Who CAN the Federation Ground Troops beat?

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-07-10 11:21pm

I realized that the Federation's main problem is that it has no clear definitions of everything. Their entire organization is a mish-mash of military, science, government, civilians, just a big mess. If the Federation had clear branches, like what the U.S. government has always had, it would be more efficient. All of their.....ships....have scientists and military officers working together...sort of stupid. They should separate the military and scientists...it's always been proven that the two can work more efficiently apart from each other. lol

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-11 01:24pm

I actually find it difficult to believe that Federation phasers would be able to outrange longbows. All of the original phaser designs (not the ones from STFC) were designed without a shoulder stock. Have you ever tried to hit anything at more than fifty yards without one? It's extremely difficult, if not impossible. Also, many longbowmen were actually more accurate than the earliest musketeers, the transition was made primarily because it was far more easy to train people in the use of firearms, so the pool of potential draftees was far larger for an army using muskets than it was for armies that clung to bows. I think that this indicates that longbowmen could beat many Federation ground troops for accuracy. On the other hand, Federation soldiers have been able to fight it out with idiotic Klingon "warriors" and the drug-addicted Dominion, so they must have at least marginal advantages over soldiers that are attempting to engage in melee combat.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-11 01:25pm

I actually find it difficult to believe that Federation phasers would be able to outrange longbows. All of the original phaser designs (not the ones from STFC) were designed without a shoulder stock. Have you ever tried to hit anything at more than fifty yards without one? It's extremely difficult, if not impossible. Also, many longbowmen were actually more accurate than the earliest musketeers, the transition was made primarily because it was far more easy to train people in the use of firearms, so the pool of potential draftees was far larger for an army using muskets than it was for armies that clung to bows. I think that this indicates that longbowmen could beat many Federation ground troops for accuracy. On the other hand, Federation soldiers have been able to fight it out with idiotic Klingon "warriors" and the drug-addicted Dominion, so they must have at least marginal advantages over soldiers that are attempting to engage in melee combat.

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-11 05:02pm

As I promised you a couple of days ago I have worked on a scenario based on this subject,which will used mainly to define the terms of the debate.I have done a small research about Napoleonic era armies.I hope to be as much as accurate as possible,but I cannot guarantee to be 100% correct.
Beside I have to do several arbitrary assumptions about formations,weapons,number of troops involved and so on.The scenario is roughly about one thousands of federals versus one thousands of Napoleonic(more specifically french) era troops.Larger numbers would make the scenario more difficult to analyze and since the federals have never deployed large amounts of ground troops,pointless.

Napoleonic side:French army,like it was around 1810.The mixed detachement listed below is leaded by an average commander.Competent
and quite experienced is not however exceptional and will use standard tactics.

Infantry:one battalion of standard line infantry,composed by six companies for a total of 750 troops(more or less 120 troops per company).
Two companies are made of well trained troops, most of them are veterans.
The other four companies are composed of not too well trained and inexperienced recruits.
All the soldiers are armed with standard muskets.No rifles.

Cavalry:One squadron of dragoons for a total of 180 horsemen.
The dragoons are armed with sabres,pistols and short carabines.No armor plates,helmets or lances.They are all well trained.

Artillery:one "foot" battery (the gunners travel by foot and not by horse) composed by eight cannons firing 12ibs balls.It is a "foot" battery, which means,as opposite to an "horse" battery,that cannot be redeployed very quickly on the battefield.The guns are served by one hundreds of veteran gunners.

Federation side.The timeline is in the post star trek Insurrection era.

One thousand of ground troops.They are all security personnel trained for ground combat.A minority of them,around 5-10%,are Dominion war veterans while an other 10% has taken part to minor skirmishes in other situations.
Each trooper has a phaser assault rifle,a type 1 phaser and of course his communicator.
The phaser assault rifle is that seen in first contact.It has a shoulder stock, an optical sight and a trigger guard.The type 1 phaser is a small palmar phaser seen often in "star trek the next generation".For those of you who do not know it is similar to the remote control for your TV set,but smaller.
Few tens of people retain the older type 3 phaser rifle,that with the silly flip up panel and no shoulder stock,mainly for short range combat.
Some of the people not armed with phaser rifles (high ranking officers for example) carry the infamous ergonomics' nightmare type 2 phaser,while the others (medical personnel,people employed on supplies) only the type 1.
20 grenade launchers,such as that seen in Insurrection are available.
A small number of type 1 phaser are available as emergency makeshift hand grenades.
Trycorders,field medical equipments,computers etc are available.

