Abused Australian soldier commits suicide.

[Rathark]

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2003/s896902.htm

What the hell does this sort of treatment have to do with discipline?

To our military members: is such prejudice against injured soldiers/recruits prevalent within the armed forces of your nation?

[Sir Sirius]

No, I busted my knee during my last month in the Army. Spent the remaining three weeks hopping around with crutches, never got any crap about it.

[Edi]

No. If something like that happened here, there'd be shit flying all over the place from all quarters and the people responsible would all end up in jail very quickly. How injured people are treated by others depends somewhat on the unit, in some outfits people who only have minor injuries that really don't show get snide remarks and that doesn't feel good, but there is no systematic abuse or anything like that, and people with injuries are given time to recover from them.

The incident described there, what happened to Private Williams, if true, should result in the officers of the R&D platoon, their superior and the base commander all being court martialed and jailed, as well as any others who were responsible for that kind of shit. The lack of medical personnel on the base is also unbelievable. The Finnish armed forces don't have overly much funding, but even the garrison where I did my military service had a doctor present a few hours every day, and there was only our company and some personnel from the transport company.

Edi

[Tribun]

Reminds me of the FMJ (Full Metal Jacket)-Style.

Dood that the German Army is totally soft and abolished such tactics decardes ago. Otherwise I wouldn't had survived by 10 Months of military service.

[Zoink]

After reading the article I see:

-a guy who was really gung-ho about being a soldier.

-took the label of "soldier" very seriously.

-had his own very negative opinions about R&D platoon.

-resented being placed in R&D platoon.

-felt really depressed that he was no longer considered a "soldier" by his peers. He probably took this *very* seriously, more so than his own personal opinion of himself.

-killed himself.

-----------

I would suspect that his own negative opinions of R&D platoon (which he transfered to himself when placed there) and a misplaced sense of self-worth are more to blaim for his death than the rejection by his peers.

[Crazy_Vasey]

There's been some stuff in the British media fairly recently about bullying in the army and some soldiers that commited suicide. Was a really big thing for a while but it seems to have faded out of the public eye now.

[Death from the Sea]

What the hell does this sort of treatment have to do with discipline?

To our military members: is such prejudice against injured soldiers/recruits prevalent within the armed forces of your nation?

For genuine injuries, no, troops do not seriously harass each other. For those who somehow always seem to be injured or take little injuries and milk it for all the light duty they can get, they do get harassed. Frequently they are called broke-dicks, or shit-birds.
I personally can't stand a malingerer because someone else has to pick up the slack. People can do much more than they realize if they are willing to push themselves. People requiring light duty for little shit will most likely get harassed, I once saw a Marine hike for a little over two miles on a broken ankle before he was forced by the corpsman to get in the medivan. It is all mental fortitude.
It seems likely to me if he killed himself from the stress of being ridiculed for being injured, then he would have folded like that under the stress of combat.


The term used for guys in R & D platoons is jack (bleeped) or malingerers.

[h0rus]

"I once saw a Marine hike for a little over two miles on a broken ankle before he was forced by the corpsman to get in the medivan. It is all mental fortitude."

No, that to me seems like macho stupidity. An injury that severe could turn quickly serious unless treated properly. I wouldn't get all hyped up about an idiot putting his dick before his common sense. But I suppose that's the typical cannon fodder mentality. If a person gets injured and they cannot get by, so be it. That others complain about having to pick up slack only shows lazyness on their part. Reminds me of those SEAL's who drowned during the mission to Grenada. What was blamed was a blatant disregard for safety and that 'hoorah' mentality, which resulted in their deaths. They also much like that 'brave' soldier you mentioned were too hyped to let 'safety' get in the way of their dicks.

[Falkenhayn]

"I once saw a Marine hike for a little over two miles on a broken ankle before he was forced by the corpsman to get in the medivan. It is all mental fortitude."

