It's raining asteroids! TESB topic.

[Connor MacLeod]

Possibly in a situation where the contents of the ship are too valuable to risk damage to. For example, the Falcon escaping from Mos Eisly in ANH. The use of flak bursts could allow for a more controlled dissapation of a ship sheilds.

You misunderstand. Deflectors have a certain minimum threshold that must be overcome (per section really, since "gaps" exist in shields). If you "detonate" the bolt like a bomb, you're not only spreading that energy over a much larger surface area (making it easier to dissipate, as the intensity is much lower unless you substantially ramp up the yield) but you also only deliver a fraction of the energy of a normal bolt. Given that concentrated fire is exclusively employed to penetrate shields, any sort of flak burst is not only wasteful, it is probably going to be useless (particularily at a distance.)

Besides which, why bother to "control" the dissipation. Punching through the shields with raw power (overcoming the absorption/reradiation thresholds) is far more effective. And if you want to use lower power shots to drain shields, you can alwaays go for reduced power/ "splinter shots" - something we not only know to exist, but also the fact it allows for increased rate of fire. You could just as easily control the rate of dissipation by using a larger number of lower-powered bolts, and you wouldn't waste energy.

On top of that, flak bursting would be supremely effective in ground combat (such as oh.. . Geonosis?) Yet we hardly ever see it used. I suppose one might argue Boba Fett would have used flak bursts on Kamino against Obi-Wan, but thats admittedly more easily explained.

Now the two bolts forming the "X" in front of the Falcon are about to " flak burst". How could this possibly be shield interaction? Brian Young believes these to be more asteroids being hit, but I disagree because with the amount of bloom we should be able to see the asteroids themselves before the bolts impact.

Its admittedly more difficult to rationalize with my theory, but Mike's theory would cover it well.

[Mad]

I do have a problem with this image being used to scale an asteroid. Basically, because that would require the asteroid to have been white, as it couldn't be seen despite having a white ISD directly behind it....

[Lord Poe]

On top of that, flak bursting would be supremely effective in ground combat (such as oh.. . Geonosis?) Yet we hardly ever see it used.

What do you mean, "hardly ever"? We saw it on the ground combat with the walkers around the speeders at Hoth (and it was mentioned in the novelization) and we DID see flak bursts in the air at Geonosis.

[Ender]

Either way, in that image, it's not clear what's part of the Executor and what's merely an artifact from lossy analog compression.

Well you could always go watch your DVD again

The OT isn't out on DVD numbnuts.

At this point I'm just hoping that the "digital remastering" and whatnot that Lucas likes makes that scene much clearer when the thing does come out on DVD and this whole thing can be laid to rest one way or the other.

[Ender]

On top of that, flak bursting would be supremely effective in ground combat (such as oh.. . Geonosis?) Yet we hardly ever see it used.

What do you mean, "hardly ever"? We saw it on the ground combat with the walkers around the speeders at Hoth

Walkers are shielded

(and it was mentioned in the novelization)

IIRC the novel metnions flak in the asteroid chase scene, not before

and we DID see flak bursts in the air at Geonosis.

LAAT's are shielded

[JodoForce]

Even in space combat flakbursts are useful if they are set to explode after passing the range where the target is known to be (hence it can be deduced to have missed the target). Then at least it does some damage it wouldn't otherwise have done. Don't know if that's how they behave though.

[Phil Skayhan]

You misunderstand. Deflectors have a certain minimum threshold that must be overcome (per section really, since "gaps" exist in shields). If you "detonate" the bolt like a bomb, you're not only spreading that energy over a much larger surface area (making it easier to dissipate, as the intensity is much lower unless you substantially ramp up the yield) but you also only deliver a fraction of the energy of a normal bolt. Given that concentrated fire is exclusively employed to penetrate shields, any sort of flak burst is not only wasteful, it is probably going to be useless (particularily at a distance.)