No transporters,starship fire support,shuttles,peregrine fighters.
Choose your preferred captain to command the detachement.

It is a warm comfortable day.The ground is open and flat with few trees and few small rises in the ground.No mud that affects negatively Napoleonic cannons or (technobabble) energy fields that block trycorders or phasers.
The federals are awaiting still the french army detachement which is coming towards them.Both sides know more or less where the enemy is.The Napoleonic troops would not be scared or surprised by phasers(we can say that they have already seen them in a previous smaller action).The federals have knowledge of Napoleonic tactics.Both sides are plenty of supplies such as munitions,water food etc.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-07-11 10:26pm

If I commanded it, I would make the experienced Feds in charge of the grenade launchers and phaser assault rifles with the optical sites and shoulder stocks. They would be a separate unit from the rest of the army. These guys would be in charge of taking out that foot battery. With 20 grenade launchers against only 8 cannons that are still being rolled onto the battlefield, I'd say the Feds could easily take them out. So lets say they go in and destroy that foot battery. Some mighty pissed off French commander ignorantly uses old tactics and dispatches the calvary to quickly eliminate the Fed's own "foot battery" and is greatly surprised at the outcome. (That is how Napolean lost a huge part of his army at Waterloo. When he was absent from the battlefield, an ignorant French officer ordered his men to pursue retreating British calvarymen into a trap and lost every one of them.) The experienced Feds communicate with the rest of the Feds behind and tell them they can begin their advance to mop up. Well, with optical sites and shoulder stocks, and still with their twenty grenade launchers, I'd be shocked if the calvarymen even reached the Feds. As we see in the movie Zulu, superior firepower makes the difference. Rapidly repeating weapons should be equally or more effective than the lines of British infantry seen in Zulu. So then after the calvary is finished off, they begin wreaking havoc on the infantry while the rest of the Feds come in to finish the job.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-11 11:05pm

I'll put Napolean in for the French and Picard cause it has to be Picard in for the Fedeation

First off the fact the Federation is inplace is a huge Advanatage and Contray to Militart Doctrine (IE don't let the Enemy Choose the Battlefield)

Second He never mentioned any Gernade Launchers CommdaoJoe

I would Line my Infantry 300 (Feet meters? I forgot which unit we are using) and Set up my Cannons there widly Spaced and hold my Calavry on my left Flank with my Artilllry on my right

I forget are Napolean Cannons cablable of Skip Shooting?(IE ganing an extra 30-60 yards of Distance by aiming near level to the ground and having the Cannon Ball Bounce it?)

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-07-12 12:27am

Mr Bean wrote: Second He never mentioned any Gernade Launchers CommdaoJoe

He did, actually.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-07-12 03:11am

out of curiosity in the battle for that com station during the Dominion war,I `m sorry I suck at episode names,Why didnt the Jem`hdar just cloak themselves sneak INTO the Federation potitions and then decloak and gut everyone in sight in hand to hand fighting?

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-12 04:04am

The fact that the federals are awaiting still the french troops is mainly a an arbitrary decision.However it is not totally unrealistic.Let us say that one or more starships have beamed down the federals and their supplies on a road and then the starships have been called away,thus eliminating them and their transporters/weapons/shuttles/ from the scenario.The french detachement is dispatched to eliminate the federals.
The road is in the middle of an open,wide,relatively flat field,with only few trees and small rises in the ground.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-12 09:00am

Ahh I misssed that line now I see it nevermind about the Gernade Launchers

Find me what Cannon your talking about, A few of them hads some tricks up there sleeve oh and they all of course had diffrent Ranges
We know the rough Range of the ST weapons and the Range of the Infantry Weapons but the Cannons and Gernade Launchers are up in the Air(Litterly) For weapons ranges

