B5: In The Beginning

[Sam Or I]

Is this considered B-5 Cannon? or is it to be considered a "story" told by Londo?

[Shadow WarChief]

It is considered canon. And this is from a B5 fan in case you ever argue against somebody who says only Non-B5 fans consider ITB canon.

However, I do think that any indescrepancies (if ever seen to exist. I have not seen any indescepancies in all the times I've watched), I would right it off as a Londo error.

[Shadow WarChief]

P.S. I would right off that particular piece of information as a Londo error. I wouldn't discount the whole movie

[Straha]

What contradictions are there between the movie and the series?

[Shadow WarChief]

What contradictions are there between the movie and the series?

Read my post a-fucking-gain

(if ever seen to exist. I have not seen any indescepancies in all the times I've watched)

[Straha]

I know what you said, but there must be some alleged discrepeinscies(sp?) between the movie and the series or else people wouldn't be saying it wasn't cannon.

[Darth Wong]

I know what you said, but there must be some alleged discrepeinscies(sp?) between the movie and the series or else people wouldn't be saying it wasn't cannon.

Best to leave him be, Straha. B5 fans are very touchy about the two megaton bombs destroying a Sharlin. They like to concoct various reasons why it was impossible for it to have done so, or to claim that there are huge contradictions between that incident and every other incident (despite Ivanova's "200 megawatt" guns or G'Kar's 600 megaton bombs which happened to be 5-10 times as big in any direction, ie- the volume ratio is similar to the ratio between 2 megatons and 600 megatons).

The standing rationale is that Londo made errors in his recollection, and that the video we saw was actually Londo's dream-state rather than video of the actual incident overlaid on his verbal story by the "omniscient observer" who takes all footage of fictional events in sci-fi (as if G'Kar would know individual words that were said on the bridge of Sheridan's ship or the face of the man who fired the first shot, ie- "King Arthur").

Of course, they'll probably dump an assload of flames on me for saying anything about this. Oh well, too bad.

[Enlightenment]

What contradictions are there between the movie and the series?

There's a few minor issues like the Sharlins being just as prone to spontainous detonation as the (Trek) Galaxy class, and a supposed Minbari plan to wipe out humanity that's utterly unsupported by the main universe description of how the E-M war was fought. As I said, just a few minor details.

Note: there's at least a few people who view all B5 stuff produced after the end of season 4 to be somewhat less than canon on the ground that later-era B5 really, really sucks.

[Patrick Degan]

What contradictions are there between the movie and the series?

The main discrepancy centres upon the details of the Black Star incident.

According to the second season opening episode "Points Of Departure", Capt. Sheridan describes the incident to Susan Ivanova thusly: that he mined an asteroid field between Mars and Jupiter with nukes which destroyed the Black Star along with two other cruisers; the only victory EarthForce enjoyed in the war.

According to Londo's retelling of the incident in In The Beginning, the asteroid field's location is unspecified, and the only Minbari vessels involved were the Black Star and a flyer which was used as a lure and possibly a spotter feeding telemetry to update the targeting for the jump against the Lexington task force. It is in this movie that the number and yield of the bombs is specified as three 2MT devices. Otherwise, most of the details of the two versions cohere.

There is a very slight discrepancy over just when Dukhat initiated Delenn as a member of the Grey Council, but nothing that can be specifically pointed to as a contradiction between material in season four's "Atonement" and the movie. The appearance of the Soul Hunter squadron in the battle zone where the Grey Council flagship was attacked by the Prometheus, seen in "Atonement", is not seen in the movie, but again there is no obvious contradiction between the two depictions.

Beyond that, any other differences are minor at best. In The Beginning corresponds with a high degree of correlation with the main series, so it is to be considered a fairly accurate historical artefact of the Babylon 5 universe, though the fact that it is presented as a tale being told by Londo Mollari thirty years after the fact of the events in question does make it one step removed from actual eyewitness testimony, such as the series episodes. The pilot episode, "The Gathering", is similarly classifiable particularly as the whole thing opens as a tale being related by Londo at some unspecified point in the future but which nevertheless has validity in the canon since events and characters of the pilot are repeatedly referenced in the series proper.

[Darth Wong]

According to the second season opening episode "Points Of Departure", Capt. Sheridan describes the incident to Susan Ivanova thusly: that he mined an asteroid field between Mars and Jupiter with nukes which destroyed the Black Star along with two other cruisers; the only victory EarthForce enjoyed in the war.

