT make you next of kin, so no, you only have part of the legal end down.

You cannot make decisions for Matt when he is unable to do so for medical reasons, you do not have the right to determine how (or if) he would be buried, and your rights of inheritance through the LLC are definitely challengeable by his biological family, so they are not as automatic as you may believe. I have a brother who specializes in probate and has discussed this issue with me ad nauseum, so I am well versed on it.

I like your sentiment that we should be able to have the same ceremonial thing going that straight couples do. I was surprised to learn that even in Vermont, clergy is licensed to perform marriages, they are NOT licensed to perform a Civil Union. That has to be done by the Justice of the Peace or a Judge. That is it. Sucks, huh?
Yes, property held by an LLC can be contested, but so can the property of any married couple. For example: Matt and I own 2/3 of a lake property and my dad owns 1/3. Our 2/3 is under the LLC and draw up in those papers at the time of purchase is the clause that in the event of a partner’s death that 1/3 will revert to the surviving partner. Our lawyer told us that the LLC purchased the 2/3’s of the property not any one individual prior to the formation of the LLC. Although he did say that property included in the LLC prior to its formation can be in a bit of a gray area in some cases. For us, that isn’t a problem. We have one automobile that was purchased prior to the LLC. Although this is a far cry from being full proof, it’s pretty good. My dad is an accountant and worked with us on this, a long thought process went into it as the paper work was drawn up.

One thing is for sure, with us paying a mortgage on the 2/3 and a contractual agreement to buy out my dad’s third, no family member in their right mind is going to take over that debt!
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Post by Howedar »

Sobbastchianno wrote: I have to be honest with you, I have lived in twelve of these United States (admittedly, not Oregon), and I have NEVER heard of a state differentiating between a marriage where a ceremony was performed and where it wasn't.
Perhaps my phrasing was poor. The certificate makes no differentiation one way or another. Or so my father says. I don't exactly have personal experience in marriage.
I can't say for certain, but I think you are up to your neck in shit on this one, because unless you can quote the statute that states these "stati," I think you are full of shit and will say anything at this juncture to try to prove your point about not making things more complicated, and think it will go unchallenged.
You dare to question not only my credibility, but my honesty?
Well, I am throwing down the gauntlet and challenging you to find the statute and where I can locate it online.
And a very merry "fuck you" to you too. According to US Marriage Laws, a justice of the peace can sign a marriage certificate to formally wed a couple.


I see you're new here. I'll give you a hint. Regardless of whether you agree with people or not, the best way to make friends is not to accuse them of falsifying evidence to support their case.
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Post by Sobbastchianno »

BrYaN19kc wrote:
Sobbastchianno wrote:While I know people who have formed an LLC to gain some of the legal benefits, it still does NOT make you next of kin, so no, you only have part of the legal end down.

You cannot make decisions for Matt when he is unable to do so for medical reasons, you do not have the right to determine how (or if) he would be buried, and your rights of inheritance through the LLC are definitely challengeable by his biological family, so they are not as automatic as you may believe. I have a brother who specializes in probate and has discussed this issue with me ad nauseum, so I am well versed on it.

I like your sentiment that we should be able to have the same ceremonial thing going that straight couples do. I was surprised to learn that even in Vermont, clergy is licensed to perform marriages, they are NOT licensed to perform a Civil Union. That has to be done by the Justice of the Peace or a Judge. That is it. Sucks, huh?
Yes, property held by an LLC can be contested, but so can the property of any married couple. For example: Matt and I own 2/3 of a lake property and my dad owns 1/3. Our 2/3 is under the LLC and draw up in those papers at the time of purchase is the clause that in the event of a partner’s death that 1/3 will revert to the surviving partner. Our lawyer told us that the LLC purchased the 2/3’s of the property not any one individual prior to the formation of the LLC. Although he did say that property included in the LLC prior to its formation can be in a bit of a gray area in some cases. For us, that isn’t a problem. We have one automobile that was purchased prior to the LLC. Although this is a far cry from being full proof, it’s pretty good. My dad is an accountant and worked with us on this, a long thought process went into it as the paper work was drawn up.

One thing is for sure, with us paying a mortgage on the 2/3 and a contractual agreement to buy out my dad’s third, no family member in their right mind is going to take over that debt!
I am not sure how easily automatic inheritance of marriage can be contested, but I believe it is damn near impossible.

My parents were married. My father died six years before my mother. They had been married thrity three years. There is no way in hell that his mother, who was still alive, could have even brought a case to court to sue my mother for the house, which was in both their names, because of the automatic inheritance rights of spouses. No one would even question it, especially after thrity three years.