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-12 12:47pm

The napoleonic era cannon I am speaking about is the french 12 ibs cannon.It is the most powerful cannon meant to be used on the battlefield,
larger guns exist but they are used only for sieges and fortresses.Its rate of fire is roughly one rounds every three minutes,since however we are speaking about veteran gunners I suppose that they could do a bit better.It can fire a cannon ball weighing 12ibs or a canister filled with musket's balls, deadly effective against the infantry at close range.
The cannon ball maximum range is reported to be 600 meters.
The cannon ball maximum effective range is reported to be 300 meters.
I am not sure but I think that the 300 meters figure refers to the cannon firing the ball so that it bounces over the ground,which reduces the range but it increases greatly the effectiviness against enemy troops,because with this trick the ball travels at man's height,crushing all the men it finds on its path.A greater range can be obtained by increasing elevation.This means however that the balls will fly well over the lines of enemy soldiers.And since it is a simple iron ball and not an explosive shell it will cause harm only to the people who are enough unlucky to be exactly on the impact point or very close to it.
The canister maximum range is reported to be 200 meters.It seems however that this figure is to be taken as the absolute maximum.This type of munition at close range can literally wipe out enemy troops with its spray of musket's balls.

The federation grenade laucher is a different thing.I do not know if it fires or can fire self propelled shells or it is a sort of railgun which fires dumb grenades(did Worf recoil wheen he fired it?).
In anyway the grenade's effects seems more or less similar to those of a Napoleonic cannon ball.
The range it si difficult to calculate.It would seem that the Son'as it was fired to were a couple of hundreds of meters away.Albeit this does not give us enough information about its maximum range I suspect,considered the nature of the weapon that this should be between 200-300 meters.
The rate of fire is difficult to judge.However it should be at least comparable to that of a modern rifle mounted grenade launcher.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-12 01:11pm

Ahh that changes mattes as Naopelan has at least the Advanatage of Range
Forcing the Red-Shirts to Advance or be eaten up by the Cannon Fire

Realy Depends on how fast and how Orginized the Feds are and how quicky they can advance

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-12 01:44pm

Not really.The federals could attempt a counterbattery fire while still being
out of the range of the deadly canisters.The bouncing balls are less effective than the canisters so probably all that they have to do is to to do one hundred of meters(if not less) under their fire.The more or less 200 men detachement suggested by Commandojoe should not suffer more than very few tens of deads/woundeds to cannons' fire in the process.Once they are in range the battery would be destroyed in a moment.

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-12 02:09pm

Maybe one possibility could be the following:the napoleonic commander leave the federals to advance for ,let us say,50 meters and then fires all the eight cannons in a single salvo.Then unleashes the cavalry upon them.While the survivors of federal grenadiers detachement are dealing with the dragoons he uses the cannons against the main corp of the federation troops(he cannot fire on the federation small detachement with the risk to hit his horsemen).
However I think that if the grenadiers survive to the cavalry and destroy
the battery then the federation should win even if the surviving federation grenadiers are all eliminated after having destroyed the battery.Because at that point it would be infantry versus infantry and the higher rate of fire of the phaser assault rifle would assure them the victory.I think that they should win even if the grenadier elminate only the cavalry or the artillery,if
they have the guts to bear more casualties.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-07-12 03:10pm

Admiral Piett said that the Napoleanic army was still moving onto the battlefield while the Federation forces awaited them. Observing what the French army has (and knowing that old tactics means what I see is basically what I get), that is when I dispatch those veterans with the twenty grenade launchers and nice phaser rifles to take out the foot battery. The French army still moving onto the battlefield means that the infantry is marching, the calvary is riding, and the cannons are being rolled in. The cannons are at their most vulnerable point. The cannons are probably being delivered by horse with the ammunition carriages. The cannons have to be detached from the horse and rolled into position, the carriages have to be opened up, the ammunition must be taken out of the carriages and lined up to be ready to load into the cannons, the guns must be cleaned, the ammunition must be placed into the cannons, and then they must wait for firing orders once the rest of the army and calvary is in place and the commander sends the orders to the cannon crews by probably drums or messengers on horse or whatever. But all of this takes much time. Much more time than what it would take for the unit I described before to run into range of the cannons being prepared, aim their twenty grenade launchers, and then firing at the eight cannons, destroying them all. Hell, even if the cannons are damaged, they still can't be fired. How would a cannon with a broken wheel be effectively lifted up and fired by men?? Or how would a cannon with a melted or broken barrel fire? Or even if the ammunition was destroyed. Then the rest of the battle goes along as I said it probably would. lol