Besides which, why bother to "control" the dissipation. Punching through the shields with raw power (overcoming the absorption/reradiation thresholds) is far more effective. And if you want to use lower power shots to drain shields, you can alwaays go for reduced power/ "splinter shots" - something we not only know to exist, but also the fact it allows for increased rate of fire. You could just as easily control the rate of dissipation by using a larger number of lower-powered bolts, and you wouldn't waste energy.

I agree with you that that would make more sense. But there seems to be a pattern in Imperial firing when they want to capture a ship. First, fire around the ship using "flak-burst" which drains the shields. Then one shot specifically targeted which causes the loss of at least one section of the shield. We see this with the Tantive IV in the beginning of ANH and the Falcon escaping the asteroid field in ESB. Also, when the Falcon makes it run from Mos Eisley in ANH, there are no direct hits witnessed (we see flashes directly in front of the cockpit ), yet shields were being drained.

Obviously, what I consider flak you can see as shield interaction in the above examples (except perhaps the last considering the location we see the flashes). But in each case, why didn't the Imperials do as you suggest they should do?

Now the two bolts forming the "X" in front of the Falcon are about to " flak burst". How could this possibly be shield interaction? Brian Young believes these to be more asteroids being hit, but I disagree because with the amount of bloom we should be able to see the asteroids themselves before the bolts impact.

Its admittedly more difficult to rationalize with my theory, but Mike's theory would cover it well.

Apparently, I missed this discussion the last time it went around so if you have a link available I'd appreciate it. I'm not aware of this being on Mike's tech pages. Unless you're referring to the TL Commentaries. I'm open minded on this subject, though clearly I'm leaning toward "flak bursts".

[Illuminatus Primus]

LAAT's are shielded

Even better, the bolts often go THROUGH the so-called flak bursts.

[His Divine Shadow]

Possibly in a situation where the contents of the ship are too valuable to risk damage to. For example, the Falcon escaping from Mos Eisly in ANH. The use of flak bursts could allow for a more controlled dissapation of a ship sheilds.

Well it's problematic given that so little energy is released from this reaction that you might as well be using an E-Web.

[His Divine Shadow]

On top of that, flak bursting would be supremely effective in ground combat (such as oh.. . Geonosis?) Yet we hardly ever see it used.

What do you mean, "hardly ever"? We saw it on the ground combat with the walkers around the speeders at Hoth (and it was mentioned in the novelization) and we DID see flak bursts in the air at Geonosis.

I'm not sure they're so much flakbursts as much as the weapon hitting some minute particles in the atmosphere and incinerating them.

[His Divine Shadow]

On top of that, flak bursting would be supremely effective in ground combat (such as oh.. . Geonosis?) Yet we hardly ever see it used.

What do you mean, "hardly ever"? We saw it on the ground combat with the walkers around the speeders at Hoth (and it was mentioned in the novelization) and we DID see flak bursts in the air at Geonosis.

I'm not sure they're so much flakbursts as much as the weapon hitting some minute particles in the atmosphere and incinerating them.

And there's also the fact that some vehicles, as mentioned, are also shielded.

[His Divine Shadow]

Now the two bolts forming the "X" in front of the Falcon are about to " flak burst". How could this possibly be shield interaction? Brian Young believes these to be more asteroids being hit, but I disagree because with the amount of bloom we should be able to see the asteroids themselves before the bolts impact.

Frankly, I am suprised that we see even the large asteroids as well as we do in the movie, we really ought not see asteroids that small.

[Mad]

Frankly, I am suprised that we see even the large asteroids as well as we do in the movie, we really ought not see asteroids that small.

What about the "asteroid" that was directly in front of the ISD (as noted in my previous post)? We couldn't see it, but it had a white -- not black -- background... meaning either it was a white asteroid, or the explosion was from something else.

[Warspite]

Frankly, I am suprised that we see even the large asteroids as well as we do in the movie, we really ought not see asteroids that small.