However, I have seen same-sex partners who have been together longer than that (I know a couple who have been together for 40 years), and one of them will die, and even with a will, the family of the deceased could come right in and unceremoniously claim at least half of the estate, or all of it if the surviving partner cannot prove ownership of any of it.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Howedar wrote:
Well, I am throwing down the gauntlet and challenging you to find the statute and where I can locate it online.
And a very merry "fuck you" to you too. According to US Marriage Laws, a justice of the peace can sign a marriage certificate to formally wed a couple.
And how does this support your claim that civil marriage and religious marriage are different "levels" of marital status in Oregon?
I see you're new here. I'll give you a hint. Regardless of whether you agree with people or not, the best way to make friends is not to accuse them of falsifying evidence to support their case.
You're not new here, but here's a hint for you: before acting uppity toward someone for not knowing the rules, make sure that your rebuttal actually supports your position instead of being completely irrelevant. He challenged you to back up your claim that three separate levels of marital status would not change anything, and you did not do so.
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Post by Sobbastchianno »

Howedar, You asked how dare I question not only your integrity, but your honesty? Quite easily, you have not shown yourself to have a shred of either.


As for your advice to me, although it is appreciated, it was also unnecessary. I have been on this planet for 38 years, and I can tell a blow hard when I read one. Those who debate intelligently never receive any negative comment from me, whether I agree with them or not. Those who make statements and then "back them up" with insults when they are challenged, need to have their diaper changed, ass powdered, and put back in their incubator so they can grow up. Any comments on what I have said in this paragraph, please send it via private message.

By the way, I already know a Justice of the Peace can marry people. I never stated they couldn't. However, a priest or minister is not allowed to preside over a civil union, only a Justice of the Peace or a Judge may do that, which is EXACTLY what I stated earlier.

I guess I should not hold my breath waiting for that statute.
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Post by Howedar »

Darth Wong wrote: And how does this support your claim that civil marriage and religious marriage are different "levels" of marital status in Oregon?
Okay, nobody's picking up on this. I'll say it slower.

A ceremony is not required in Oregon. One can get a marriage certificate and be married by a judge. A ceremony is not required, and having one is entirely optional for the couple. This is exactly the same as the situation under my idea, except that marriage is called something else. Whether you call it two levels or three, things would not change.

Can you explain to me how they'd change? The wording would be different. Thats all.
You're not new here, but here's a hint for you: before acting uppity toward someone for not knowing the rules, make sure that your rebuttal actually supports your position instead of being completely irrelevant. He challenged you to back up your claim that three separate levels of marital status would not change anything, and you did not do so.
If we're making the choice to count a ceremony as a third "level", then it does exactly that.
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Sobbastchianno
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Post by Sobbastchianno »

Howedar wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: And how does this support your claim that civil marriage and religious marriage are different "levels" of marital status in Oregon?
Okay, nobody's picking up on this. I'll say it slower.

A ceremony is not required in Oregon. One can get a marriage certificate and be married by a judge. A ceremony is not required, and having one is entirely optional for the couple. This is exactly the same as the situation under my idea, except that marriage is called something else. Whether you call it two levels or three, things would not change.

Can you explain to me how they'd change? The wording would be different. Thats all.

Then you would have three stati, single, married, and whatever else you want to call a same-sex marriage. It would end up being that way on any form that you fill out where you are questioned on MARITAL status. Unless of course you are just looking to take the word marriage out of the English vocabulary. Of course, there is likely less chance of that than there is of getting same-sex marriage legalized. Besides, why change the vocabulary? The word and the system alreday exist. Isn't it less complicated to just add another group of people able to participate to that definition?

Basically, it is this simple, doesn't matter where it is done, you are either married, or you are not. Doesn't matter the gender of the two people either and it makes NO LOGICAL SENSE to call a marriage between two people of the same sex something different simply because of the gender of the people involved. That would be like using a different name because people involved are of mixed race (as my parents were). Their marriage was still a marriage. To call it something else for the comfort level of people who aren't even involved in their life is insultin, ridiculous, and just plain senseless.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Howedar wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:And how does this support your claim that civil marriage and religious marriage are different "levels" of marital status in Oregon?
Okay, nobody's picking up on this. I'll say it slower.
I like the way you assume that if nobody buys your bullshit, they must not be understanding it, rather than simply disagreeing with it.
A ceremony is not required in Oregon. One can get a marriage certificate and be married by a judge.
Well, duh. That's true everywhere. However, the fact that there are two ways to get married does not mean that they are separate "levels of marital status". Am I speaking slowly enough for you? There are countless ways to get killed; does this mean there are different levels of death?
A ceremony is not required, and having one is entirely optional for the couple. This is exactly the same as the situation under my idea, except that marriage is called something else. Whether you call it two levels or three, things would not change.
Wrong, dumb-ass. You are saying that a civil union should not be referred to as marriage, while a religious one should. Under the current system, the two are legally equivalent. Under your scheme, only one of them qualifies for the use of the word "marriage", hence they do not share the same "marital status". Do you know what "marital status" means?
Can you explain to me how they'd change? The wording would be different. Thats all.
Gee, the wording would be different in LAW. Perhaps no one has ever explained to you that the law is all about fucking words?
You're not new here, but here's a hint for you: before acting uppity toward someone for not knowing the rules, make sure that your rebuttal actually supports your position instead of being completely irrelevant. He challenged you to back up your claim that three separate levels of marital status would not change anything, and you did not do so.
If we're making the choice to count a ceremony as a third "level", then it does exactly that.
Maybe if you'd actually gotten married instead of just shooting your mouth off like an idiot, you'd know that you have to sign the legal contract regardless of whether there's a ceremony. The important part of the marriage is the legal contract, not the ceremony, dumb-ass. If anyone wants to redefine terms to create another level, it should be the religious bigots. Perhaps they can make up a new term called "godly union". But the term "marriage" is not property of Christianity, so they have no right to demand exclusive use of it, particularly when it has been used as a legal term for longer than any of us have been alive.
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Post by darthdavid »

