AT-ATs and Hoth split

[omegaLancer]

I think that another problem that the rebels face was the sheer number of the force against them.

While the movie never show more than 4 walkers at a time, we donot know the total force landed against the rebel.

Since the Empire was expecting Star fighters like X wings, they could have easily and Stroom trooper armed with Proton torpedoes launchers covering the walkers as they walk thru the shield, once on the other side the Walker would have easily been able to cover each other. seeing them down Snow speeders show that they had the abilities to track and target aircraft. The lose of a single fighter would have sent back the rebel evaluation.

What other weapons where deploy, we caught to brief view of an AT-ST, what about Speeder bikes? How many walkers ?

The fact that several walkers were destroy didnot seem to slow down the Empire assault in the least. Even before the Shield generator was destroy we saw the Base taking damage from the on going battle.

A stronger defense would simply meant commiting more resource to a lost cause. Once Vader Task force had arrive, it would be a given that more imperial force were on the way.

The only planet that withstood the Imperial Mechanize force was BDZ, Hoth would have been the first and last, cause in this case the entire rebel leadership would have been trap on the planet.

[Wild Karrde]

If I may point out one of the very first incidents in the TESB radio drama has a rebel convoy carrying vital supplies to the fledgling base getting wiped out in an Imperial ambush.

And what it carried is definatly open to speculation isn't it

True, although IIRC when Leia's told of the convoy being wiped out she says something along the lines that the evacution was going to be alot tougher without the supplies.

....or something about the troops being in alot more trouble without the convoy, can't remember because I haven't listened to the Radio Drama in sometime...

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, X-wings probably could have taken out the AT-ATs. I'm surprised Rogue Squadron never deployed them instead of speeders. I can't think of a reason the X-wings couldnt work, and they had to go get them after the evacuation anyhow.

Vak's theory is flawed. Unless there was canon proof taht DIRECTLY states its impossible for AT-ATs to have been carried, there is no reason to assume that they didn't carry them prior to TESB if there is evidence from a valid source (even if it is of a lower source) that they did.

This is like saying ISD's don't carry doznes of TIEs because we don't see it... or that the Emperor wasn't a shriveled prune until TESB/ROTJ.

[Vympel]

Actually, X-wings probably could have taken out the AT-ATs. I'm surprised Rogue Squadron never deployed them instead of speeders. I can't think of a reason the X-wings couldnt work, and they had to go get them after the evacuation anyhow.

The Ep2 ICS makes a vague comment about dangerous ground/shield interactions when using aircraft (any aircraft) under a shield- considering that the Empire didn't send TIEs down either and only airspeeders were used in the defense, it's possible that they didn't think it worth the risk. The only time we see them flying at all during the Hoth sequence is when the shield is down, after all.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, X-wings probably could have taken out the AT-ATs. I'm surprised Rogue Squadron never deployed them instead of speeders. I can't think of a reason the X-wings couldnt work, and they had to go get them after the evacuation anyhow.

The Ep2 ICS makes a vague comment about dangerous ground/shield interactions when using aircraft (any aircraft) under a shield- considering that the Empire didn't send TIEs down either and only airspeeders were used in the defense, it's possible that they didn't think it worth the risk. The only time we see them flying at all during the Hoth sequence is when the shield is down, after all.

About using ion engines and repulsors yeah (ion engines I might see in close confines if the shields interfere with the particle stream) but what about repulsors? The snowspeeders fought just fine under the shield.

And lets not forget that the Rebel Transports and fighters could launch without problems. They clearly could move under the shield.

[vakundok]

Sorry for the late answer, but I have too many mundane life things I have to take care of.
Side note:
Since it has been removed it seems that questioning the right of LFL to declare something (partially based on official) as canon without Lucas is not really welcomed here.

Yeah, they also didn't have a planetary shield that can't be walked under either.

Disagree. The full shield would have been broken up followed by an orbital bombardment. They would have even less time to evacuate.