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-12 03:43pm

Like I said have the Fedearation waiting for them goes waaaay aginsts Napoleanic Doctrin and realy would make the fight one sided

Never let the enemy Choose the Battlefield

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-12 03:48pm

Yes you are probably right although,since this is a small detachement sending orders should not take a long time.
Also preparing the cannons for firing should not take a very large amount of time.I have seen such an operation performed by renactment group.
They uncoupled the cannon from its carriage and moved it into firing position in not more time it takes to reload.However they did not have to uncouple it from its horses and they were on a paved way.
I suppose the french troops could deploy the battery in five minutes,although I am not sure.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-12 03:53pm

Five mins of which any Federation Commander he would not give the Enenmy

Consider that one..

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-12 04:01pm

Mr Bean,as I said before the fact that the feds are awaiting still is an arbitrary decision.However it is even an arbitrary decision that they cannot use starship's fire support,transporters and the other toys.Besides even during Napoleonic times one did not have always the luxury of not letting the enemy choosing the battefield.
A further qualification is probably needed in anyway.
The french troops are advancing lined battle formation,since the ground
is flat they should be able to do it without ruining the formation.The only thing they have to do is putting the cannons in battery,thus the disadvantage of being in movement should be minimized.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-07-13 03:28pm

A lined formation would hurt the French army with the phasers' ability to have spread shots. Meaning, they would be bunched up together so that each spread shot could take out groups of men. If they were spread out more, their fire wouldn't be as effective but they wouldn't be grouped up and vulnerable to phaser attack. So basically it's a win-win situation for the Feds. I know even if the French had their cannons and calvary, the Feds would still win because of their repeating weapons and their twenty grenade launchers.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-13 04:29pm

Not to ruffle any feathers, but how about Federation versus the Palestinians?

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-07-13 05:36pm

How???

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-13 05:45pm

Palestinians?
Depends on how they are outfited
If they are carring there usual 12 Man, 10 with Assult Weapons, one Anti-Armor and one AOE(Moltave coktales, Gernades Ect)
Federation would have there rears handed to them

Start off with the Rocket barrage aginst the Gernade Launchers and pick up the parts

Oh and one more thing
Palestinians have SNIPERS

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-13 06:15pm

Mmmm.Let us say
Federals:the same detachement with the same weapons(maybe a larger number of type III phasers) and equipment used for the Napoleonic scenario.

Palestinians:one thousands of partisans, each of them armed with an
AK-47.A dozen of rocket launchers(I will check the model later) are available,I would not say more than a dozen because apparently they did not deploy a lot of them in the last battles so I do not find likely they are plenty of them,but I may be wrong. Molotovs,some grenades and explosives are available.

The scenario takes place in a Palestinian city.The federation troops beam in during the day.And then the hell breaks loose.

I will post a more accurate scenario later but I think that transporters are decisive here.If they can use them then they can still hope to get out alive.Otherwise they are dead meat.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-13 06:21pm

Federation= Dead Dead deaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad Dead

Less than 50 predicted Losses on the Palestinean side For three reaons

A. Fighting on Home Ground
B. Scopes are Nice, Snipers are Better
C. They know this type of fighting
D. Snipers
E. Moltive Cocktales make great panic Weapons
F. Federation Weapons are not so great aginst Concreat
G. The Palestines enjoy a great ROF Advnatage
H. They know this type of Street Fighting, Feds? No Clue there
I. Did I mention Snipers?

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Who CAN the Federation Ground Troops beat?

Longbows

Longbows

Napoleonic army versus federation army.Version 1.0