According to Londo's retelling of the incident in In The Beginning, the asteroid field's location is unspecified, and the only Minbari vessels involved were the Black Star and a flyer which was used as a lure and possibly a spotter feeding telemetry to update the targeting for the jump against the Lexington task force. It is in this movie that the number and yield of the bombs is specified as three 2MT devices. Otherwise, most of the details of the two versions cohere.

Why is that necessarily a contradiction? No overlaid video of the incident is shown when Sheridan recalls the incident, and as a matter of military history, soldiers often do exaggerate their own kills, even in official reports (look at the number of planes reported downed in WW2 battles and then compare them with the number of planes lost by each side's own records, which is obviously more accurate).

There is a very slight discrepancy over just when Dukhat initiated Delenn as a member of the Grey Council, but nothing that can be specifically pointed to as a contradiction between material in season four's "Atonement" and the movie. The appearance of the Soul Hunter squadron in the battle zone where the Grey Council flagship was attacked by the Prometheus, seen in "Atonement", is not seen in the movie, but again there is no obvious contradiction between the two depictions.

Yeah, but you know which particular tidbit of information has the B5ers so hopping mad about this episode.

[Stormbringer]

According to the second season opening episode "Points Of Departure", Capt. Sheridan describes the incident to Susan Ivanova thusly: that he mined an asteroid field between Mars and Jupiter with nukes which destroyed the Black Star along with two other cruisers; the only victory EarthForce enjoyed in the war.

And it never shows what happened after the Black Star was destroyed. A few more ships could have blundered and been destroyed later. The most important kill was the Black Star and JMS might have left them out due to time constraints.

[Darth Wong]

And it never shows what happened after the Black Star was destroyed. A few more ships could have blundered and been destroyed later. The most important kill was the Black Star and JMS might have left them out due to time constraints.

Good point. This would imply that the Minbari are morons, but it is basically a religious fundamentalist culture, so I guess that's not surprising. They cover up their dogmatic, inflexible, irrational thinking by speaking cryptically and blathering in a pseudo-philosophical style, but I don't think it should fool anyone.

[Stormbringer]

And it never shows what happened after the Black Star was destroyed. A few more ships could have blundered and been destroyed later. The most important kill was the Black Star and JMS might have left them out due to time constraints.

Good point. This would imply that the Minbari are morons, but it is basically a religious fundamentalist culture, so I guess that's not surprising. They cover up their dogmatic, inflexible, irrational thinking by speaking cryptically and blathering in a pseudo-philosophical style, but I don't think it should fool anyone.

It wouldn't suprise me if thats exactly what they did. The warrior caste seems to be some of the dumbest of the Minbari. Their contempt for humanity might blind them to the clever trap. The Blackstar probably didn't have a chance to tell them her consorts what happened so the next ships could have come in dumb. And if Sheridan did manage to take out two more ships that would go even further towards explaining the warrior castes especial hatered.

[Patrick Degan]

And it never shows what happened after the Black Star was destroyed. A few more ships could have blundered and been destroyed later. The most important kill was the Black Star and JMS might have left them out due to time constraints.

Good point. This would imply that the Minbari are morons, but it is basically a religious fundamentalist culture, so I guess that's not surprising. They cover up their dogmatic, inflexible, irrational thinking by speaking cryptically and blathering in a pseudo-philosophical style, but I don't think it should fool anyone.

It wouldn't suprise me if thats exactly what they did. The warrior caste seems to be some of the dumbest of the Minbari. Their contempt for humanity might blind them to the clever trap. The Blackstar probably didn't have a chance to tell them her consorts what happened so the next ships could have come in dumb. And if Sheridan did manage to take out two more ships that would go even further towards explaining the warrior castes especial hatered.

These are possible means to rectify the apparent contradictions between the series and the telemovie. I would point out that in the telemovie, Sheridan's mining of the asteroids was depicted as very much a last-ditch improvisation on his part. Furthermore, the scene immediately cuts to the replay of the warcruiser's destruction at the large military briefing/morale rally held to honour Commander Sheridan after he brings the Lexington home. But the possibility that he laid additional mines and waited for subsequent Minbari vessels to investigate the disappearance of the Black Star cannot be ruled out.