What about the "asteroid" that was directly in front of the ISD (as noted in my previous post)? We couldn't see it, but it had a white -- not black -- background... meaning either it was a white asteroid, or the explosion was from something else.

Probably something else, all asteroids were iron-based, and even ball os ice tend to be very dirty, so dirty in fact they aren't white,maybe it's an asteroid exploding against the ISD, or being destroyed by a bolt.
We most not forget, that there may be a lot of small chunks the camera doesn't catch, it's an old asteroid field, with millions of impacts occuring.

[SPOOFE]

Apparently you didn't read the words that went with the image in my post, and missed a lot of posts above too.

I missed nothing. You did not read what I said. In the video of that scene, the bridge appears to just... well... disappear. Obviously, it cannot just disappear, unless you wish to claim that the asteroid somehow emitted a cloaking field or pushed the bridge into "subspace".

There should have been debris, pieces of the bridge tower, left. They should have been visible. They should have been VERY obvious, as the bridge is a very large structure.

So what happened to the pieces of the bridge? If it was destroyed, pieces would have been visible. Pieces were NOT visible. The only debris, aside from the "glowy" impact and the ensuing dust cloud, were white "flashes" that flew away from the impact site and towards the camera... in the exact opposite direction debris from the bridge tower would have gone.

So, my dear sir, I ask you again... what happened to the debris from the bridge tower's destruction?

[Lord Poe]

What do you mean, "hardly ever"? We saw it on the ground combat with the walkers around the speeders at Hoth

Walkers are shielded

The flak bursts happen all around the speeders approaching the walkers.

(and it was mentioned in the novelization)

IIRC the novel metnions flak in the asteroid chase scene, not before

TESB Novelization:

pg.217-218: Angrily, Luke fired his ship's guns at a walker, only to receive a hail of Imperial fire power that shook his speeder in a barrage of flak.

and we DID see flak bursts in the air at Geonosis.

LAAT's are shielded

How far do those shields extend?? They should be toppling people over on the ground if they stretch two ship lengths from the hull.

[Lord Poe]

I'm not sure they're so much flakbursts as much as the weapon hitting some minute particles in the atmosphere and incinerating them.

That's stretching things, don't you think?

And there's also the fact that some vehicles, as mentioned, are also shielded.

Speeders weren't shielded.

[His Divine Shadow]

That's stretching things, don't you think?

I don't think so, I think it's a less stretch than flakbursting really.

Flakbursting also causes alot of problems, I mean if they can flakburst, then the whole AOTC battle scene is utterly uneccesary, the Acclamator could simply fire a flakburst from one of it's 6MT laser cannons above the heads of the droid army and thats the end of that, the coreships with their 6KT Pd lasers could do the same, annihilating the republic army in a shot.

I really don't think they can flakburst, I think it's either limited atmospheric interaction, bolt/shield interaction or hitting asteroids, this I think is what they also refer to as flak, it also makes sense because the flak here is visually so low energetic that at most it's a few Megajoules, that really doesn't make sense I think when they could do ALOT better.

Speeders weren't shielded.

Nope, they weren't.

[Lord Poe]

He's also I think referring to the TESB novelization, which is more specific (although not specific enough to justify the ludicrous notion of energy bolts actually detonating like bombs.) ROTJ novel makes mention of flak bursting as well, IIRC.

Really?

TESB Novelization:

pg.231: The ship was beginning to lurch with the buffeting flak blasted at it by the fighters.

pg.270: It was all he could do to avoid the barrage of flak bursts rocketing toward the Falcon from the Imperial ship.

I'm starting to see a disturbing trend here. Our observations are supposed to take all canon into account, not override or ignore what we don't like.

[Lord Poe]

That's stretching things, don't you think?

I don't think so, I think it's a less stretch than flakbursting really.

What? Flakbursting is canon! Particulate matter in the atmosphere being hit by TL bolts is not.

