Why did the Federation outlive the Empire?

[Darth Yoshi]

Touché.

At any rate, I have to agree with Knife. The SW Empire was waging an internal war against counter-revolutionaries who wanted a return to the status quo of old. The Federation on the other hand, is always fighting against an external threat.

[Setzer]

On paper, it should never have happened. The Empire is vastly superior to the Federation in terms on its military, with far inferior exterior enemies to contend with than their Star Trek counterparts. However, even for the Federations comparatively weak military and [federal?] democratic [some would argue Communist, but this is irrelevent] system, their survivability is vastly superior to the Empire's, surviving countless wars to not only retain its pre-eminient position but also continuing to expand, whereas by 700 years after its creation it is not a local Empire, but a galaxy spanning one.

So, what went wrong for the Empire? Why did the most powerful traditional organisation in The Big 3 capitulate so quickly, while the weaker, more fragmented Federation flourished to become such a powerful organisation [debatably by the 29th Century, the greatest the Big Three has ever seen]?

I'd say the Empire wasn't really designed to function without Palpatine. Of course, he wasn't expecting to die, but who does?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Well, in all fairness, he had a good plan for immortality.

I would say the Empire still exists in the Remnant as the Roman Empire existed in Byzantium. So, its still there.

According to the DS9 companion, the Fed was originally intended to LOSE the dominion war, which would have laid the ground for "Andromeda" set in a post-apocalypic trekverse. But TPTB decided it would be too "depressing".

[YT300000]

Well, in all fairness, he had a good plan for immortality.

I would say the Empire still exists in the Remnant as the Roman Empire existed in Byzantium. So, its still there.

According to the DS9 companion, the Fed was originally intended to LOSE the dominion war, which would have laid the ground for "Andromeda" set in a post-apocalypic trekverse. But TPTB decided it would be too "depressing".

The Remnant is a mere shadow of the vastness, glory and power of the Empire.

[Peregrin Toker]

Couldn't it be that the Federation survived longer than the Empire because it's less centralized?

[RedImperator]

I'm with Fanboy. The Empire was just the Old Republic's dying gasp--things were coming to pieces as early as the time of Ep. I, probably much earlier. Palpatine dismantled most of the structures that held the Republic together (namely the Senate and the Jedi) while establishing his New Order, which depended entirely on his cult of personality and enforcement through fear of people like Drth Vader. When he died, there was nothing left to hold the civilization together, and the presense of dozens or hundreds of local Imperial commanders with nobody to report to, enough individual power to depopulate entire sectors, and no real desire to submit to any new central authority didn't help. The Rebellion/New Republic waited for these warlords to grind each other into dust and then took control of the galaxy, but I think their anemic response to the Vong invasion says a great deal about the New Republic's actual strength or lack thereof (it's the only possible explanation that I can think of that gives the Vong a realistic chance to do what they atually did, short of a galaxywide outbreak of Darkstar disease).

[Slartibartfast]

It's very simple, actually. On one hand you have an elected government, where the ruler(s) himself isn't the government, and he changes every so often, and nobody really cares who is in charge, as long as the rules are followed (the case of the Old Republic or the Federation). On the other hand, you have an Empire, which like a Kingdom or somesuch other, all turns around a single person. Unless that person has some "next in line" to rule, like a son or his Prime Minister or whoever he wants (which Palpatine didn't), it's no surprise that such governments only last for less than a century, until such person dies of natural causes or some other reason like being tossed into a giant furnace.

If a President/Chancellor/whatever died, another would be elected, or somebody would substitute him. If an Emperor dies, the whole things falls apart since nobody else has the same drive or ambition that the Emperor had in the first place to build the whole thing.

[RedImperator]

It's more complicated than that. Monarchies have elaborate and rigid rules of succession to ensure a legitimate heir to the throne. The definition of "Empire" is more fluid, as the only real requirement for an empire is that one sovereign state gain direct political control over one or more others. The Chinese Empire was ruled by a succession of long-lived monarchial lines characterized by an orderly transfer of power between one sovereign and the next. The government of the Roman Empire, on the other hand, was a legal fiction--technically, the Republic was never disbanded; the characters we call the emperors merely assumed all the necessary titles and offices to exercise complete control over the army, bureaucracy, aristocracy, and the masses simultaneously. It was impossible to establish a system of succession legally, which meant not only that when a good emperor died, he might get replaced by a total schmuck, but that killing an emperor was a workable means of political advancement for anybody with enough legions backing them (in a monarchy, assasination is pointless unless one is next in the legal line of succession or you kill everybody in the royal family who matters).

