Fuck - even the M2HBs jammed...(PFC Lynch)

[MKSheppard]

M-16s Jammed During Ambush in Iraq

Unreleased Army Report Cites Weapons Malfunctions, Desert Conditions

By Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, July 10, 2003; Page A14

When Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch's lost maintenance company was ambushed in Nasiriyah, Iraq, on March 23, many of the unit's soldiers were unable to defend themselves because their weapons malfunctioned, according to an Army report.

"These malfunctions," the report says, "may have resulted from inadequate individual maintenance in a desert environment" where sand, heat and improper maintenance combined to render the weapons inoperable.

The report on the incident, scheduled to be released this week, adds new details to the circumstances reported last month by The Washington Post, which described how the 18-vehicle convoy got lost in the southern Iraqi city after its company commander, Capt. Troy King, did not receive word that the larger column it was following had changed routes. The convoy then made several navigational errors, which required the slow, lumbering vehicles to make two U-turns in the middle of hostile territory.

One half of the 507th Maintenance Company, 33 soldiers in all, had fallen as much as 12 hours behind the miles-long column of vehicles moving north. Eleven of the company's soldiers were killed in combat or died from injuries; six were captured by Iraqi forces and later freed, including Lynch. The remaining 16 sped to safety.

U.S. officials, relying on unconfirmed, initial intelligence reports from Iraq, told The Post after Lynch's rescue on April 1 that she fired at Iraqi troops until her ammunition ran out and that she was either shot or stabbed. The investigation found that Lynch was neither shot nor stabbed, but sustained most of her injuries after the Humvee she was riding in crashed into another Army vehicle.

The Army report said the unit's soldiers "fought the best they could until there was no longer a means to resist. They defeated ambushes, overcame hastily prepared enemy obstacles, defended one another, provided life-saving aid, and inflicted casualties on the enemy."

The Army does not intend to bring disciplinary action against any unit member, said one Army official, who declined to be named because the report has not been released.

The report offers new insight into the harrowing 60 to 90 minutes in which members of the convoy took heavy fire while trying to rescue their comrades. It said they were dealing with vehicles and weapons that broke down when they were most needed.

The unit's 18-vehicle convoy had broken into three clusters as the unit retraced its route. "Most soldiers" in the first group reported that their M-16s malfunctioned as they tried to "return fire while moving," the report said.

When Cpl. Damien Luten, sitting in the passenger seat of a 5-ton tractor-trailer in the second group, attempted to fire the unit's only .50- caliber machine gun, it failed, the report said. Luten was wounded in the leg while reaching for his M-16. Spec. James Grubb, in the passenger seat of a 5-ton fuel truck, "returned fire with his M-16 until wounded in both arms, despite reported jamming of his weapon," it said.

The third group of vehicles, which included the Humvee in which Lynch was riding, also had weapons problems.

After Lynch's Humvee crashed, Sgt. James Riley ran with two other soldiers to see if the vehicle's occupants could be saved. His weapon jammed. Riley reached for 1st Sgt. Robert Dowdy's M-16 to use instead. Dowdy had been killed instantly in the crash. Riley ordered the two soldiers with him to take cover and then tried to use each of their M-16s against the Iraqis. "But both jammed," the report said.

The two soldiers, Spec. Edgar Hernandez and Spec. Shoshana Johnson, were wounded, and "with no means to continue to resist, Sgt. Riley made the decision to surrender the two soldiers and himself."

Spec. Joseph Hudson attempted to fire his M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon as he drove a huge wrecker towing a 5-ton tractor-trailer that had broken down. But the weapon malfunctioned. After driving past obstacles and debris strewn in his path, the vehicle broke down on the southern edge of the city as he neared safety. Iraqi forces fired on the stalled wrecker, killing Hudson's passenger, Chief Warrant Officer Johnny Villareal Mata.

Hudson, "also wounded, was immediately surrounded after the shooting stopped, and was pulled from the vehicle by Iraqis and captured."

Hudson, Riley, Miller, Hernandez and Johnson were later freed from captivity.

U.S. officials also said recently that Lynch's weapon may have jammed during the ambush. Because she was seated between two other soldiers, however, it is also possible she did not fire it, one Army official said yesterday.

The report, which was published on the El Paso Times Web site yesterday, does not refer to Lynch's weapon having jammed.

Army investigators said Lynch was mistreated during captivity, but they have not been specific. Lynch has told family members she does not recall all her time in captivity and the report does not address the matter, which is under review in connection with a possible war crimes prosecution.

© 2003 The Washington Post Company

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... 3Jul9.html

[Montcalm]

If the M-16 allways jammed why are they still using the damn weapon.

[Sea Skimmer]

Not exactly surprising that a rear area unit that maintains Patriot firing units had shitty weapons.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Maybe the Army should look at the "riflemen first" mentality of the Marines. It doesnt surprise me that a unit like this had many faulty weapons, although I heard they had been on the move for many days. I suppose its possible they didnt have time to clean them. I dunno, Im not a weapons expert.