No, that to me seems like macho stupidity. An injury that severe could turn quickly serious unless treated properly. I wouldn't get all hyped up about an idiot putting his dick before his common sense. But I suppose that's the typical cannon fodder mentality. If a person gets injured and they cannot get by, so be it. That others complain about having to pick up slack only shows lazyness on their part. Reminds me of those SEAL's who drowned during the mission to Grenada. What was blamed was a blatant disregard for safety and that 'hoorah' mentality, which resulted in their deaths. They also much like that 'brave' soldier you mentioned were too hyped to let 'safety' get in the way of their dicks.

If I could refer you to T.R Fehrenbach's book "This Kind of War: Korea, a Lesson in Unpreparedness".

He found that the greatest driving influence of men in combat is the thought of their conduct putting their courage and masculinity to doubt in front of their fellows.

Now I would much rather have a "Macho" marine at my side in a firefight, who can perform a feat of fortitude such as that and remain functional. People who's sense of duty can override mental weakness almost belong in the army. They will keep fighting when others quit, and so increase everybody's chances of comming home in one piece

[Rathark]

It seems likely to me if he killed himself from the stress of being ridiculed for being injured, then he would have folded like that under the stress of combat.

That sounds like the best argument against conscription* I have ever heard.




(* Abandoned by the Australian military about 30 years ago.)

[Edi]

I once saw a Marine hike for a little over two miles on a broken ankle before he was forced by the corpsman to get in the medivan. It is all mental fortitude.

That Marine was a fucking idiot. It's a different thing if you're in a combat situation or retreating with the enemy howling at your heels, then that'd be acceptable and could even be necessary, but on a regular march? What the idiot deserved was a thorough chewing out by his immediate superiors. He was needlessly exposing himself to further and worse injury, and was a potential liability for the guys around him, plus, if he'd been more badly injured because of his idiocy, he'd have been recovering longer and useless for his unit for that time.

It seems likely to me if he killed himself from the stress of being ridiculed for being injured, then he would have folded like that under the stress of combat.

You haven't had much experience being on the receiving end of hazing, have you? If people get injured in the army, no big deal as such, it's an occupational hazard, and they'll recover just fine if given time enough to recover. But if you start actively hazing them because they got hurt (not necessarily even through any fault of their own) and telling them they're worthless, and if everyone else around them does it too, it won't take long for depression to set in and motivation to vanish. Performance suffers as a result, and recovery from illness or injuries becomes slower. If it continues long enough it always ends badly. That he finally collapsed for the reason he did has actually nothing to do with how he would have behaved in combat had he been in his own unit, not suffering from abuse.

The term used for guys in R & D platoons is jack (bleeped) or malingerers.

So a person who is, due to an injury, placed into a unit (which by its very nature is only semi-permanent in composition) where he is allowed enough time to recover, is automatically a malingerer? That's a fucking idiotic mentality. I've no problem with giving short shrift and harsh treatment to those who actually shirk duty and milk every paper cut for everything they possibly can, but if the practice of disregard and contempt for the injured is fucking institutionalized by automatic derision, no wonder people go to stupid lengths to pretend they're not.

We used to have everybody who was injured/ill in the company placed in one ad hoc group that was assigned tasks like maintenance or lugging ammo and kitchen duty on exercises, and the moment you got back in shape, it was back to the ranks, and nobody thought any worse of you.

If I could refer you to T.R Fehrenbach's book "This Kind of War: Korea, a Lesson in Unpreparedness".

He found that the greatest driving influence of men in combat is the thought of their conduct putting their courage and masculinity to doubt in front of their fellows.

Now I would much rather have a "Macho" marine at my side in a firefight, who can perform a feat of fortitude such as that and remain functional. People who's sense of duty can override mental weakness almost belong in the army. They will keep fighting when others quit, and so increase everybody's chances of comming home in one piece

The ability to ignore injuries is admirable when it is warranted, otherwise it's just stupid. Machismo doesn't have a lot to do with it actually. In my unit it was the unintrusive, quiet guys who were dependable and who I'd have picked on my side, while the ones who were all puffed up with how tough they were were the least reliable. I have a particularly bad memory from one exercise where the people who were supposed to be at my back when I was point just decided they didn't want to bother and let me get ambushed by three enemies. Unsurprisingly, they were of the latter type.

That sounds like the best argument against conscription* I have ever heard.

