MC vs SD

[FTeik]

Well, as far as i know an MC80 carries 3 squadrons of Y-Wings, two squadrons of X-Wings and one squadron of A-Wings.

And as far as the performance of pilots is concerned, as long as we are not talking about Rogue-Squadron or the empires 181th, why shall we assume, that the rebels are better, than their counterparts flying the TIEs?

And how many cap-ship-killer can the rebels really put into their torpedo-launchers, since those things are rather expansive? I somehow doubt enough on the fighters of one ship, to be truely sucessful.

The A-Wing has missiles?

[FOG3]

Is the winged MC-80 refeering to the Mon Romanda?

No, I mean the Liberty.

[Tribun]

If I'm not wrong, the Liberty was the first MC80, which was pulverised by DS II....

[FOG3]

Which is why I referred to that type of MC-80 as opposed to specifically naming the Liberty in the first post, but yes I'm pretty sure the Liberty was the first to go as well.

[Isolder74]

Which is why I referred to that type of MC-80 as opposed to specifically naming the Liberty in the first post, but yes I'm pretty sure the Liberty was the first to go as well.

It was

[vakundok]

The Liberty was the first ship destroyed by the DS. And it was a winged mon cal cruiser. I do not know whether it was an MC80 or the real MC80 is the wingless type.

[phongn]

Well, as far as i know an MC80 carries 3 squadrons of Y-Wings, two squadrons of X-Wings and one squadron of A-Wings.

MC80-type ships only carried 3 squadrons of starfighters.

And as far as the performance of pilots is concerned, as long as we are not talking about Rogue-Squadron or the empires 181th, why shall we assume, that the rebels are better, than their counterparts flying the TIEs?

Indeed. Rebel fighter jocks are not neccessarily better than their Imperial counterparts.

And how many cap-ship-killer can the rebels really put into their torpedo-launchers, since those things are rather expansive? I somehow doubt enough on the fighters of one ship, to be truely sucessful.

Enough to take out point-targets at the least in a capship duel. They should be better equipped if this is post-Yavin.

The A-Wing has missiles?

12 concussion missiles, probably analogous to the Sidewinder.

[phongn]

Which is why I referred to that type of MC-80 as opposed to specifically naming the Liberty in the first post, but yes I'm pretty sure the Liberty was the first to go as well.

I generally consider the MC80 to be the wingless Mon Cal design of ~1.2km.

[phongn]

What differences do you feel are between Liberty and the MC-80?

I'd say the Liberty is generally a more powerful combatant, perhaps even with a larger fighter wing, but inferior speed and maneuverability due to the greater mass.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Do we know if WEG scaling was correct? I thought the Liberty looked nearly 1.6 km when viewed beside an Imperator.

[phongn]

The Empire never put much thought into their Starfighter designs, untill after they learned the hard way you know

Bull. The TIE Fighter is a perfectly accpetable fighter for the role it plays: anti-starfighter weapon. In case you didn't notice at Yavin, those TIEs were doing a number on the Rebel fighters (we witness that they are too more maneuverable).

Of course, a good number of the kills were against Y-Wings trying to make torpedo runs, weren't they? Hitting slow strike craft is not a huge accomplishment, especially when Vader's personal TIE squadron was very likely to be an elite squadron.

How are these bad designs? Because they don't put missile launchers on their interceptors, which actually increase mass, and thus DECREASE overall speed and maneuverablility? So for all the effort the Rebels put into these superior missile launching designs, they'll get shot down before they even get to deliver their payload due to the greater speed and maneuverablility of Imperial fighters!

Except that the Rebels may simply have put a larger powerplant on their own starfighters to compensate for the mass penalty. Ever notice that TIEs tend to have these tiny engines while Rebel craft generally had rather large drives? Furthermore, the A-Wing's missile payload may very well allow the Rebel strike wing to get first-shots.

gunboats (gunboats, oh I haven't even touched on those) to pound on the Rebel capship.