Nope. It was accelerated because the Empire knew they were there. They were already resigned to the fact that they could'nt hold off an Imperial attack. They were never meant to. Do you think they were lazily going about evacuating the base as the ISDs approached because they didn't account for walkers being used?

The evacuation was started because the empire found them. And was accelerated because the ground troops failed. It is stated in the novelization of TESB. (When they discuss covering two transports simoultaneously.)

One thing determines the canonicity of a source: what Lucasfilm says.

It is GL's wisdom as I said. GL can add canon things to it without LFL, but LFL could not add things to it without GL.

Your reasoning is flawed in the extreme. Read the canon rules and regs on this site, Saxton's site, and my site. A lower canon source cannot override the movies. THEREFORE you must canon movie proof from ANH that the ISD WASN'T carrying walkers. If you CAN'T, the canon ICS stands.

The reasoning is not flawed. It is only questionable, and since I wrote that it is nitpicking it cannot be a surprise. A similar question: If Carrie Fisher had an unfilmed birthmark, whether Leia would have it too? Besides, it was only one reasoning of the two.

*What* more powerful weapons that could take out AT-ATs?! Your entire 'argument' is based on the proposition that if the ICS is canon then the rebels must be stupid for not taking out AT-ATs with weapons you don't even know to exist.

The laser cannons of the venerable Headhunters, the side laser cannons of the ANH style corvettes, the laser cannons purchased for the A- and B- wings and the turbolasers purchased for the mon cal ships. (Of course unless you can prove that these weapons cannot be mounted on defensive ground turrets.)

The thing that carries at-ats could just carry them out of the ship sideways, with the feet toward the things engines and landing legs. Problem solved.

My problem is that that Lucasfilm made canon that ISDs carry AT-ATs without any canon evidence for that.

The Rebels know full well that all they can hope to do is slow down the Imperials, and that's why the v-150 is the only heavy artillery piece they have -- anything they can't take with them on the evacuation transports has to be abandoned, and they simply don't have the resources to buy big, expensive anti-walker cannons that are only going to give them a few more minutes anyway.

Yes. However since LFL made the AT-ATs part of the ground troops of the most common warship, they had to know that they could not slow them down with that artillery we saw. So making the AT-ATs quite common actually raise a question (Why the rebells were unprepared for them?) instead of answering anything. (And the novelization highly suggest that they were not only unprepared for the AT-ATs, but even unexpected to face them.
Side note:

While the movie never show more than 4 walkers at a time, we donot know the total force landed against the rebel.

The novelization gives a figure of approximately a dozen AT-ATs attacking the rebell base.

[Vympel]

About using ion engines and repulsors yeah (ion engines I might see in close confines if the shields interfere with the particle stream) but what about repulsors? The snowspeeders fought just fine under the shield.

It's possible that X-Wing repulsors might not have the same degree of combat capability in atmosphere as their main engines- the T-47 is after all a dedicated air speeder, unlike the X-Wing.

And lets not forget that the Rebel Transports and fighters could launch without problems. They clearly could move under the shield.

Well, the sequence of events is "prepare to open shield", then you see the transport and fighter go for broke like a bat out of hell- it's possible that they were waiting under the shield on repulsors for launch, or that they just took off an made orbit in seconds, like we see in AOTC and ANH etc.

The laser cannons of the venerable Headhunters, the side laser cannons of the ANH style corvettes, the laser cannons purchased for the A- and B- wings and the turbolasers purchased for the mon cal ships. (Of course unless you can prove that these weapons cannot be mounted on defensive ground turrets.)

Don't even attempt to try and shift the burden of proof- it's not up to me to prove that these weapons *cannot* be mounted on ground units, it's up to you to prove that they can.

My problem is that that Lucasfilm made canon that ISDs carry AT-ATs without any canon evidence for that.

Unless you can contradict the ICS with solid evidence rather than dubious speculation about ripping dedicated weapons out of spacecraft and firing them from the ground (absurd on the face of it), you do not have an argument.

