David Brin's thoughts on AotC

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2002-09-18 09:33pm

Concerned Onlooker wrote:I found this article by David Brin to have some interesting points, and he has an EXCELLENT idea for Episode 3 that could tie all of the movies together, explaining some odd scenes from the first five movies.

Excellent? Well, it is an excellent demonstration of why every two-bit washout artist who hangs around Hollywood shouldn't be given a column in a media rag.

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-09-18 09:41pm

The guy makes no sense, at one point he seems to complain about how the Jedi aren't perfect (don't check up on Anakin's mom, make stupid decisions), even though they're not supposed to be perfect, of course, if Lucas had made them perfect, Brin would be harping on about how Lucas is still promoting his Jedi Master Race as the aristocratic rulers of humanity or some such crap.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2002-09-18 09:45pm

If it's any consolation, the business that published Brin's initial anti-SW rant (plus many others by different authors), Salon.com, will be out of business soon.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2002-09-19 09:53pm

I have come to a conclusion. If you dont understand or know what the hell is going on in the SW universe you arent going to like the movies. As we already know and have known for quite a while is that SW fans love Attack of the Clones (well most of us) while non SW fans or people that dont understand the full plot line and what really happend in AOTC with the Empire really showing its face with an army at one mans disposal know didnt like it. I asked many people of their opinion and all the non SW fans that did go watch it said it was bad.

and with my theory Mr. Brin dosent know shit of SW or hes just a dick.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-09-19 10:53pm

Not exactly true. A friend of mine who never got or even liked Star Wars for years was instantly converted when he went to see AotC with his other friends. I was in shock that literally overnight he was a Star Wars fan. Same thing happened with another friend who wasn't as much as a fan as he is now. After AotC they both got JK II and we have lots of fun lightsaber battles.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-09-19 10:55pm

PS: The one that was instantly converted called Darth Vader, "the scary man in the black mask," and Darth Maul, "black horny guy." ROFL

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-19 11:31pm

Tychu wrote:I have come to a conclusion. If you dont understand or know what the hell is going on in the SW universe you arent going to like the movies.

This is consistently true with all fictional universes. That is why Lord of the Flies took so long to be accepted. That is why Lord of the Rings was not an instant success. That is why The Great Gatsby did not meet with instant praise. Fact is, many critics take a long time before fully understanding the symbolism and depth behind many of the great works of fiction. Just look at how Bladerunner was received when it first came out, and how it is seen today. What makes the critics' dismissal of Star Wars particularly galling is that they are being told all the while that it is a great symbolic saga. David Brin, in this article, even recognized the symbolism when he talked about heroes. Yet STILL they don't believe people like Campbell, me, and even some of their fellow critics. And they've had 25-30 years to figure the saga out. Their inability to do so represents a complete failure on the part of the movie industry to promote films that are intended to operate on many levels. They're pathetic. And further, if they actually recognized films like AotC for what they really are, they would probably BENEFIT from it, because more people would end up going to movies.

Neko_Oni · Post by **Neko_Oni** » 2002-09-20 08:12am

I have to agree that Brin was fairly pretentious and envious in that 'review' of AotC, but in all honesty it wasn't THAT great a movie. I mean I liked the plot and the CG was brilliant. However the actor who plays Anakin was horrible and Natalie Portman (while she is very fine) didn't seem to really put much effort into the movie.

Like all things this is just an opinion. Hope I don't get flamed for it.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-09-20 01:03pm

We're refering to the fact that Brin has absolutely no fucking clue as to what the thematic elements of the Star Wars saga are.

greenmm · Post by **greenmm** » 2002-09-20 03:18pm

Faram wrote:Ack no edit...

The PAIN ! i saw that Brin is the sicko that managed to type up the utter crap The Postman.
Wonder what he thinks about costner? He probebly blames him on the utter failure of that film

Was he involved in the Postman film? His novel was written years before it, and was much better than the movie (particularly with the 2 sets of "super-soldiers" developed by the US).

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-09-20 09:55pm

I read the article, and it appears less paranoid, but he still doesn't get the point of the Star Wars plot. He brings up the "threat to democracy" nonsense less, and doesn't turn it into a biased comparison with Star Trek, like he did on his TPM article. Still, there's many signs that he didn't quite get the plot for some reason.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-09-20 10:43pm

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:doesn't turn it into a biased comparison with Star Trek, like he did on his TPM article

It was less obvious but he did take afew cheap shots along those very lines. He just couldn't help himself. Probably because he's of a similarly PC mushmined school of sci-fi writing as B&B.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-21 01:24am

Stormbringer wrote:
Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:doesn't turn it into a biased comparison with Star Trek, like he did on his TPM article
It was less obvious but he did take afew cheap shots along those very lines. He just couldn't help himself. Probably because he's of a similarly PC mushmined school of sci-fi writing as B&B.

Incidentally, is there anyway he can justify that point of view with Enterprise out? Seriously, Enterprise is a racist show. Note the treatment of Vulcans, other aliens, and even within the crew itself! That has got to be considered racist, if not worse. Star Trek, since TOS, has not helped the racial problems within America. It has hardly even addressed them in a responsible manner. Enterprise just happens to be the most blatant. It is clearly not a PC show. In fact, it is the exact opposite. One wonders why David Brin isn't going after them.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2002-09-21 02:04am

Master of Ossus wrote:Seriously, Enterprise is a racist show. Note the treatment of Vulcans, other aliens, and even within the crew itself! That has got to be considered racist, if not worse. Star Trek, since TOS, has not helped the racial problems within America. It has hardly even addressed them in a responsible manner. Enterprise just happens to be the most blatant. It is clearly not a PC show. In fact, it is the exact opposite. One wonders why David Brin isn't going after them.

