Jedi stronger after a defeat?

[Defiant]

This has always bugged me. In ESB, Luke pretty much gets his ass kicked by Vader (dad). Now, in ROTJ, we find out that when Luke goes back to Dagobah, its his first time back since he left in ESB. How is it he was able to get stronger without further training from Yoda?

[Lord of the Farce]

This has always bugged me. In ESB, Luke pretty much gets his ass kicked by Vader (dad). Now, in ROTJ, we find out that when Luke goes back to Dagobah, its his first time back since he left in ESB. How is it he was able to get stronger without further training from Yoda?

I think there's something like a six months period between TESB and ROTJ. During that time, Luke had been training himself and (ref. Shadows of the Empire) doing it with the help of some old books from Obi-Wan's Tatooine home. Also, he's more sure of himself and who he is during that time.

[Captain Cyran]

This has always bugged me. In ESB, Luke pretty much gets his ass kicked by Vader (dad). Now, in ROTJ, we find out that when Luke goes back to Dagobah, its his first time back since he left in ESB. How is it he was able to get stronger without further training from Yoda?

I think there's something like a six months period between TESB and ROTJ. During that time, Luke had been training himself and (ref. Shadows of the Empire) doing it with the help of some old books from Obi-Wan's Tatooine home. Also, he's more sure of himself and who he is during that time.

There's a time of one year. He was practicing a lot during that time.

[Master of Ossus]

Luke managed to train himself pretty well, during his time away from Dagobah, but he also learned from his mistakes when he faced Vader the first time.

Incidentally, why did you state that Jedi (plural) were stronger after a defeat? You only have evidence that Luke was.

[Admiral Johnason]

Luke managed to train himself pretty well, during his time away from Dagobah, but he also learned from his mistakes when he faced Vader the first time.

Incidentally, why did you state that Jedi (plural) were stronger after a defeat? You only have evidence that Luke was.

I think he is refering to Vader loosing to Ben and then beating Ben years later.

[Jim Raynor]

When did Vader beat Ben? Don't tell me it's the time when Obi-wan WILLINGLY sacrificed himself to save Luke.

[Dorsk 81]

When did Vader beat Ben? Don't tell me it's the time when Obi-wan WILLINGLY sacrificed himself to save Luke.

According to The New Rebellion Ben was trying to do some out of body thing when Vader cut him down

[Vympel]

When did Vader beat Ben? Don't tell me it's the time when Obi-wan WILLINGLY sacrificed himself to save Luke.

If Obi-Wan could've beaten Vader, he would have. Why was his death necessary to save Luke? Save Luke from what? I know exactly why he did it-lying old codger that he was (just like Yoda)- he did it because Luke was watching.

And I'll reiterate my view that Obi-Wan won't beat Anakin by sheer skill in Episode III. Cruel twist of fate, nothing more. Anything less would make the entire OT stupid (i.e. if Obi Wan can beat Anakin repeatedly then why the hell wait around 20 years for Luke? Hmmm?)

[Lord_Xerxes]

I'm going to have to agree with you wholeheartedly, Vympel. As much as I like Obi-Wan as a character, I've stated many times that he has not displayed much in the ways of fighting prowess, or confidence.

He barely gets by Maul in TPM, and it's by a stroke of luck. I know I'm dreding up old threads here, but Poe did some work with the frame by frame of the end of that fight, and as Obi is comming out of the reactor hole, he is slicing at Maul's head. Maul dodges it, and there was something Poe stated about the position of Maul's saber in the opposite hand that had to do with why Obi was able to cut him down. If Maul hadn't played with him, Obi would be dead. It was through deus ex machina that Obi was able to triumph. And only after seeming to give in to his anger. Furthermore, I'll reiterate my opinion that the death of Qui is his fault. He is casually jogging towards and through the sheilds instead of going to a Force run where he can rejoin the fight.

His fight with Jango in AOTC was just as bad, if not worse. He seems utterly clumsy, and completley reliant upon his lightsaber for everything. Trying to fight someone at melee who's wearing armor isnt' a good idea. A head butt to a helmetted, armored mercenary? What the hell is the point. It would hurt him more than it would Jango. He could have used one of any variety of Force moves.

His fight with Dooku was even worse still. He seems utterly reliant on having a second person fight at his side, and has no confidence in his own abilities. Furthermore, Dooku swats him aside like a fly, with little effort. Granted, Dooku might be far better trained, but I would think that Obi-Wan would have been able to put up a much better fight.

Against Anakin, who seems to be at his prime when he's giving in to his anger (exception being when he enters the fight with Dooku and gets pwned by Force Lightning), I don't except Obi-Wan to be able to hold his own in the least. With no one to rely on, it'll once again come down to deus ex machina.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

If Obi-Wan could've beaten Vader, he would have. Why was his death necessary to save Luke? Save Luke from what? I know exactly why he did it-lying old codger that he was (just like Yoda)- he did it because Luke was watching.

If Obi-Wan had defeated Vader, he would've been cut down by the group of stormies watching. Or even IF old Ben is good enough to handle that, by the time he's finished he'd be overwhelmed by even more troops.