It's a complete bullshit argument with bullshit premises. You can draw some conclusions on how someone is likely to behave in combat based on their behavior in their regular unit, in a regular military environment. Drawing conclusions based on how they behave when they're being actively hazed and abused and being ground down into the dirt will give you utterly worthless data. But even with what you can gather from observing people during training, you just won't know until they actually enter combat, be it professional or conscript military. Obviously training helps, and well motivated troops consistently do better than poorly motivated ones with low morale, but it is no guarantee of anything.

Edi

[Rob Wilson]

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2003/s896902.htm

What the hell does this sort of treatment have to do with discipline?

To our military members: is such prejudice against injured soldiers/recruits prevalent within the armed forces of your nation?

It has nothing to do with Discipline, and I'm amazed there was no doctor on base, where was the Medical Officer?

This whole thing with R&D platoons baffles me, in the British Army an injured Soldier stays with his section, and does as much as his injury will allow. He may get some stick about being injured, but it's nothing above taking the piss between friends (unless he's unliked, which is the same anywhere). There's even specific drill for people on Crutches, or with arms in casts.

The only time he'd be away from his section is the time he spends in the medical centre (or hospital in the case of serious injuries), if he has crutches he might not be allowed to go in the field for the duration, but likely he'll be put to use in resupply with the CQMS - sat in the bedford handing out supplies or something and expected to act like a soldier.

With a broken arm he'll be in the field, but he won't be a full part o the exercise, just there to keep his skills sharp. Putting them in a seperate place, literally excluding them from everyone else, that just bad drills and it will lead to problems.

Now onto his actual injury, if he felt he was well enough to walk (what the fuck is a stressed foot?) then he should have seen the CO and requested a placement back with his squad. And really, if a bunch of taunts are going to drive him to suicide in the space of a couple of weeks... and apparently the last straw was finding out his father had called the base... What the fuck! How does that drive anyone to suicide? Especially as it appears he was th only one told, it's not as if the whole base was making fun of it. On my first operational tour abroad, my mother took a train to the Camp I was based in to see me off, I then spent 6 months getting called mummy's boy and other witticisms, I'm reasonably sure I never committed suicide. In those circumstances you give as good as you get, you acknowledge the joke and it's all water off a ducks back.

I've been injured, from broken arms, collarbones, fractured femur, broken ribs, 50% blisters on my feet, torn ligaments, fucked knee's. And so have most other soldeirs and yet, even with the joshing that happens during the recovery, I'm prety sure I never topped my self in a fit of remorse.

The Army is a collection of Adults, with a wide range of swear words, who are kept in a state of perpetual aggression. There's not a day goes by without trading of insults (some good natured joshing, some intended), jokes at each others expense, pranks getting pulled and even the occassional blow being traded when there's no superior ranks around. BUt that's something everyone has to put up with, and hardly a newsflash. The NCO's keep discipline and everyone gets on with their lives. Getting called a few names shouldn't have even registered on this guys radar let alone driven him to suicide!

[Rob Wilson]

What the hell does this sort of treatment have to do with discipline?

To our military members: is such prejudice against injured soldiers/recruits prevalent within the armed forces of your nation?

For genuine injuries, no, troops do not seriously harass each other. For those who somehow always seem to be injured or take little injuries and milk it for all the light duty they can get, they do get harassed. Frequently they are called broke-dicks, or shit-birds.

True enough, but a thorough exam by the MO normally points out the bogus injuries, and the ones that then milk that injury... are actually pretty rare as they are always with their unit, so there's no milage in trying to stay on a pair of crutches when they get in the way when you march.

I personally can't stand a malingerer because someone else has to pick up the slack. People can do much more than they realize if they are willing to push themselves. People requiring light duty for little shit will most likely get harassed, I once saw a Marine hike for a little over two miles on a broken ankle before he was forced by the corpsman to get in the medivan. It is all mental fortitude.

Great under emergency conditions, stupid on an exercise. He's simply destroying the joint, damaging the supporting tendons and ligaments, increasing the chances of a permanent disability, and reducing his useful service life. The MO (or Marine equivalent) should have removed him from the march. Where the hell was his PC or Platoon Sergeant? He's no good to his country, if he has to be medicalled out of the Service!