<sniff, sniff> Smells like a black-and-white fallacy.

<throws WP grenade> Ignites like a strawman, too...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-21 10:17am

Enlightenment wrote:<sniff, sniff> Smells like a black-and-white fallacy.

<throws WP grenade> Ignites like a strawman, too...

What are you talking about? His entire first article was about how ST was morally more correct than SW, and one of his sub-points was about race. I really don't think that anyone can think about Enterprise and not think of it as being racist, although I acknowledge that some of the earlier Trek series (after TOS), may not have been purposely hurtful towards minorities.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-09-21 11:40am

although I acknowledge that some of the earlier Trek series (after TOS), may not have been purposely hurtful towards minorities.

The post TOS shows did it out of PC bullshit spawned ignorance which is no better really. They espoused some the stupidest racist bullshit I've ever seen and no one ever called them to account for it.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2002-09-21 10:50pm

Master of Ossus wrote:His entire first article was about how ST was morally more correct than SW, and one of his sub-points was about race.

First article.

This is the third article. He's not talking about Trek anymore. He's not comparing Wars to Trek anymore. He's talking about Wars and Wars alone. What he doesn't say about Trek is irrelevant.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2002-09-26 08:59am

Incidentally, is there anyway he can justify that point of view with Enterprise out? Seriously, Enterprise is a racist show. Note the treatment of Vulcans, other aliens, and even within the crew itself! That has got to be considered racist, if not worse. Star Trek, since TOS, has not helped the racial problems within America. It has hardly even addressed them in a responsible manner. Enterprise just happens to be the most blatant. It is clearly not a PC show. In fact, it is the exact opposite. One wonders why David Brin isn't going after them.

I haven't watched Enterprise, but how is it any worse in its racism than, for example, TNG???

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-26 07:58pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote: I haven't watched Enterprise, but how is it any worse in its racism than, for example, TNG???

Main characters are constantly harping about how Vulcans are evil because they are Vulcan, or how they don't trust Vulcans. They also talk about how inter-species relations are necessarily bad, and they do a lot to make Klingons and Vulcans seem stupider and humans seem smarter and more reasonable. One character even went so far as to say that T'Pol was not attractive BECAUSE she was Vulcan, etc.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-26 08:04pm

Enlightenment wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:His entire first article was about how ST was morally more correct than SW, and one of his sub-points was about race.
First article.

This is the third article. He's not talking about Trek anymore. He's not comparing Wars to Trek anymore. He's talking about Wars and Wars alone. What he doesn't say about Trek is irrelevant.

I think it's quite relevent. We're discussing Brin's ability to analyze SW films and science fiction in general, and that is a clear example of his inability to examine something in a reasonable manner.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2002-09-27 12:03am

Master of Ossus wrote:I think it's quite relevent. We're discussing Brin's ability to analyze SW films and science fiction in general, and that is a clear example of his inability to examine something in a reasonable manner.

Why? Because he's not slaming your favorite target in a commentary about your favorite space fantasy?

<sniff, sniff> Smells like the Azeron school of straw man debate.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-27 12:10am

Enlightenment wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:I think it's quite relevent. We're discussing Brin's ability to analyze SW films and science fiction in general, and that is a clear example of his inability to examine something in a reasonable manner.
Why? Because he's not slaming your favorite target in a commentary about your favorite space fantasy?

<sniff, sniff> Smells like the Azeron school of straw man debate.

What are you talking about? I was referring to his overall political views when I said that, and implying that his ability to determine the true political motive underlying a piece of fiction is highly suspect. It was not a strawman, but it was a red herring (and, perhaps a slight ad hominem) if you really want to stick only to the debate about this particular essay on AotC, but it does demonstrate him to have selective memory for doing things like this. A strawman is a different fallacy, but it would require that I alter my opponent's position. Until you came along, I really wasn't debating against anyone so much as I was just attacking an article and pointing out many of its flaws. When you came around, I readily admitted that it was a fallacy, but that I had included it because of his original essay. That is not a straw man, it is a red herring.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-27 12:11am

Enlightenment wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:I think it's quite relevent. We're discussing Brin's ability to analyze SW films and science fiction in general, and that is a clear example of his inability to examine something in a reasonable manner.
Why? Because he's not slaming your favorite target in a commentary about your favorite space fantasy?

<sniff, sniff> Smells like the Azeron school of straw man debate.

Further, this is an ad hominem attack, and could even potentially be construed as a straw man. You have attempted to use a previous discussion that I had against me, which is exactly what you accused me of doing! This is a double-standard.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-09-27 12:48am

Enlightenment wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:I think it's quite relevent. We're discussing Brin's ability to analyze SW films and science fiction in general, and that is a clear example of his inability to examine something in a reasonable manner.
Why? Because he's not slaming your favorite target in a commentary about your favorite space fantasy?

He's questioning Brin's ability to see what in front of his face. Brin's conclusions don't even come near the reality of the Stars Wars or Star Trek universes. He looks at them through some sort of warped world view that fails completely to intersect reailty.

In short Brin is a delusional moron and anything he says most be treated as suspect because of that.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-09-27 10:27am

Enlightenment wrote:Why? Because he's not slaming your favorite target in a commentary about your favorite space fantasy?

Also, I kind of resent this. B5 is my favorite universe. I'm a pro-Wars debater most of the time because I know full well that Star Wars would win any conflicts between them and the UFP or ISA.

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David Brin's thoughts on AotC

Re: David Brin's thoughts on AotC