Death was inevitable for him. He did it not only because Luke was watching, but because then he can become one with the Force and guide Luke (as he did in the Battle of Yavin, at Hoth to go see Yoda, ect.).

[Stravo]

I disagree with some of the Obi Wan bashing going on here. Granted I don't think that he will outright defeat Anakin, like Vympel I think he'll cut loose a scafollding or somrhing that Anakin is on and that will end teh fight but I don't think Anakin will own Obi Wan either.

In TPM *shudder* Obi takes on Maul and handles himself pretty well for being:
A) A padawan learner
B) Who has NEVER enaged in a lightsaber duel (TPM Novelization mentions that Jedi had not dueled in anger in centuries until battle of Naboo)
C) Against a full fledged Sith Lord.

In AOTC Dooku is on Yoda level for Christ's sake and may I point out that it is fairly obvious that Sith lords on average spank a Jedi in a one on one duel.

Maul vs. Qui Gon (Tatooine and Naboo)
Maul vs. Obi Wan (save for last minute loss of 100 IQ points)
Dooku vs. Obi Wan
Dooku v. Anakin (Is anyone else pissed that GL cut scenes from the anakin duel and never put them on the DVD??)
Dooku vs. Yoda (a draw - sort of)
Vader vs. Obi Wan
Vader vs. Luke (ESB)
Luke vs. Vader (ROTJ)

On the whole, the dark side makes the Jedi dueler more powerful and on average beats a light side Jedi. Hell in the battle of Naboo, Maul is holding his own agianst two Jedi, how would Obi or any other Jedi handle two Mauls??

So comparing Obi's perfomance's in the prequels is a little unfair as in both instances he is clearly outmatched. What matters is that Yoda holds him in high esteem (a better indication of his worth as a Jedi than whether he can beat a foe FAR ABOVE him) and need I mention he is one of the few Jedi to survive the arena at Geonosis. (Not sure if Anakin is the only padawan to do so)

[Illuminatus Primus]

Jedi have dueled recently--not in anger or the true contest against a Sith; the old dueling arts were languished.

However, there were traitors. The twenty Jedi Masters who made up the "Lost Twenty" in Jedi history, and many more knights and padawans who sucuumbed.

Qui-Gon's first apprentice, Xanatos, became a Dark Jedi, for example.

[Lord_Xerxes]

I disagree with some of the Obi Wan bashing going on here. Granted I don't think that he will outright defeat Anakin, like Vympel I think he'll cut loose a scafollding or somrhing that Anakin is on and that will end teh fight

Exactly, deus ex machina. That's what I'm saying. I'm thinking maybe there is the capacity of them having a decent fight, that could be drawn out, but I don't think Obi-Wan stands a chance to defeat Anakin on a one-on-one.

In TPM *shudder* Obi takes on Maul and handles himself pretty well for being:
A) A padawan learner
B) Who has NEVER enaged in a lightsaber duel (TPM Novelization mentions that Jedi had not dueled in anger in centuries until battle of Naboo)

Like is already mentioned, there is plenty of pratice. And I disagree with the above, based on the Padawn series. I know they fall under lower canon in the order, but Xanatos surely had his engagements with Obi.

C) Against a full fledged Sith Lord.

This I agree with, as well the padawan statement. And it shows through in the entirety of TPM and specifically with the Maul fights. Obi-Wan is very reckless and wasteful, and I've brought that point up before. Surely, this is also do to his level of training, and he should be more refined as he grows in rank and skill...but in his fight with Jango, a non-force sensitive person, in a non-lightsaber-to-lightsaber duel, Obi-Wan does horribly. He does not show the sort of ingenuity or reflexes that Anakin shows as someone who is of a lesser-caliber rank-wise. Remember, it is Anakin's quick thinking and lightning reflexes that saves Obi-Wan from Dooku. I wish when Obi was a Padawan he'd shown the same brand of skill when his own Master's life was on the line.

In AOTC Dooku is on Yoda level for Christ's sake and may I point out that it is fairly obvious that Sith lords on average spank a Jedi in a one on one duel.

I'm going to agree with you wholeheartedly here. I've stated and argued before, as well as in this forum on threads long past that I think Dooku seems to effortlessly handle Yoda. But my point was that Obi-Wan jobbed to Dooku so quickly. He should have faired much better, especially after the lessons he should have learned from facing and narrowly avoiding death from Maul. His fairings were poor at best. And I'm not trying to undermine Dooku's skill at all, I didn't expect Obi to be able to go toe to toe with him and come out on top. I expect Obi-Wan to have confidence in his own abilities, that he doesn't seem to show at all, and to be able to last a little longer. His Padawan fairs fair better, in comparision.

So comparing Obi's perfomance's in the prequels is a little unfair as in both instances he is clearly outmatched. What matters is that Yoda holds him in high esteem (a better indication of his worth as a Jedi than whether he can beat a foe FAR ABOVE him) and need I mention he is one of the few Jedi to survive the arena at Geonosis. (Not sure if Anakin is the only padawan to do so)

Agreed, he is far outmatched. But I don't feel it's unfair to say that someone of Obi-Wans level of training AND held in such high regard by Yoda should have faired far better against those opponents.