In the case of the Galactic Empire (which I would argue isn't a true empire because it was wholly contiguous with the boundaries of the Galactic Republic, unless there's some EU stuff I don't know about), it was just a matter of Palpatine making the classic dictator mistake: he provided for no means of succession in the case of his death. This may have been, if you believe all that EU nonsense about clones and the like, because he planned on living forver, or it just could have been that he felt having a strong successor would be a threat to him. He also, as I mentioned above, dismantled the structures that had held the Republic together that might have been able to prevent the warlord period. The Jedi, obviously, had to be destroyed for him to succede, but he also dissolved the Senate, which could have elected a successor to him to hold the Empire together, and at any rate would have had a measure of legitimacy if it attempted to govern the Empire directly, and he filled the ranks of the Imperial armed forces with commanders who were loyal to him rather than the Empire, and when he disappeared, they became loyal only to themselves.

Actually, Palpatine's system may not actually have been a mistake. He may have deliberately engineered the Empire to be unstable as a way of keeping his subordinates in check. If Palpatine is the only thing holding the New Order together, then it's in the interests of those who have benefited from the New Order to see that he's protected, especially from potential rivals of the people in question.

[jegs2]

The empire is still around, the Imperial Reminant led by Palleon (IIRC), so this entire thread is worthless.

Those were my thoughts. While the Emperor was destroyed and the Empire's grip on the periphery weakened, they're still a powerful force...

[Howedar]

In the case of the Galactic Empire (which I would argue isn't a true empire because it was wholly contiguous with the boundaries of the Galactic Republic, unless there's some EU stuff I don't know about), it was just a matter of Palpatine making the classic dictator mistake: he provided for no means of succession in the case of his death.

Actually I would say that he did establish a fairly clear successor, if not a line of them.

Vader would have been the obvious guy to take charge if the Emperor had died. Of course, that doesn't help a lot when they both die at once.

[RedImperator]

Vader would have been the obvious guy to take charge if the Emperor had died. Of course, that doesn't help a lot when they both die at once.

True. Still, as was made obvious by events of ROTJ, having only one successor and no other political body capable of selecting a legitimate alternate successor if the entire line is wiped out is a recipe for catastrophe. If he'd kept the Senate around, they could have at least lent a measure of legitimacy to one of the warlords, which may have allowed the government to stabilize.

[Death from the Sea]

The empire is still around, the Imperial Reminant led by Palleon (IIRC), so this entire thread is worthless.

Oh cmon, that's like saying Rome still stands, and thus so does the Roman Empire. The fact that the Empire went from 25,000 ISD's to 200 kind of indicates little downturn in their fortunes ...

Not really, the difference is that the Imperial Remnant are actuall forces left over from the Galactic Empire. Now if there were some of those old Roman Soldiers around from the Roman Empire then.... maybe you could make that comparison. I would say the Empire still lives, just not at the standard of living it used to be at. As long as there are people fighting for the Empire, the Empire is alive.

[jegs2]

Not really, the difference is that the Imperial Remnant are actuall forces left over from the Galactic Empire. Now if there were some of those old Roman Soldiers around from the Roman Empire then.... maybe you could make that comparison. I would say the Empire still lives, just not at the standard of living it used to be at. As long as there are people fighting for the Empire, the Empire is alive.

Good point -- haven't seen any centurions roming about on my travels...

[Matt7]

The Force is duct tape! It's got a dark side, a light side, and it binds the Universe togeather.

The Force can't fix everything. Duct tape does.

Ask Anakin Solo about that one

[Admiral Johnason]

The empire is still around, the Imperial Reminant led by Palleon (IIRC), so this entire thread is worthless.

It is only 40-50 years old as of now. The Federation is 700 by current estimations.

[Darth Fanboy]

The empire is still around, the Imperial Reminant led by Palleon (IIRC), so this entire thread is worthless.

It is only 40-50 years old as of now. The Federation is 700 by current estimations.

And the Empire succeeded the Galactic Republic which lasted for 25,000 years, and only changed its name from Republic to Empire while keeping the same leader, henceforth the Federation still has a long ways to go in outlasting the Galactic republic/Empire. The Imperial Remnant is NOT the same as the Empire as it features a completely different style of government, does not control a majority of the galaxy, and in fact is a nation of its own in a much more fragmented galaxy.

[Vympel]

With that point I think we can lock this sucker.