I've marched with a Fractured Femur, and the PC called up the MO and they had me off the exercise inside of 5 miles. I just thought I'd pulled a muscle or bruised my leg, if I'd known I'd broken it (hairline fracture) I'd have seen the MO myself.

It seems likely to me if he killed himself from the stress of being ridiculed for being injured, then he would have folded like that under the stress of combat.

And this is from your extensive combat experienc I presume, where you've been able to compare the way people react on exercise and in base life, to thier performance in combat. Different people act differently in combat, it's a cliche because it's true. Those that have taken all the abuse you can give them, might fold when it's their life on the line, others that can't handle insults properly, can still react well under fire, as they have a weapon to shoot back with that they know how to use. Don't be so quick to judge, based on second hand accounts and your own opinion.

[Rob Wilson]

You haven't had much experience being on the receiving end of hazing, have you? If people get injured in the army, no big deal as such, it's an occupational hazard, and they'll recover just fine if given time enough to recover. But if you start actively hazing them because they got hurt (not necessarily even through any fault of their own) and telling them they're worthless, and if everyone else around them does it too, it won't take long for depression to set in and motivation to vanish. Performance suffers as a result, and recovery from illness or injuries becomes slower. If it continues long enough it always ends badly. That he finally collapsed for the reason he did has actually nothing to do with how he would have behaved in combat had he been in his own unit, not suffering from abuse.

You have a valid point about the isolation giving him problems, without being a member of your own section and being surrounded by people that are as down as you could have been a contributing factor here. However I'm amazed it lead to suicide. Even hazing at it's worse never got so bad I ever contemplated suicide, and I was a quiet, bookish student with hardly any social skills or body mass when I joined up. You just get on with it, come through the other side and after a while it all stops, especially when you learn to joke back or take the sting out of it. But he was in there for only 2 weeks, how the hell could he get that dispondent so fast?

I thik this was th first time he wasn't the star, and he was beating himself up about it, rather than getting on with it. Putting an injured soldier in a PLatoon seperate from his section, is not a good idea, and I'm bemused as to what the hell the rationale for it is meant to be.

[Edi]

You have a valid point about the isolation giving him problems, without being a member of your own section and being surrounded by people that are as down as you could have been a contributing factor here. However I'm amazed it lead to suicide. Even hazing at it's worse never got so bad I ever contemplated suicide, and I was a quiet, bookish student with hardly any social skills or body mass when I joined up.

I know, that's also something I don't understand. The shit I got in the army toward the end was of the malicious kind that sometimes manifests toward those who don't bitch and complain about every little thing and who don't see the army as a complete shithole (this can be a problem in conscriot armies, especially if not nipped in the bud by the officers. NCOs, being conscripts as well, are often either a part of the problem or simply not equipped to handle it). Sure, it got on my nerves somewhat, depressed me some and affected my performance some and my spirits a bit more, but suicide was never something I ever thought of.

You just get on with it, come through the other side and after a while it all stops, especially when you learn to joke back or take the sting out of it. But he was in there for only 2 weeks, how the hell could he get that dispondent so fast?

I thik this was th first time he wasn't the star, and he was beating himself up about it, rather than getting on with it.

You're quite probably right here.

Putting an injured soldier in a PLatoon seperate from his section, is not a good idea, and I'm bemused as to what the hell the rationale for it is meant to be.

I don't have anything resembling a sane answer to that. It seems so obviously to be just a recipe for far more problems than it solves. About the best I can come up with is

Edi

[Knife]

OK, first off, it seems to me that the BS is the parents excuse in dealing with their grief. Love ones tend to search for excuses for the problems of the ones they love. Pvt. Williams could have had any number of problems not including his appearent harassment. So total blame on some sort of hollywood style 'code red' is some what far fetched.

For genuine injuries, no, troops do not seriously harass each other. For those who somehow always seem to be injured or take little injuries and milk it for all the light duty they can get, they do get harassed. Frequently they are called broke-dicks, or shit-birds.