While the movie never show more than 4 walkers at a time, we donot know the total force landed against the rebel.

Actually it shows five walkers, and we know more were attacking from other sectors- Imperial troops had entered the base before Veers had destroyed the shield- the slowest rate of advance/ most resistance was put up on Rogue Group's part of the battle.

[Sea Skimmer]

It seems the danger is only at the edge of the shields once you're under them you can fly just fine. The X-wings were needed to protect the transports.

AT-TE's are effective at penetrating power energy shields. Walker movement uses simple surface traction, whereas the high-velocity exhausts that drive a speeder or starship are stifled by particle shields. Furthermore flying craft can be damaged by energy discharges leaping from the ground at shield interfaces

[Connor MacLeod]

It seems the danger is only at the edge of the shields once you're under them you can fly just fine. The X-wings were needed to protect the transports.

AT-TE's are effective at penetrating power energy shields. Walker movement uses simple surface traction, whereas the high-velocity exhausts that drive a speeder or starship are stifled by particle shields. Furthermore flying craft can be damaged by energy discharges leaping from the ground at shield interfaces

Yes, some of them. But we clearly saw later on that there were X-wings at a hidden location (Luke's X-wing was clearly not devoted to escort duty, else he would have been escorting a transport when he left, and he would have had trouble getting away to go to Dagobah.)

[Vympel]

Yes, some of them. But we clearly saw later on that there were X-wings at a hidden location (Luke's X-wing was clearly not devoted to escort duty, else he would have been escorting a transport when he left, and he would have had trouble getting away to go to Dagobah.)

We can assume that if Luke's X-Wing was his personal way off Hoth then it's likely that at least all of Rogue Group had their fighter as their transport.

A few explanations I can think of:

1. The X-Wings, though powerful, weren't suited to combat either in Hoth's environment (for any reason- though cold is stupid considering how cold space is) or under a theatre shield. I like this theory best, since it also explains why they bothered to put so much effort into laboriously converting civilian T-47 airspeeders with blaster cannons and removing their heat suppression equipment (the ICS states that the T-47 speeders were running too cold to work) to do the job of air support/patrol on Hoth if the X-Wings could just use their more powerful weapons. It would also explain the lack of TIE and XG-1 Starwing craft, which we know to operate in such capacity.

2. At the time of the battle those X-Wings weren't combat capable and had to be made operational ASAP, probably by their R2 units. Those X-Wings that were combat capable were given the priority mission of transport escort.

3. The Rebels don't know that their X-Wings would be more effective against the AT-ATs.

[Connor MacLeod]

It's possible that X-Wing repulsors might not have the same degree of combat capability in atmosphere as their main engines- the T-47 is after all a dedicated air speeder, unlike the X-Wing.

The X-wing is faster in an atmosphere, IIRC, and thats only going by WEG data (the AOTC ICS suggests fighters can go hypersonic, rather than merely supersonic.)

Besides, X-wings are more heavily armed, have better range, and are shielded (IE tougher than speeders). On top of that, tehy could have deployed twice as many fighters as they did speeders (Each speeder needs two crews, each X-wing needs only one.)

Well, the sequence of events is "prepare to open shield", then you see the transport and fighter go for broke like a bat out of hell- it's possible that they were waiting under the shield on repulsors for launch, or that they just took off an made orbit in seconds, like we see in AOTC and ANH etc.

Only for a brief second, if that (most instances I am aware of suggest it was less than a second opening) otherwise the Imperials would bombard through the shield.

And if they used repulsors under the shield, they would STILL be better than the speeders, even if we assumed a speeder was more mobile than the X-wing.

Although given the quote Skimmer provided, there is nothing to prevent them from using the ion engines at some power level while under the shields (except the radiation level and the "clearance" - but the Hoth Theatre shield covered an area fifty kilometers in diameter.. more than enough for a dozen fighters to manuver in.)

