Star Trek at Comic-Con: Trek Vs. Wars

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-07-09 09:28pm

Heh, if anybody from here is going to be there, perhaps a print out SD.net or some other good sites would be in order?

Probably nothing interesting will happen, but you never know!

On Friday, there are two panels with Trek-specific themes. At 4:00 there's "Starship Smackdown II" which asks the eternal question, "Ever wonder who would win in a battle between the Starship Enterprise and an Imperial Star Destroyer...?" Daren Dochterman is among the "spaceshipologists" on the panel — he created the Caretaker Array for "Caretaker" and was visual effects supervisor on the Director's Edition of "Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

(from startrek.com's news for 7/9).

Intro for the article:

The largest annual event in the country celebrating comics and related popular art forms inevitably has a number of Star Trek connections, and this year is no exception. Among the massive guest list and 600 hours of programming over four days, Trekkers will have plenty to occupy their attention at the Comic-Con International convention, taking place July 17-20 in San Diego, California.

Rest of the article here:

http://startrek.com/news/news.asp?ID=129280

A not so subtle slam later on in the page:

DVD Etc. magazine recently conducted a readers' poll to determine the top 100 DVDs of all time. "Star Trek: The Motion Picture — The Director's Edition" made the list. "Unlike a certain fantasy film, this restoration actually helps the film and doesn't ruin the film with flashy modern CGI that doesn't fit the look of the film," writes Mark Kalze. The list appears in the June 2003 issue of the magazine, which also features an interview with "TMP" director Robert Wise.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-07-09 11:25pm

What a moron. Too bad ANH is still on the best movie's of the century, and TMP is...where now?

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2003-07-09 11:39pm

<i>On Friday, there are two panels with Trek-specific themes. At 4:00 there's "Starship Smackdown II" which asks the eternal question, "Ever wonder who would win in a battle between the Starship Enterprise and an Imperial Star Destroyer...?" Daren Dochterman is among the "spaceshipologists" on the panel — he created the Caretaker Array for "Caretaker" and was visual effects supervisor on the Director's Edition of "Star Trek: The Motion Picture.</i>

So the guy knows how to make some visual effects, big deal. I wonder whether he actually knows the material he's supposed to be debating.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-07-10 10:35am

It's paid for my Trek, for Trekkies. Gee, I wonder what they are going to tell the fans the outcome will be....

Should be interesting to hear the reasoning they have though.

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2003-07-10 11:02am

If it's paid for by Trek, I wonder what sources the "spaceshipologists" will use? And if they use sources currently disallowable for Trek, what does that mean, as the panel member should know what sources he's allowed to use?

it sounds like there'll be other "spaceshiplogists," perhaps some that are pro-SW. The news from SW.com doesn't say anything about it, though. It does say there'll be more updates, so perhaps a future update will mention it.

Is anyone here going? I'd like to see the results of that argument... Also, Steve Sansweet will be there, might be able to get some direct answers from him on canon policy (including ICS2) to get certain people to quiet down.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2003-07-10 11:07am

If Mark Kalze already disavows SW for being fantasy, it's pretty clear it's going to be a Trek fest.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-07-10 05:58pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:What a moron. Too bad ANH is still on the best movie's of the century, and TMP is...where now?

Best loved does not equate with best.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-07-10 06:41pm

Frank Hipper wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:What a moron. Too bad ANH is still on the best movie's of the century, and TMP is...where now?
Best loved does not equate with best.

Are you arguing that TMP is anywhere close to ANH's quality as a film?

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-07-10 08:19pm

Aww, a mod deleted my rant.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-07-10 08:39pm

On Friday, there are two panels with Trek-specific themes. At 4:00 there's "Starship Smackdown II" which asks the eternal question, "Ever wonder who would win in a battle between the Starship Enterprise and an Imperial Star Destroyer...?" Daren Dochterman is among the "spaceshipologists" on the panel — he created the Caretaker Array for "Caretaker" and was visual effects supervisor on the Director's Edition of "Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

Bullshit. I wouldn't be surprised if the Enterprise shurgs off the "primitive lasers."

DVD Etc. magazine recently conducted a readers' poll to determine the top 100 DVDs of all time. "Star Trek: The Motion Picture — The Director's Edition" made the list. "Unlike a certain fantasy film, this restoration actually helps the film and doesn't ruin the film with flashy modern CGI that doesn't fit the look of the film," writes Mark Kalze. The list appears in the June 2003 issue of the magazine, which also features an interview with "TMP" director Robert Wise.

Of course, how can you ruin a film that was successfuly made as the most boring story ever?