[Howedar]

"We're just maintenance. We don't engage in combat. Why waste time cleaning and mantaining our personal weapons?"

[Knife]

"We're just maintenance. We don't engage in combat. Why waste time cleaning and mantaining our personal weapons?"

Indeed.

[Vympel]

Ironic that a Maintenance Company couldn't even look after their own weapons. Result? Worst day of the war.

[Tsyroc]

Ironic that a Maintenance Company couldn't even look after their own weapons. Result? Worst day of the war.

You can bet that a lot of maintenance companies will be hearing stories about this one for a long time.

[The Yosemite Bear]

On the otherside, I can recall from my stepfather numerous horror stories about how hard it was to GET materials to maintain a weapon, and about who his airborn squad switched to WWII era SMGs because keeping a certain rifle operational was impossible. Of course captured Russian Equipment and Gurka Knives they got from the Aussies helped too.

[Vympel]

It was because of the standard issue lubricant used. Great normally, crap in the desert- it just sucks up dirt and dust. Most *combat* units new this, and bought their own Militech lubricant. But the maintenance people didn't know.

Also, I doubt they were very effective soldiers in the first place.

[jegs2]

The M-16 is a perfectly good weapon. Lack of basic soldier skills is a likely explanation for why the weapons jammed. If one doesn't conduct proper PMCS on his equipment, then he can hardly be surprised when it doesn't work at the moment of truth. Moreover, CSS units are notoriously poor marksmen, and they have little time on their training schedules during which to focus on basic soldier combat skills...

[Stuart Mackey]

The M-16 is a perfectly good weapon. Lack of basic soldier skills is a likely explanation for why the weapons jammed. If one doesn't conduct proper PMCS on his equipment, then he can hardly be surprised when it doesn't work at the moment of truth. Moreover, CSS units are notoriously poor marksmen, and they have little time on their training schedules during which to focus on basic soldier combat skills...

This maybe so, but its a piss poor excuse when in a combat zone..the time should have been made to make sure they were up to par on marksmanship and basic soldier skills.
NZ transport soldiers would reguly engage in combat for the hell of it in the desert {WW2}and did not have these issues. Soldiers from logggie battalions and sigs squadrons we sent to Timor were drilled to hell and gone in infantry work from weapons maintance up to patroling techniques and beyoned.

In short, what the fuck was wrong with this US unit? and why has its CO not been casheired?.

[jegs2]

This maybe so, but its a piss poor excuse when in a combat zone..the time should have been made to make sure they were up to par on marksmanship and basic soldier skills.
NZ transport soldiers would reguly engage in combat for the hell of it in the desert {WW2}and did not have these issues. Soldiers from logggie battalions and sigs squadrons we sent to Timor were drilled to hell and gone in infantry work from weapons maintance up to patroling techniques and beyoned.

In short, what the fuck was wrong with this US unit? and why has its CO not been casheired?.

You're right -- it is an excuse, and a poor one at that. The CO would likely tell you that there was too little white space on his calendar to train basic soldier skills and combat drills (roll-over, react to incoming artillery, react to ambush, etc.). He would also likely complain that his (or her) mission requirements prevented such training -- such things as maintaining a high OR rate on vehicles and meeting the supply mission of the supported combat units. If he is correct, then the BN or BDE commander may be micromanaging companies, not allowing company commanders to train and command their companies. I'm certain that a Commanders's Inquiry is already underway, so some of those issues should be answered.

[Stuart Mackey]

This maybe so, but its a piss poor excuse when in a combat zone..the time should have been made to make sure they were up to par on marksmanship and basic soldier skills.
NZ transport soldiers would reguly engage in combat for the hell of it in the desert {WW2}and did not have these issues. Soldiers from logggie battalions and sigs squadrons we sent to Timor were drilled to hell and gone in infantry work from weapons maintance up to patroling techniques and beyoned.

In short, what the fuck was wrong with this US unit? and why has its CO not been casheired?.

You're right -- it is an excuse, and a poor one at that. The CO would likely tell you that there was too little white space on his calendar to train basic soldier skills and combat drills (roll-over, react to incoming artillery, react to ambush, etc.). He would also likely complain that his (or her) mission requirements prevented such training -- such things as maintaining a high OR rate on vehicles and meeting the supply mission of the supported combat units. If he is correct, then the BN or BDE commander may be micromanaging companies, not allowing company commanders to train and command their companies. I'm certain that a Commanders's Inquiry is already underway, so some of those issues should be answered.

I hope they are answered, for your soldiers sake, as there was buckets of time befor the Iraq war kicked of. After all, even if you are fighting the Iraqies, if your training is not up to it, you are going to get killed and it does not matter what army you are in, or what kit you have.

[EmperorMing]

"We're just maintenance. We don't engage in combat. Why waste time cleaning and mantaining our personal weapons?"

Indeed.

Idiots. I was in maintenance and I always cleaned mine at some point. That is just lazy to the point of getting yourself killed. Oops, I think that happened.