Gunboats are not neccessarily a standard loadout on ISDs.

[vakundok]

Do we know if WEG scaling was correct? I thought the Liberty looked nearly 1.6 km when viewed beside an Imperator.

Saxton said that the ISD model was 2.59 m while the cruiser models were around 2.44 m. Since most likely they were shot together this gives a lenght figure of 1.5 km for the cruisers.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Of course, a good number of the kills were against Y-Wings trying to make torpedo runs, weren't they? Hitting slow strike craft is not a huge accomplishment, especially when Vader's personal TIE squadron was very likely to be an elite squadron.

Yes. But it stands that only 3 Rebel fighters (from 30) made it away from Yavin that day. At least one kill can be attributed to TLs, but the remaining must've been the TIEs.

Except that the Rebels may simply have put a larger powerplant on their own starfighters to compensate for the mass penalty. Ever notice that TIEs tend to have these tiny engines while Rebel craft generally had rather large drives?

Point. Still, from what I have observed the TIE does have superior speed/maneuverability than the X-Wing, and the TIE Interceptor is on par with the A-Wing. Minus missile launchers (Which would be used for capships), the Imperial fighter wing at least has a small advantage.

Furthermore, the A-Wing's missile payload may very well allow the Rebel strike wing to get first-shots.

Those are small Dymek HM-6 missiles, not as powerful as your standard anti-starfighter missile, let alone a capship killer.

Gunboats are not neccessarily a standard loadout on ISDs.

The EGTV&V seems to think so:

"Support ships, all maintained aboard the [Star] Destroyer, include eight Lambda-class shuttles, fifteen stormtrooper transports, five assualt gunboats, and a number of Skipray Blastboats and Gamma-class assualt shuttles." -p.80

[Darth Yoshi]

Actually, the TIE Interceptor was designed to counter the X-wing, and the A-wing designed to counter that. The A-wing is no match for the TIE Avenger even with warheads, and neither is the X-wing.

Doesn't the ISD2 carry 6 squadrons of snubfighters? Even with shielding, the Rebel fighters are at a disadvantage.

[Striderteen]

Rebel fighters are limited by their jack of all trades, master of none design; they can do everything moderately well, but nothing incredibly well. To match all the capabilities of a single Rebel fighter would require two or three TIEs (a fighter-type, a bomber-type and a hyperspace recon-type) -- but in each of those single roles, the specialized TIE will generally beat the Rebel ship.

The Defender is the exception; it's a Rebel-style multirole, but massively uber.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Only the X-Wing suffered from that problem.

The Y-Wing was a slow strike fighter. The A-Wing was an agile interceptor. The B-Wing was an anti-light capship warhead platform. The K-Wing was a very heavy atmospheric and anti-light cap ship bomber.

The X-Wing's in all their versions were multi-role space superiority fighters. (The so called "Tandem X" was probably a strike ship though).

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Then why do they have practically no armor?

Watch the Battle of Yavin/Endor. Shields and armor are not the uber protection the games and X-Wing novels make them. A few hits are usually lethal.

[phongn]

Of course, a good number of the kills were against Y-Wings trying to make torpedo runs, weren't they? Hitting slow strike craft is not a huge accomplishment, especially when Vader's personal TIE squadron was very likely to be an elite squadron.

Yes. But it stands that only 3 Rebel fighters (from 30) made it away from Yavin that day. At least one kill can be attributed to TLs, but the remaining must've been the TIEs.

"Must have been?" Whyso? There was a lot of anti-starfighter fire coming up from the Death Star. Even still, I'd take 12 elite pilots against 30-40 average ones, especially when half of those are on dedicated strike missions or acting as human shields (due to a lack of proton torpedos).

Point. Still, from what I have observed the TIE does have superior speed/maneuverability than the X-Wing, and the TIE Interceptor is on par with the A-Wing. Minus missile launchers (Which would be used for capships), the Imperial fighter wing at least has a small advantage.