KhyronTheBackstabber · Post by **KhyronTheBackstabber** » 2003-07-10 08:50pm

So in other words this is gonna be one big Trekie wank fest. You know what would kick ass? If, while this guy is talking someone dressed like Maul, jumped up behind him, yells "YOU CAN"T PROVE THAT!” gives him a wedge, and takes off running.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-07-10 09:21pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:What a moron. Too bad ANH is still on the best movie's of the century, and TMP is...where now?
Best loved does not equate with best.
Are you arguing that TMP is anywhere close to ANH's quality as a film?

No, I'm remarking on your statement about ANH being one of the best movies of the century.

I love it to death, the summer of '77 stands as one of the best times in my life in part because of it, but when you're talking serious films, best films, it doesn't really make the top ten or so. IF that.

And TMP doesn't deserve the reputation it has, it's not great, but it's not bad, either.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-10 09:38pm

Frank Hipper wrote:
Are you arguing that TMP is anywhere close to ANH's quality as a film?
No, I'm remarking on your statement about ANH being one of the best movies of the century.

I love it to death, the summer of '77 stands as one of the best times in my life in part because of it, but when you're talking serious films, best films, it doesn't really make the top ten or so. IF that.

Exactly what does "best" mean? When someone asks me what the best kind of food is, I don't sit down and start cataloguing the difficulty or artistry of work that went into it. I simply ask myself whether I like the taste.

And TMP doesn't deserve the reputation it has, it's not great, but it's not bad, either.

Have you watched it lately? I rewatched it lately and it was worse than I remember. The plot is shopworn, the ending is a painfully transparent attempt to be profound, the ship looks like a fucking 1970s airport lounge, the uniforms are awful, the lighting is horrible, and there are agonizingly long wankfest scenes in which we're supposed to sit patiently and watch the faces of awestruck crewmen. These people are freaked out at a blue cloud to the point of near-incontinence, even though the same crew once flew into a giant fucking space bacteria without batting an eyelash.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-07-10 09:46pm

Frank Hipper wrote:I love it to death, the summer of '77 stands as one of the best times in my life in part because of it, but when you're talking serious films, best films, it doesn't really make the top ten or so. IF that.

Erm... Yes it does. Star Wars has consistently ranked within the top 25 films of all time (with ESB almost always in the top 20, and RotJ somewhere near 30-35) as rated by film critics. The fact that it "barely makes the top 10" is irrelevant, given both that it is more a statement of the quality of other films on the least than any deficiency in Star Wars.

To put this in terms I know better than film, am I to say that when you look at seriously films, To Kill a Mockingbird is weak because it's not as good as The Lord of the Flies?

And TMP doesn't deserve the reputation it has, it's not great, but it's not bad, either.

I think it's terrible. I have never seen a critic rate it anywhere near as highly as Star Wars, ESB, or RotJ.

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2003-07-10 09:50pm

Correct me if im wrong but, TMP was made after ANH correct? And it looks about ten times worse graphically? *cough*squanderedbudjet*cough*

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-07-10 09:54pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:
Are you arguing that TMP is anywhere close to ANH's quality as a film?
No, I'm remarking on your statement about ANH being one of the best movies of the century.

I love it to death, the summer of '77 stands as one of the best times in my life in part because of it, but when you're talking serious films, best films, it doesn't really make the top ten or so. IF that.
Exactly what does "best" mean? When someone asks me what the best kind of food is, I don't sit down and start cataloguing the difficulty or artistry of work that went into it. I simply ask myself whether I like the taste.

Right. A bad car falls apart, bad food is rotten. But when it comes to best it's a matter of personal choice.
But does anyone place ANH up there with Citizen Kane?

And TMP doesn't deserve the reputation it has, it's not great, but it's not bad, either.
Have you watched it lately? I rewatched it lately and it was worse than I remember. The plot is shopworn, the ending is a painfully transparent attempt to be profound, the ship looks like a fucking 1970s airport lounge, the uniforms are awful, the lighting is horrible, and there are agonizingly long wankfest scenes in which we're supposed to sit patiently and watch the faces of awestruck crewmen. These people are freaked out at a blue cloud to the point of near-incontinence, even though the same crew once flew into a giant fucking space bacteria without batting an eyelash.

Yes the SF costumes sucked. Yes, the crew's reaction to V'ger was silly, but the the shots of the cloud and V'ger itself were fucking awesome, from a movie goer's perspective. I get caught up in watching that kind of shit,
And for worn out plots in sci-fi, there more of them than there are fresh ones. Yes?
I would rate TMP as mediocre, on the whole. But it has bits here and there that I really love.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-07-10 09:54pm

Star Wars (And American Graffitti, BTW) are recognized by the Library of Congress as National Treasures. Is ST:TMP? Not too many of those "top tens" can claim that.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-07-10 10:00pm

Lord Poe wrote:Star Wars (And American Graffitti, BTW) are recognized by the Library of Congress as National Treasures. Is ST:TMP? Not too many of those "top tens" can claim that.