[MKSheppard]

To be fair to the 507th, this was right after that "Sandstorm of God", and
EVERYTHING that wasn't under cover, was crapped up. Frontline combat
units caught in the storm had M-2s ,etc jam on them after the storm until
they cleaned everything out GOOD

[Knife]

To be fair to the 507th, this was right after that "Sandstorm of God", and
EVERYTHING that wasn't under cover, was crapped up. Frontline combat
units caught in the storm had M-2s ,etc jam on them after the storm until
they cleaned everything out GOOD

NO offense, but if your in a combat zone, the first thing you consider is the reliability of your weapon systems. Both mission accomplishment and troop wellfare depend on your weapons working.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Anyone else remember the 1979 Helo rescue attempt of the US embassy Hostages in Iran?......

Not even supply folks are capable of secumbing to Sand storm=nothing works, we lost multipal birds full of our BEST in htat other mission.

Colin quiet down with the Devil's advocate talk, you may annoy the other Habbites...

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The M-16 is a perfectly good weapon. Lack of basic soldier skills is a likely explanation for why the weapons jammed. If one doesn't conduct proper PMCS on his equipment, then he can hardly be surprised when it doesn't work at the moment of truth. Moreover, CSS units are notoriously poor marksmen, and they have little time on their training schedules during which to focus on basic soldier combat skills...

I have no doubt that the M-16 is a pretty good weapon. I wonder, however, whether the US could find a less maintenance intensive weapon.

I've heard that at least some models of M16s require daily cleanings and ten weight sewing oil to keep working reliably - something I'd gladly forgo if at all possible.

Of course, any gun would work better when it is kept nice and clean, but could they find one that's more likely to work even when it is not cleaned? Even if the gun is less accurate, a rear echelon troop is unlikely to need that extra range as much - since they apparently skimp on their marksmanship too, they can't really use that extra accuracy.

Just a thought.

[Sea Skimmer]

I have no doubt that the M-16 is a pretty good weapon. I wonder, however, whether the US could find a less maintenance intensive weapon.

The US Army already has programs underway to pretty much completely replace the M16 and M4, using a mix of XM-29's and XM-8's. Both weapons 5.56mm mechanism is that of the G36, which supposedly requires less maintenance.

[Coyote]

The US Army trains soldiers to clean M-16s and all other weapons leaving them with a "light coat of oil" which is a dust sponge in the desert. The M-16 can fire dry but yuo cannot undo years of trainig with the flick of a switch. The "light coat of oil" is like a mantra for proper weapons maintenance.

Plus, forces like the Maintenance troops simply do not train with their weapons and do not care. They really do have the attitude that "I'll never see combat so who cares?" The lack of basic soldiering skills is deplorable-- I bet Lynch and her buddies probably fired their weapons once a year on the average and that was it. Even failures would be "pencil-whipped" into lowest required scores just so they could get their tickets punched.

It is unfortunate that this head-in-the-sand mentality may have been a contributing factor to this unit's destruction. Basic skills and reaction drills may have saved them-- as well as some climate awareness.

[jegs2]

While this has no bearing on the situation of the ambushed CSS platoon in Iraq, I was reading an account on the Battle of Shiloh between Federal and Confederate forces in 1862. The losses in men were counted in the tens of thousands -- whole brigades and divisions lost in a shockingly short period of time. I read of men wading into a withering hail of fire as their comrades were cut down to the left and right. It is amazing what we now flinch at in terms of losses when compared to such battles as that. While I know that the instant availability of news and information in this day and age holds large sway over this, it still awes me to read of those savage and bloody battles so long ago...

[Montcalm]

While this has no bearing on the situation of the ambushed CSS platoon in Iraq, I was reading an account on the Battle of Shiloh between Federal and Confederate forces in 1862. The losses in men were counted in the tens of thousands -- whole brigades and divisions lost in a shockingly short period of time. I read of men wading into a withering hail of fire as their comrades were cut down to the left and right. It is amazing what we now flinch at in terms of losses when compared to such battles as that. While I know that the instant availability of news and information in this day and age holds large sway over this, it still awes me to read of those savage and bloody battles so long ago...

I guess some think we can have clean war,without any losses of life now.

[Ace Pace]

While this has no bearing on the situation of the ambushed CSS platoon in Iraq, I was reading an account on the Battle of Shiloh between Federal and Confederate forces in 1862. The losses in men were counted in the tens of thousands -- whole brigades and divisions lost in a shockingly short period of time. I read of men wading into a withering hail of fire as their comrades were cut down to the left and right. It is amazing what we now flinch at in terms of losses when compared to such battles as that. While I know that the instant availability of news and information in this day and age holds large sway over this, it still awes me to read of those savage and bloody battles so long ago...

it allway's rises up in my mind, that with today's mindset over losing a few people, how could the US EVER attempt to fight.

[Sir Sirius]

Sorry, but I just couldn't resist...