Indications show that the TIE/ln and X-Wing have similar acceleration and maneuverbility with the A-Wing beating the TIE/I in the acceleration (if not manueverbility) department. Furthermore, those missile launchers do not exclusively have to be outfitted with anti-capital ship munitions.

Those are small Dymek HM-6 missiles, not as powerful as your standard anti-starfighter missile, let alone a capship killer.

And damaging your opponent before he can even touch your shields is not useful?

[phongn]

Then why do they have practically no armor?

Watch the Battle of Yavin/Endor. Shields and armor are not the uber protection the games and X-Wing novels make them. A few hits are usually lethal.

I can't remember, but did the Rebel pilots ever reconfigure their shielding? Going to double-front would have exposed their backsides - and most of the TIEs seemed to score their kills while chasing.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

"Must have been?" Whyso? There was a lot of anti-starfighter fire coming up from the Death Star.

Because we see only one pilot get shot down by them before they go in the trench. In the trench, they don't take nearly as much fire; they can fly in a straight line without getting hit by the TLs all the way down.

Even still, I'd take 12 elite pilots against 30-40 average ones, especially when half of those are on dedicated strike missions or acting as human shields (due to a lack of proton torpedos).

What do you mean 12 elites to 30-40 average? Are you sayign the MC gets Rouge Squadron and the ISD gets green pilots.

Indications show that the TIE/ln and X-Wing have similar acceleration and maneuverbility with the A-Wing beating the TIE/I in the acceleration (if not manueverbility) department. Furthermore, those missile launchers do not exclusively have to be outfitted with anti-capital ship munitions.

At Yavin it sure looked like the X-Wings were being outmaneuvered. Not a single X-Wing was able to shake a TIE without assistance from another fighter. How do you figure the A-Wing's superiority to the TIE/I? I've never seen an on-screen comparison (unless its from EU). Finally, what good would anti-starfighter missiles be? You know that jamming prevents effecting lock on to fast-moving targets, and that they can do no damage to capship shielding.

And damaging your opponent before he can even touch your shields is not useful?

Anti-starfighter missiles would not be able to damage a Star Destroyer. They're too weak to even consider pentrating the shield threshold. If used after shield drops, they may be useful. But as a "first strike" thing, they are worthless.
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Now then, lets add up the fighters. An MC80 can carry three (3) squadrons of fighters; each squadron of unknown make-up (just throw in whatever you like, I guess).

ISDmk2 has 3 TIE/lns, 2 TIE/Is. and one of the bombers. PLUS 5 assualt gunboats, and a small number of Skiprays and Gamma class assualt ships. Should we then assume equal numbers for all three types of gunships?

This would put the Imperial ship at 60 anti-fighter craft and 27 anti-capship
craft, versus 36 of whatever you like. The Rebels get screwed pretty bad (fighter-wise) no matter what combo they go with.

And since most agree an ISD is superior to an MC80 in a slugging match, add the ISDs superior numbers of fighters (27 of which can carry heavy munitions), and you can see the MC80 doesn't really stand much of a chance against her Imperial counter-part.

[Darth Yoshi]

Because we see only one pilot get shot down by them before they go in the trench. In the trench, they don't take nearly as much fire; they can fly in a straight line without getting hit by the TLs all the way down.

It should be noted that only 9 fighters were shown to have entered the trench: Gold Leader and his wingmen, who didn't get their shot off; Red Leader and his wingmen, who missed; and Luke and his wingmen. Ignoring Porkins, that still leaves about 20 fighters for the turbolasers and TIEs. I doubt Vader would have had more than one or two squadrons under his direct command, which means that there most likely weren't enough TIEs to get all the Rebel fighters, but there probably were enough to get most.

[Phyre]

Of course, a good number of the kills were against Y-Wings trying to make torpedo runs, weren't they? Hitting slow strike craft is not a huge accomplishment, especially when Vader's personal TIE squadron was very likely to be an elite squadron.

