It's raining asteroids! TESB topic.

[AdmiralKanos]

Not that there are not a mechanism to do this in a vacuum, for there is. It requires firing a bolt of plasma ahead of the Laser ( actually using the laser to accelerate the Plasma to near light speed) and have the lasers interact with the Plasma to create a self focusing effect. The laser bolt will pass thru the Plasma cloud be refocus and eventually will come out of focus again on it own, but the effect as greatly increase the range of the laser beam.

Refocusing the laser will not make the plasma cloud confine itself. In theory, knocking ions forward with the laser would create current flow, which would in turn create a magnetic pinch. But that would only affect a static plasma channel, and would not allow forward confined projection of a plasma volume if I understand the theory correctly.

A second method is being research, is based on the fact that photons do interact with each other weakly. At high energy it may be possible to have the laser interact with itself dupicating in a vacuum what is can be done in a medium. At the energy that SW weapons operate such interact would be very likely.

Except that photon interactions are highly unlikely even in theory, so that even if they do interact in some cases as predicted by QED, the vast majority won't, so the bulk of the beam won't behave that way. No one is concerned with the behaviour of an infinitesimally small fraction of the photons involved in this situation.

Conner, I would love mike to look over the links and see what he thinks Also for those that have not seen it this is how a light bullet ( a soliton like solution for electron magnetic radiation) can be made to decay and explode
check out the link to the light bullet home page on Halo decay

http://www.sfu.ca/~renns/images/halo2.html

The fact that noise can be introduce into the oscillation of the ligth bullet that will cause to explode or break apart into a shower of smaller bullets. This could be set at a specific or random interval.

Except that this only happens when the light interacts with something, namely a physical medium in the case of "light bullets".

In essence, you're talking about a volume of plasma launched forward from the cannons and then struck with the laser, in which case we're back to square one: we have to explain what holds this volume of plasma together and allows it to defy gravity.

The fact is that we know from various EU reference that Turbo laser have a short range mode. This only make sense if there is a mechanism to control the distant the TL travel.

The EU references concerning TL behaviour are of spotty reliability, to say the least.

There is no reason to add physical projectile to the entire agruement when there is already a method that matchs we see in the movies and what is written in the EU novels. Turbo laser and laser can explode the SW universe laser and energy beam technology are far ahead of anything we have today.

Lasers cannot spontaneously "explode". They can only interact with a target.

[omegaLancer]

First the idea behind the plasma is not for the laser to confine the plasma, the plasma is being used as the medium for the Laser to focus itself via Kerr like effects....The laser is use to accelerate the Ions to Relativitic velocity. Confinement of the plasma is not needed, why would it be it the wave packet of light energy that we are using as weapon, the plasma is provide the mechanism for self focusing. This greatly increases the range of the laser.


Second, yes the reaction is unlikely, if you read the link post then you will see that to amplified the effect a Resonance cavity is being used. At low energy the reaction are low, but at high energy the effect would be greater. Lasers capable of during damage in the range of atomic weapons, would be classified as HIGH energy. The reactions are not only predicted by QED but also be Maxwell equations on electromagnetism.

To overcome the low probability of photon-photon scattering, a group of theorists at two Swedish universities has proposed trapping lots of photons inside a so-called resonant cavity. This cavity concentrates photons of particular energies (modes), much like an organ pipe concentrates acoustic energy of certain frequencies. By pumping a lot of photons into just the right modes, photons of two different energies could smash into each other, exchange some of their energy, and then fly off with two new energies that were not among the original modes. The detection of these new photon energies would indicate the existence of photon-photon scattering, according to team member Mattias Marklund of the Chalmers University of Technology in Göteborg.

Now if this is true than the same behave we see with Kerr focusing and light bullets would be observed in the vacuum

"It's a nice proposal," says Mordechai Segev of Princeton University, who has proposed searching for photon-photon scattering with high power lasers. He says that such scattering--if it could be observed--would be the first example of so-called nonlinear optics in vacuum, a class of optical effects that don't normally occur without high power lasers and a material medium. Another example of such effects is self-focusing, where the lig ht confines itself into a beam that doesn't diverge. If this can be done in a vacuum instead of matter, says Segev, it might lend itself to some far-out applications. Assuming future lasers can be cranked up to the level where self-focusing occurs in a vacuum, then the beam could propagate over huge distances--maybe even from our galaxy to the one next door--without dissipating. Closer to home, the nonlinear effects might be used to create new laser frequencies at very high power, something laser physicists would be delighted to do.