Flakbursting also causes alot of problems, I mean if they can flakburst, then the whole AOTC battle scene is utterly uneccesary, the Acclamator could simply fire a flakburst from one of it's 6MT laser cannons above the heads of the droid army and thats the end of that, the coreships with their 6KT Pd lasers could do the same, annihilating the republic army in a shot.

Yes, and flattening the Jedi on the ground as well.

Precise fire was the better option in this case.

I really don't think they can flakburst, I think it's either limited atmospheric interaction, bolt/shield interaction or hitting asteroids, this I think is what they also refer to as flak, it also makes sense because the flak here is visually so low energetic that at most it's a few Megajoules, that really doesn't make sense I think when they could do ALOT better.

There's no asteroids around the snowspeeders, and what canon proof do you have of these "atmospheric interactions"? You will NEED THIS to dispove and override canon mention of flakbursts.

Speeders weren't shielded.

Nope, they weren't.

Then there could have been "shield interactions" around them.

[Lord Poe]

Then there could have been "shield interactions" around them.

COULDN"T have been. Fucking lack of edit button....

[Mad]

Is it possible there are dedicated flak weapons? The ANH novelization speaks of beams, bolts, and "explosive solids." If the "explosive solids" aren't guided missiles, then they are almost certainly a source of flak. The flak seen in other instances may also be from such weapons.

I don't think turbolaser bolts themselves were ever described to flak; the only source that even hints at that is the game X-Wing Alliance, and those flak bursts do no damage at all to the target. Other than that, the flak could be from any weapon type.

For those who accept the lightspeed beam definition found in ICS2, and a rationalizing theory such as my time delay theory, flak bursts may be a mostly-harmless burst of energy that is let out when the beam terminates upon missing the target. It wouldn't carry the majority of the weapon's energy, as most of the energy is still in the beam, heading away from the target.

[His Divine Shadow]

What? Flakbursting is canon! Particulate matter in the atmosphere being hit by TL bolts is not

As I see it, thats what they refer to flakbursting, it gives similar effects but isn't true flakbursting,

Yes, and flattening the Jedi on the ground as well.
Precise fire was the better option in this case.

Doesn't wash for me though, they should have never set down the army in the first place or the jedi, put them all to the ships and do a few air bursts and send in the army for mop-up operations.
And why would the TF coreships worry about the jedi, or even their own troops, they could have sent a few flak-bolts towards the republic army whilst running away, given the low firepower of their weapons they could have easily saved their own army.

There's no asteroids around the snowspeeders, and what canon proof do you have of these "atmospheric interactions"? You will NEED THIS to dispove and override canon mention of flakbursts.

Actually, my theory is that that is what they refer to as flak and such.
I just can't wash the notion of an energy bolt that can flak on purpose and only release an infinitesimal fraction of it's energy, it means either the flak system is one of the most ineffective systems I've seen, or that the ICS and other weapons figures are greatly exxagerated.

[JodoForce]

I missed nothing. You did not read what I said. In the video of that scene, the bridge appears to just... well... disappear. Obviously, it cannot just disappear, unless you wish to claim that the asteroid somehow emitted a cloaking field or pushed the bridge into "subspace".

There should have been debris, pieces of the bridge tower, left. They should have been visible. They should have been VERY obvious, as the bridge is a very large structure.

So what happened to the pieces of the bridge? If it was destroyed, pieces would have been visible. Pieces were NOT visible. The only debris, aside from the "glowy" impact and the ensuing dust cloud, were white "flashes" that flew away from the impact site and towards the camera... in the exact opposite direction debris from the bridge tower would have gone.

So, my dear sir, I ask you again... what happened to the debris from the bridge tower's destruction?

There were two explanations forwarded for this in this thread and my picture was shown as possible proof for both. 'I missed nothing'?

[His Divine Shadow]

Interesitngly enough, I have found atleast 5-10 events of apparent flakbursts in TESB without _any_ bolts anywhere, maybe it's a totally different system? They fire a few lowpowered explosive projectiles to cause concussive effects and such at the same time they fire their blasters and lasers?
That makes alot more sense to me.