Yes. But it stands that only 3 Rebel fighters (from 30) made it away from Yavin that day. At least one kill can be attributed to TLs, but the remaining must've been the TIEs.

"Must have been?" Whyso? There was a lot of anti-starfighter fire coming up from the Death Star. Even still, I'd take 12 elite pilots against 30-40 average ones, especially when half of those are on dedicated strike missions or acting as human shields (due to a lack of proton torpedos).

Point. Still, from what I have observed the TIE does have superior speed/maneuverability than the X-Wing, and the TIE Interceptor is on par with the A-Wing. Minus missile launchers (Which would be used for capships), the Imperial fighter wing at least has a small advantage.

Indications show that the TIE/ln and X-Wing have similar acceleration and maneuverbility with the A-Wing beating the TIE/I in the acceleration (if not manueverbility) department. Furthermore, those missile launchers do not exclusively have to be outfitted with anti-capital ship munitions.

Those are small Dymek HM-6 missiles, not as powerful as your standard anti-starfighter missile, let alone a capship killer.

And damaging your opponent before he can even touch your shields is not useful?

Actually, a TIE Interceptor has much better speed, acceleration, and manuverability than an X-wing. It's about level in all of those areas with the A-wing. A-wing's shields suck, very low power. While the A-wing has missle launchers, it's only got dual, nose mounted lasers. The TIE/In lacks a launcher, but has Quad, wing-mounted lasers. If you link those to fire at the same time, an A-wing will go down.

[Phyre]

Because we see only one pilot get shot down by them before they go in the trench. In the trench, they don't take nearly as much fire; they can fly in a straight line without getting hit by the TLs all the way down.

It should be noted that only 9 fighters were shown to have entered the trench: Gold Leader and his wingmen, who didn't get their shot off; Red Leader and his wingmen, who missed; and Luke and his wingmen. Ignoring Porkins, that still leaves about 20 fighters for the turbolasers and TIEs. I doubt Vader would have had more than one or two squadrons under his direct command, which means that there most likely weren't enough TIEs to get all the Rebel fighters, but there probably were enough to get most.

I doubt that there were only a few TIE's out there. The battlefield was more likely crawling with ties.

[Isolder74]

Because we see only one pilot get shot down by them before they go in the trench. In the trench, they don't take nearly as much fire; they can fly in a straight line without getting hit by the TLs all the way down.

It should be noted that only 9 fighters were shown to have entered the trench: Gold Leader and his wingmen, who didn't get their shot off; Red Leader and his wingmen, who missed; and Luke and his wingmen. Ignoring Porkins, that still leaves about 20 fighters for the turbolasers and TIEs. I doubt Vader would have had more than one or two squadrons under his direct command, which means that there most likely weren't enough TIEs to get all the Rebel fighters, but there probably were enough to get most.

I doubt that there were only a few TIE's out there. The battlefield was more likely crawling with ties.

No it wasn't. This is because Tarkin REFUSED to launch fighters to defeat the Rebel fighters. It was only Vader's personal units that launched to fight the Rebels. Tarkin's arrogance was what killed him. So that means all Tie at Yavin were Acxe pilots from a Elite forse.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Actually, a TIE Interceptor has much better speed, acceleration, and manuverability than an X-wing. It's about level in all of those areas with the A-wing. A-wing's shields suck, very low power. While the A-wing has missle launchers, it's only got dual, nose mounted lasers. The TIE/In lacks a launcher, but has Quad, wing-mounted lasers. If you link those to fire at the same time, an A-wing will go down.

He said a TIE Ln, or Line Fighter, not Interceptor.

A-Wings will consistently destroy TIE Interceptors in direct combat, as they are more survivable, have greater range due to anti-fighter missiles (which are probably proximity-hit kills against the Interceptor), and their energy weapons can swivel, allowing the A-Wing greater flexibility while still being able to strike at the Interceptor.