Either case both the methods describe above could account for the production of light bullet like reaction by turbo lasers.

We are talking about SW technology, a technology that uses exotic gas to create the effects of Turbolaser ( same gas is used for Hyperdrive) so they could be methods to create soliton like solution in SW weapon that we may not have found, remember they use magnetic fields to "SPIN THE BOLT" to greatly increase the range, this effect would like the Photon photon interaction be unlikely so this hint at two thing. One that if plasma is used this magnetic effect is effecting the plasma to control the focusing effect of the laser passing thru it or that the second method of photon photon interaction is so intense that it can be effected by the magnetic field generated by the turbo laser cannon.

[AdmiralKanos]

First the idea behind the plasma is not for the laser to confine the plasma, the plasma is being used as the medium for the Laser to focus itself via Kerr like effects....The laser is use to accelerate the Ions to Relativitic velocity. Confinement of the plasma is not needed, why would it be it the wave packet of light energy that we are using as weapon, the plasma is provide the mechanism for self focusing. This greatly increases the range of the laser.

If that's the case, then it only matters at such ranges where a regular laser is likely to have lost much of its cohesion, and at such great range, focus is the least of your worries.

Now if this is true than the same behave we see with Kerr focusing and light bullets would be observed in the vacuum

Why? The researchers plan to overcome the low probabilities by simply using lots of high-energy photons in a small space, essentially rolling the dice a lot of times quickly. It doesn't change the probability, or the fact that most photons would not undergo this reaction.

Either case both the methods describe above could account for the production of light bullet like reaction by turbo lasers.

I don't see how, since most of the photons won't react in that manner, even in theory. And high-energy photons still don't do that in any quantity, never mind a majority which you need for this effect to be meaningful.

We are talking about SW technology, a technology that uses exotic gas to create the effects of Turbolaser ( same gas is used for Hyperdrive) so they could be methods to create soliton like solution in SW weapon that we may not have found,

You can't appeal to their advancement to conclude that anything is possible; by that token, all theories are equally meaningful.

remember they use magnetic fields to "SPIN THE BOLT" to greatly increase the range, this effect would like the Photon photon interaction be unlikely so this hint at two thing. One that if plasma is used this magnetic effect is effecting the plasma to control the focusing effect of the laser passing thru it or that the second method of photon photon interaction is so intense that it can be effected by the magnetic field generated by the turbo laser cannon.

Light bullets could explain the visible bolt (photonic interference creating scattering effects), but not a flakburst in which the bulk of the energy of the beam undergoes this reaction.

[Mad]

Light bullets could explain the visible bolt (photonic interference creating scattering effects), but not a flakburst in which the bulk of the energy of the beam undergoes this reaction.

Well, from Conservation of Energy, we know that the bulk of the beam is not undergoing any reaction, as not enough energy is being released. So if these light bullets can explain a small fraction of the beam "exploding," then it could be a valid theory as that's what we see. (I don't know enough about light bullets to argue any more than that, but the CoE thing should be pointed out.)

[omegaLancer]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now if this is true than the same behave we see with Kerr focusing and light bullets would be observed in the vacuum
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why? The researchers plan to overcome the low probabilities by simply using lots of high-energy photons in a small space, essentially rolling the dice a lot of times quickly. It doesn't change the probability, or the fact that most photons would not undergo this reaction

Hum low possiblities donot mean zero possiblities. The Fact that the Researcher are amplifieing the effect via the Resonance cavity is prove that an observable effect can be obtain.

Let look at another low possibility event, the reaction of neutrino with normal matter. How many time has it been quoted that a neutrino can past thru 20 light years of lead, the neutrino only reaction with matter is thru the weak force making this particle a ghost.