True, civilian docs are notorious for over perscribing and making federal cases out of simple injurires. Military doctors are no different. It is a running joke that if you want some time off, grab your back and scream like a bitch. Back injuries are tricky and Doc's usualy don't take chances.

It really doesn't take long for shitbirds to find the loopholes in the system and exploit it. I am not saying that Pvt. Williams did this, just that their is a portion of military personell that does.

I personally can't stand a malingerer because someone else has to pick up the slack. People can do much more than they realize if they are willing to push themselves. People requiring light duty for little shit will most likely get harassed

Agreed, a shitbird is a shitbird. However, I have always been an advocate of; if your injured, stay down until your healed.

I once saw a Marine hike for a little over two miles on a broken ankle before he was forced by the corpsman to get in the medivan. It is all mental fortitude.
It seems likely to me if he killed himself from the stress of being ridiculed for being injured, then he would have folded like that under the stress of combat.

Train like you fight and fight like your trained. While overblatnet acts of stupidity should be discouraged, if you train like the boyscouts, you'll fight like boyscouts when the shit hits the fan.

It should be noted, that the idiot you mentioned should have hit the Hummer. The old saying; "Good inititive, bad judgment." come to mind.

Still, back on topic, if the Private did die because of the harrassment, and I would feel horrible and express condolenses, the private had bigger problems than the harrassment and should have been weeded out before being in the military. Depression, low self esteem and the lot, represent a danger to the applicant and to his team mates if he allowed to join the military.

On the other hand, if he was driven to it by harrassment, then those responsible should be investigated and punished.

[Rob Wilson]

]For genuine injuries, no, troops do not seriously harass each other. For those who somehow always seem to be injured or take little injuries and milk it for all the light duty they can get, they do get harassed. Frequently they are called broke-dicks, or shit-birds.

True, civilian docs are notorious for over perscribing and making federal cases out of simple injurires. Military doctors are no different. It is a running joke that if you want some time off, grab your back and scream like a bitch. Back injuries are tricky and Doc's usualy don't take chances.

It really doesn't take long for shitbirds to find the loopholes in the system and exploit it. I am not saying that Pvt. Williams did this, just that their is a portion of military personell that does.

Well the Military Doctors are normally shithot at spotting fake injuries, as there are all sorts of different tests and you only need to slip up on one for them to realise what's happening. For instance, Wankstain grabs back ad screams. Doctors look at it and get him to try and lift their leg against a nild pressure. Wankstain screams and makes a performance. So the Doctor asks him to turn over, and Wankstain does so without any problems - not realising that the same pressures and greater torsion are are placed on the spine by this movement. And that's just one way. As to Foot, Knee and Ligament injuries, they are by far the most common and they'll spot a fake a mile off.

For more serious cases, they'll get sent straight to a Civvy Hospital for the appropriate scans and tests. Good help the Pondlife that wastes time and money on that!

Sure there are probably some that get through the net, but it's harder and harder every year and that's the way it should be.

Still, back on topic, if the Private did die because of the harrassment, and I would feel horrible and express condolenses, the private had bigger problems than the harrassment and should have been weeded out before being in the military. Depression, low self esteem and the lot, represent a danger to the applicant and to his team mates if he allowed to join the military.

On the other hand, if he was driven to it by harrassment, then those responsible should be investigated and punished.

I think there had to be something else here. I'm sure that studies of Suicides show that it's lack of somewhere to turn and someone to talk to that leads people to thinking of Suicide as the only alternative, but this guy talked to his parents and talked to the others in the R&D platoon. Something just doesn't add up, how can 2 weeks of being the butt of jokes lead to suicide when he had survived Basic and was in Comms with people who cared about him?

[Knife]

I think there had to be something else here. I'm sure that studies of Suicides show that it's lack of somewhere to turn and someone to talk to that leads people to thinking of Suicide as the only alternative, but this guy talked to his parents and talked to the others in the R&D platoon. Something just doesn't add up, how can 2 weeks of being the butt of jokes lead to suicide when he had survived Basic and was in Comms with people who cared about him?

Pretty much what I am thinking. I believe the parents are latching on to the harrassment situation of justify the god awful fact that their son killed himself.