Likewise, Lord Wong's idea that Sheridan might have exaggerated his exploit when telling Susan Ivanova about it cannot be automatically ruled out, even though this seems less likely given what we've observed of Sheridan's personality in the series. But it is nevertheless a possibility.

The differences really are trivial, and I think those B5 fans tying themselves in knots over the issue are doing so for nothing.

[SpacedTeddyBear]

But the possibility that he laid additional mines and waited for subsequent Minbari vessels to investigate the disappearance of the Black Star cannot be ruled out.

Actually, it can be ruled out because when Sheridan asked how many tac. nukes they had left, the weapons officer said that they had three left. But then it took two to kill of the Black Star, so that leaves the 3rd one up in the air....err vacuum.

Yeah, but you know which particular tidbit of information has the B5ers so hopping mad
about this episode.

Not to sound ignorant, but which is that?

[Stormbringer]

But the possibility that he laid additional mines and waited for subsequent Minbari vessels to investigate the disappearance of the Black Star cannot be ruled out.

Actually, it can be ruled out because when Sheridan asked how many tac. nukes they had left, the weapons officer said that they had three left. But then it took two to kill of the Black Star, so that leaves the 3rd one up in the air....err vacuum.

He only asked about tactical nukes. Given that nuke are still the top dog weapon in B5 it's likely that they have other nukes onboard. Those were the ones he could get to most quickly. And they did have the other nuke still out there.

Yeah, but you know which particular tidbit of information has the B5ers so hopping mad
about this episode.

Not to sound ignorant, but which is that?

The fact that the Black Star was taken out by a pair of two megaton nukes. A lot of them have constructed frankly ridiculous explanations as to why it was a fluke event.

I tend to agree that it was caught with a golden BB but not that a Sharlin is orders of magnitude more powerful. I agree that Sheridan got lucky and managed to damage a weapons array enough that it blew up. Something like what happened with HMS Hood. A lucky hit in vulnerable place causing catastrohic damage and swift destruction. The best evidence, that it was a freak hit is that it was never repeated. It should have been easy to get a pair of nukes in range of warcruiser we never hear of a Sharlin being lost to a few small nukes.

[Patrick Degan]

But the possibility that he laid additional mines and waited for subsequent Minbari vessels to investigate the disappearance of the Black Star cannot be ruled out.

Actually, it can be ruled out because when Sheridan asked how many tac. nukes they had left, the weapons officer said that they had three left. But then it took two to kill of the Black Star, so that leaves the 3rd one up in the air....err vacuum.

Well, then that leads us right back to a contradiction between the series and telemovie versions of the Black Star incident, doesn't it? Likeliest possibility is that Londo, telling this tale thirty-plus years after the fact, has a less-than-perfect recall of the events in question.

Yeah, but you know which particular tidbit of information has the B5ers so hopping mad
about this episode.

Not to sound ignorant, but which is that?[/quote]

I believe Lord Wong is referring to the idea that the mighty Minbari warcruiser was taken down by two 2MT bombs, either directly or indirectly. Tough shit for the cultists, but fact is fact. Discount the telemovie anyway, and we've still got "Atonement" to show us that Minbari hulls can't stand up too well against blast weapons, and values stated in the series that EarthForce energy weapons are not in the exawatt range. Which means that the Minbari ships aren't as tough as they're cracked up to be and Earth weapons aren't as powerful as the cultists wished they were.

Too bad, but that's the way it is.

[Stormbringer]

But the possibility that he laid additional mines and waited for subsequent Minbari vessels to investigate the disappearance of the Black Star cannot be ruled out.

Actually, it can be ruled out because when Sheridan asked how many tac. nukes they had left, the weapons officer said that they had three left. But then it took two to kill of the Black Star, so that leaves the 3rd one up in the air....err vacuum.

Well, then that leads us right back to a contradiction between the series and telemovie versions of the Black Star incident, doesn't it? Likeliest possibility is that Londo, telling this tale thirty-plus years after the fact, has a less-than-perfect recall of the events in question.

It's not a contradiction, merely actions off stage. The important part is the destruction of the Black Star was destroyed by Sheridan. A few anonymous cruisers are less important to the tale than an ace fleet flagship. We know events in close proximaty to the event of ITB not shown have happened. JMS has said the soul hunters did indeed come, it just wasn't shown as it wasn't important to the story of ITB. The same could be said for the cruisers.