Don't even attempt to try and shift the burden of proof- it's not up to me to prove that these weapons *cannot* be mounted on ground units, it's up to you to prove that they can.

Depends on the armament. An AT-AT's chin guns are clearly as powerful
as fighter guns (KT range). But there is one instance in Wraith Squadron where a laser cannon was stripped down and employed as a weapon. I believe there was also a bounty hunter who used a powerful laser cannon as an armament (It could punch through light cruiser armor reputedly, IIRC.)

[Vympel]

Depends on the armament. An AT-AT's chin guns are clearly as powerful
as fighter guns (KT range).

Yeah, but that's a dedicated ground weapon used by the Imperials, with the reactor of an AT-AT to add some bite to it's bark.

But there is one instance in Wraith Squadron where a laser cannon was stripped down and employed as a weapon. I believe there was also a bounty hunter who used a powerful laser cannon as an armament (It could punch through light cruiser armor reputedly, IIRC.)

If so, then I take it you still don't buy vakundok's view that because such kit bash weapons taken off craft the Rebels may or may not have available is no reason to attempt to argue that ISDs do not carry AT-ATs, yes?

[Connor MacLeod]

A few explanations I can think of:

1. The X-Wings, though powerful, weren't suited to combat either in Hoth's environment (for any reason- though cold is stupid considering how cold space is) or under a theatre shield. I like this theory best, since it also explains why they bothered to put so much effort into laboriously converting civilian T-47 airspeeders with blaster cannons and removing their heat suppression equipment (the ICS states that the T-47 speeders were running too cold to work) to do the job of air support/patrol on Hoth if the X-Wings could just use their more powerful weapons. It would also explain the lack of TIE and XG-1 Starwing craft, which we know to operate in such capacity.

Possible, but unlikely given their shields (which could eaisly keep the cold out, I imagine. Besides which, once powered, an X-wing is going to be putting out a HELLUVA lot of waste energy. Lets also not forget this craft functioned without problem after being buried under a swamp for hours, if not days or weeks. The fact it can operate in the cold of space without problems suggests it might not have problems with the temperature either, and anything else I coudl think of would be solved by shields.

2. At the time of the battle those X-Wings weren't combat capable and had to be made operational ASAP, probably by their R2 units. Those X-Wings that were combat capable were given the priority mission of transport escort.

They may not have had torpedoes I suppose, but I find it odd their lasers wouldn't be working. I do believe they had to fight their way out of a blockade, after all. I mean, wouldn't you think they'd expect to have to fight TIEs on their way out (there are some twenty odd Imperial warships up there.) I don't remember exactly, but I believe at least one of the EU sources (the bounty hunter stories?) suggested their weapons were active, though.

3. The Rebels don't know that their X-Wings would be more effective against the AT-ATs.

Uh, I think the REbels would be able to tell whether or not their speeders or fighters are more powerful

[Connor MacLeod]

If so, then I take it you still don't buy vakundok's view that because such kit bash weapons taken off craft the Rebels may or may not have available is no reason to attempt to argue that ISDs do not carry AT-ATs, yes?

I've already stated the reasons his logic is flawed. Burden of proof is upon him to prove that canon proof exists showing that ISD's do not carry AT-ATs. He cannot assume that lack of evidence in canon disproves an official or second tier canon source - he needs to provide evidence that supersedes that evidence (because canon/official policy *Clearly* tells us that unless contradicted by a higher source, an official/second tier canon source is valid.) His arguments are tantamount to the same logic Darkstar uses in trying to categorically throw out the EU.

Insofar as "kit bashed" weapons are concerned, aside from power draw issues - there are also recoil concerns (they have to brace the weapons properly after all) - heat dissipation and cooling concerns (we're talking about what is probably high GJ/low TJ weaponry.), targeting concerns, and so forth. He greatly simplifies the issue and just *assumes* the REbels would automatically have such equipment available to convert, and that they would have the time to actually do so anyhow (considering they were busy trying to evacuate and all.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, but that's a dedicated ground weapon used by the Imperials, with the reactor of an AT-AT to add some bite to it's bark.