I never said ST was displaced by ANH, or that it was a better movie.

What makes it a national treasure? The riveting dialog? Or the fact that it's a cultural icon?

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-07-10 10:13pm

Frank Hipper wrote:What makes it a national treasure? The riveting dialog? Or the fact that it's a cultural icon?

Both. And the fact that it became the most popular movie ever made. And combined models and live action on a scale never before attempted, was groundbreaking, and set the bar for special effects, and was the first bona-fide blockbuster.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-10 10:17pm

Frank Hipper wrote:Right. A bad car falls apart, bad food is rotten. But when it comes to best it's a matter of personal choice.
But does anyone place ANH up there with Citizen Kane?

Frankly, I place it well above Citizen Kane, which I consider to be grossly overrated. And yes, I've seen Citizen Kane, and I took a film study class in uni where the prof blathered on endlessly about how great it was, and I know it's considered to be the greatest film of all time. But it's mostly film buffs who think it's so great; they're so busy oohing and aahing over its innovative cinematography that they fail to notice a rather pedestrian plot which drags into a downright plodding pace by the end. "Rosebud" was my cue to wake up.

It's nothing more than a mundane tragi-melodrama with fantastic cinematography. Sorry, but I think it's the most overrated film ever made.

Phyre · Post by **Phyre** » 2003-07-10 10:42pm

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-07-10 10:46pm

I hate the reverence "Citizen Kane" is supposed to garner from ALL film buffs. It WAS a boring piece of crap. Sorry. I went to film school as well. I bullshitted my way through "film appreciation" because I failed itthe first time. The second time around, I glorified all those shitty movies they made us watch ("Imitation of Life", "Johnny O' Clock", "Strangers On A Train", etc.) using the best Leonard Maltin, Roger Ebert criticspeak, and got an A.

I still have some of those fucking papers! For the Hitchcock movie
"Strangers On A Train", I pointed out the "obvious" signs Hitchcock was showing us throughout the movie for the double cross: the cross-tracks sign closeup at the train station, how one of the guys CROSSED his legs, they LOOKed at each other CROSSLY....

And I got a fucking A. Can you believe that?

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-07-10 10:49pm

Lord Poe wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:What makes it a national treasure? The riveting dialog? Or the fact that it's a cultural icon?
Both. And the fact that it became the most popular movie ever made. And combined models and live action on a scale never before attempted, was groundbreaking, and set the bar for special effects, and was the first bona-fide blockbuster.

Jaws was the first blockbuster.
You aren't really serious about the dialogue, are you? This thread is making me look like a SW hater, which I most certanly AM NOT, but the council scene onboard the Death Star is not the high point of the flick. Except for the force choke, of course!

And then there's the hilarious "Close the blast doors.....Open the blast doors! Open the blast doors!" If that was intentional it's one thing, but it didn't seem like it to me.
Having said that, ANH is the best SW flick, it's better than ESB in quite a few areas.

Darth Wong wrote:Frankly, I place it well above Citizen Kane, which I consider to be grossly overrated. And yes, I've seen Citizen Kane, and I took a film study class in uni where the prof blathered on endlessly about how great it was, and I know it's considered to be the greatest film of all time. But it's mostly film buffs who think it's so great; they're so busy oohing and aahing over its innovative cinematography that they fail to notice a rather pedestrian plot which drags into a downright plodding pace by the end. "Rosebud" was my cue to wake up.

It's nothing more than a mundane tragi-melodrama with fantastic cinematography. Sorry, but I think it's the most overrated film ever made.

Well, on the "Rosebud" front, according to Kenneth Anger, "rosebud" was William Randolph Hearst's nickname for Marion Davie's clit, it was Orson Welles' way of attacking Hearst where he couldn't hit back with a public rebuttal.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-07-10 10:50pm

Citizen Kane was promoted primarily for its originality of cinematography, which was significantly better than anything else that had ever been produced, and arguably better than anything else that has ever been produced. It is a great movie.

But you can hardly claim that because a movie isn't the best of all time it's not "one of the best of the century."

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-07-10 11:00pm

Master of Ossus wrote:But you can hardly claim that because a movie isn't the best of all time it's not "one of the best of the century."

It depends on how you would qualify for one of the best, though.

Does popularity make a movie good?
Does a film's influence make it good? How many people despise 2001, after all...
Can good acting make up for bad acting in the same film?
Does an ancient story become better, fresher, in a new setting?

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Star Trek at Comic-Con: Trek Vs. Wars

Star Trek at Comic-Con: Trek Vs. Wars

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