Let's see. Let gays get married. Drop the offending fundies from 18 stories up into a pile of used diapers. Problem solved.
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Post by Howedar »

Darth Wong wrote: Well, duh. That's true everywhere. However, the fact that there are two ways to get married does not mean that they are separate "levels of marital status". Am I speaking slowly enough for you? There are countless ways to get killed; does this mean there are different levels of death?
Okay then, we'll call it two levels. I don't see the need for three, but then you were the one to first mention such a third level.
Wrong, dumb-ass. You are saying that a civil union should not be referred to as marriage, while a religious one should.
No, I'm saying that I'd just change the word in the laws, then if need be define it to be exactly the same as marriage. I don't give a flying fuck what people call it.
Under the current system, the two are legally equivalent. Under your scheme, only one of them qualifies for the use of the word "marriage", hence they do not share the same "marital status". Do you know what "marital status" means?
If you want to play semantics, then we can play semantics.
Gee, the wording would be different in LAW. Perhaps no one has ever explained to you that the law is all about fucking words?
No, apparently not. If a statute is exactly the same save for one word being exchanged for a synonym, does that mean the statute has a whole new meaning?
Maybe if you'd actually gotten married instead of just shooting your mouth off like an idiot, you'd know that you have to sign the legal contract regardless of whether there's a ceremony.
I am quite aware of that already, thanks.
The important part of the marriage is the legal contract, not the ceremony, dumb-ass.
Earth to Mike: I know. I already said that. I said that you could get married where I live independant of any ceremony. You sign the contract, the judge signs the contract, and poof! You're married.
If anyone wants to redefine terms to create another level, it should be the religious bigots. Perhaps they can make up a new term called "godly union". But the term "marriage" is not property of Christianity, so they have no right to demand exclusive use of it, particularly when it has been used as a legal term for longer than any of us have been alive.
If they can just call it a "godly union" or a "happy free-sex act" or whatever the fuck they're going to call it, then its okay? Yet if you change the specific word in the statute, that is evil and forbidden? I'm not trying to play dumb here: I really don't see what the fuck it matters whether the law says "marriage" or, say, "legal union".

I guess my position boils down to this. If it doesn't actually affect life, and if it prevents antagonism so we can all move on to something more important than petty bickering about legal semantics, then I'm all for it.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Fuck fundy bigots.

I too am against any form of appeasment. I get into aguments on ths bloody subject daily, I have a list of founding father quotes to smack down those that think this is a christian nation.

Under the equal access act we have a RiGHT to be treated equally by te government, and we arent getting that. We are being marginalize and demonized by a vocal and well funded minority that has taken control through vote buying and extortion, key positions in our government. And this must not be tolerated.
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Post by Sobbastchianno »

Howedar wrote:I guess my position boils down to this. If it doesn't actually affect life, and if it prevents antagonism so we can all move on to something more important than petty bickering about legal semantics, then I'm all for it.
Howedar, I personally have no problem with getting along, I truly don't. However, this isn't one of those issues that is going to go away quietly, and honestly, I feel it is better to just expand the system than to create a separate parallel system. As a taxpayer, it would upset me more to have to have two sets of laws that govern two identical systems, than to allow all who want to marry, to do so under the current system as it exists.

Having a different "name" for same-sex marriage is still making it an "other than." and there is no way you are ever going to remove the word "marriage" from the English vocabulary or American Law.

You said "if it doesn't actually affect life and if it prevents antagonism..." I would like to know how this doesn't affect life. Marriage is at the very core of our lives and our society. It creates a legal kinship where none existed before. That is pretty powerful stuff if you ask me, and any discussion about its definition and scope are hardly what one could call petty.

As for the antagonism, what can I say? There is always going to be antagoism in the world, and I believe in reducing it as much as possible, but not to the point of placating people and doing things in such a way where they feel holier than thou. As far as I can see, fundies don't want a same sex marriage called "marriage" because then we will be on par with them. However, a "separate but equal" civil union system would still make them feel superior. I refuse to feed into that, because THAT is antagonistic toward me.

Perhaps it is only petty because any argument that you thought you had has definitely lost steam. In fact, it has been stopped ice cold.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

IIRC the supreme court ruled in Brown vs. Board of Education that seprate but equal was inherently not equal... and therefore unconstitutional.
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