A fighter powerplant stripped out should be able to power the guns. Its a question of whether they had the time and equipment to properly adapt them into weapons (the problems of which I brieflyt outlined above.)

[Vympel]

Possible, but unlikely given their shields (which could eaisly keep the cold out, I imagine. Besides which, once powered, an X-wing is going to be putting out a HELLUVA lot of waste energy. Lets also not forget this craft functioned without problem after being buried under a swamp for hours, if not days or weeks. The fact it can operate in the cold of space without problems suggests it might not have problems with the temperature either, and anything else I coudl think of would be solved by shields.

Good point, didn't think of that. Regarding the ICS quote, to me (I think I was the first one who quoted it in one of the many Hoth debates) doesn't suggest that it's only in passing through the shield that flying craft are in danger.

They may not have had torpedoes I suppose, but I find it odd their lasers wouldn't be working. I do believe they had to fight their way out of a blockade, after all. I mean, wouldn't you think they'd expect to have to fight TIEs on their way out (there are some twenty odd Imperial warships up there.) I don't remember exactly, but I believe at least one of the EU sources (the bounty hunter stories?) suggested their weapons were active, though.

In terms of 'combat capable' I meant a more general term regarding whether pretty much everything works properly- in real air force squadrons maintaining 100% readiness among your aircraft is practically impossible- some aircraft are cannibalized so others might fly on a given day, even in the USAF, and there's all sorts of maintenace hiccups that might mean a certain percentage just aren't ready to fight. The closest you can usually get is 98% or so, I hear.

Alternatively, the escort task X-Wings were given the precious proton torpedoes, which we know from the ICS to be in short supply (each craft in the DS1 attack had but one pair).

Uh, I think the REbels would be able to tell whether or not their speeders or fighters are more powerful

Unfortunately, our job's made much harder by an idiotic EU incident where X-Wings attack an AT-AT, using their cannons, and the blasts slag the armor and 'puncture the fuel tank' (:roll:) and the vehicle gets a huge chunk torn out of it. It wreaks of bullshit, but there it is.

[Sea Skimmer]

Possible, but unlikely given their shields (which could eaisly keep the cold out, I imagine. Besides which, once powered, an X-wing is going to be putting out a HELLUVA lot of waste energy. Lets also not forget this craft functioned without problem after being buried under a swamp for hours, if not days or weeks. The fact it can operate in the cold of space without problems suggests it might not have problems with the temperature either, and anything else I coudl think of would be solved by shields.
[/quote]

The artic is a much worse environment for equipment then the vacuum of space. Though shields should indeed stop icing and that’s what really kills things.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Unfortunately, our job's made much harder by an idiotic EU incident where X-Wings attack an AT-AT, using their cannons, and the blasts slag the armor and 'puncture the fuel tank' (:roll:) and the vehicle gets a huge chunk torn out of it. It wreaks of bullshit, but there it is.

Thanks Stackpole.

However, this is the post-Thrawn warlord-kingdoms. Is it not unreasonable to consider AT-ATs might have gotten stripped of some of their armor for cannabilisation or be in low state of performance or armor? Shitty copy-jobs?

[Vympel]

Thanks Stackpole.

However, this is the post-Thrawn warlord-kingdoms. Is it not unreasonable to consider AT-ATs might have gotten stripped of some of their armor for cannabilisation or be in low state of performance or armor? Shitty copy-jobs?

We can only hope ....

Frankly, before I heard of this crime against the canon, I never once assumed that the X-Wing's cannons were more powerful than those of the snowspeeders- the snowspeeder cannons are much larger in diameter.

[Sea Skimmer]

We can only hope ....

Frankly, before I heard of this crime against the canon, I never once assumed that the X-Wing's cannons were more powerful than those of the snowspeeders- the snowspeeder cannons are much larger in diameter.

The Snow speeders guns are however bolted onto a civilian chassis and a lot of that bulk would probably be the power supply. The X Wing can draw on a military star fighter reactor that can supply power for hyperspace jumps and multi thousand G acceleration

[Vympel]

The Snow speeders guns are however bolted onto a civilian chassis and a lot of that bulk would probably be the power supply. The X Wing can draw on a military star fighter reactor that can supply power for hyperspace jumps and multi thousand G acceleration

True.

[Connor MacLeod]

Unfortunately, our job's made much harder by an idiotic EU incident where X-Wings attack an AT-AT, using their cannons, and the blasts slag the armor and 'puncture the fuel tank' (:roll:) and the vehicle gets a huge chunk torn out of it. It wreaks of bullshit, but there it is.

Thanks Stackpole.

However, this is the post-Thrawn warlord-kingdoms. Is it not unreasonable to consider AT-ATs might have gotten stripped of some of their armor for cannabilisation or be in low state of performance or armor? Shitty copy-jobs?

Do you ever stop bitching and contribute something useful, or can you just not resist an opportunity to show off how cool you are by venting some EU-related bitching?

[Connor MacLeod]

Good point, didn't think of that. Regarding the ICS quote, to me (I think I was the first one who quoted it in one of the many Hoth debates) doesn't suggest that it's only in passing through the shield that flying craft are in danger.

Obviously not, given what we see in TESB. OTherwise it only applies to ion engines (which is questionable.)

In terms of 'combat capable' I meant a more general term regarding whether pretty much everything works properly- in real air force squadrons maintaining 100% readiness among your aircraft is practically impossible- some aircraft are cannibalized so others might fly on a given day, even in the USAF, and there's all sorts of maintenace hiccups that might mean a certain percentage just aren't ready to fight. The closest you can usually get is 98% or so, I hear.

I would imagine they're functional enough to run a blockade, w hich is going to require both mobility AND durability and offensive capability oif some kind. I'd say that if they could run the blockade, they could fight the walkers.

Alternatively, the escort task X-Wings were given the precious proton torpedoes, which we know from the ICS to be in short supply (each craft in the DS1 attack had but one pair).

TRue, but even without proton torpedoes, the laser cannons should be enough to harm them.

Unfortunately, our job's made much harder by an idiotic EU incident where X-Wings attack an AT-AT, using their cannons, and the blasts slag the armor and 'puncture the fuel tank' (:roll:) and the vehicle gets a huge chunk torn out of it. It wreaks of bullshit, but there it is.

Err, why is it idiotic? X-wings are MUCH larger vessels than speeders (more than twice as large - they're nearly as large as an AT-AT itself.) I don't see anything wrong whatsoever with an AT-AT being taken out by a starfighter at all, lasers or no. (of course, Sea Skimmer also pointed out the obvious points here.)

[Connor MacLeod]

The artic is a much worse environment for equipment then the vacuum of space. Though shields should indeed stop icing and that’s what really kills things.

Possibly. But I was pointing out that if the internals were protected (or resistant) to something like swamp water and particulate matter getting in (to say nothing of micrometeorites and other small debris in space) and the whole navigational shield bit, I dont see how snow would be any more problematic.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Do you ever stop bitching and contribute something useful, or can you just not resist an opportunity to show off how cool you are by venting some EU-related bitching?

Fuck off, Connor.

Krennel is warlord who's had to fight through nearly six years of choas after Palpatine's death. It is possible his AT-ATs are not up to specs. But no, you have to go on some bullshit little rant. Vympel agrees its problematic, and why don't YOU provide some explanation for why the Rebels used Speeders rather than X-Wings to makes things fit together rather than pointing the obvious that it appears they should've used X-Wings?

There must be SOME reason they did. I was only offering a possibility.

It would make more sense that the particle shields stifled ion drives until the shield was lowered. It is the only explanation I personally feel has any merit, though it too has problems.