Yet in the heart of a dying sun, who on the verge of going supernova the conditions exist where the Flux density of Neutrinos interacting with the iron ash causes a pressure wave so powerful that the escaping neutrino rip the star apart and causes the one of the most energic events known.

Even iin nature the Photon photon reaction is observable, In enegy emission of Blazar Astrophysicists observe the high energy gamma rays not only interacting with it self but with infra photons

Blazar observations with the ARGO-YBJ detector



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The detection of four blazars at TeV energies (Mrk421, Mrk501, 1ES 2344+514, PKS 2155-304) proves that high energy gamma-rays are indeed emitted from blazars. The favourite emission mechanisms suggested so far to explain the Spectral Energy Distribution (SED) of blazars, characterized by two broad peaks at IR-optical-UV and MeV-GeV energies respectively, are synchrotron radiation from the electrons of the relativistic jet for the low frequency peak and inverse Compton for the high frequency peak. Analysis of the SED of gamma-ray blazars observed so far has shown that BL Lac objects present higher energy peaks with respect to FSRQ. In particular, following the classification made in Giommi & Padovani (1994) of radio selected BL Lac (RBL) and X-ray selected BL Lac (XBL), these latter seem to be the blazars with the SED shifted to the highest energies: in effect the four objects observed at TeV energies are all classified as XBL.
In searching for the best candidate high energy gamma-ray blazars for ARGO-YBJ observations, we will then look mainly at the XBL type.


Interaction with low energy photons

The other limitation to gamma-ray observations of blazars in the Very High Energy (VHE) range is the possible interaction of these photons with low energy photons of intergalactic origin. The cross section of this interaction is maximized in a way that TeV photons interact mainly with IR photons, while gamma-rays of some tens of GeV energies interact mainly with UV photons. Therefore, the intergalactic radiation fields which interact with photons detectable by ARGO-YBJ are the Intergalactic Infrared Radiation Field (IIRF), produced by dust reradiation of star formation light of all galaxies during their evolution, and the field made of extragalactic starlight photons from the IR through the UV range, which we will call ``IR-to-UV background''.

The effect of the photon-photon interaction modifies the observed VHE spectra of blazars, which intrinsically follow a power law. The photon-photon absorption produces an exponential cutoff exp(-tau(E)), where tau(E) is the optical depth.

Fact are that condition can alter the rate of such reaction in a classical QED vaccum, intense magnetic fields can and will aid in such interaction

Vacuum polarization, photon-photon scattering, and pair production
The quantum vacuum state will respond in a subtle way to less dramatic perturbations. The study of this subtle response requires high precision experiments. The well known example is the vacuum polarization (VP) effect that on distance scale of the electron-Compton-wavelength alters the 1/r-nature of Coulomb's law by a 0.1%-relative-strength correction. The VP effect is based in the response of the vacuum to highly inhomogeneous field-strength, and is in general interpreted as a dielectric particle-hole (electron-positron) photon polarizibility. Because of its range, the VP-potential can only be detected in the vicinity of the atomic nucleus. VP-effect does not violate the superposition of electromagnetic fields, thus there is no possibility here for an effective new interaction, an `anomaly' such as photon-photon scattering, or photon-electromagnetic field interaction.
Nonlinear QED vacuum effects were in depth explored in the limit that gradients of the electromagnetic fields are insignificant on the scale of the electron Compton wave length. The observation of this so called Euler-Heisenberg (EH) effective action has provided a major challenge to the experimental community seeking to verify this interesting prediction of quantum-electrodynamics (QED). Considerable effort is being mounted to obtain a direct measurement of the birefringence effect arising from anisotropic index of refraction of the vacuum exposed to strong external magnetic field, and traversed by a laser beam. As the smallness of pure QED effects testifies, the symmetry principle of gauge invariance related to charge conservation, and the process of charge renormalization combine to `protect' the electromagnetic interactions in strength and shape, these effects are not present in the nonlinear effective interaction, an anomaly, which allows photon-photon scattering.

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 4:44 am Post subject: Re: Reply to admiral

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by omegaLancer:
First the idea behind the plasma is not for the laser to confine the plasma, the plasma is being used as the medium for the Laser to focus itself via Kerr like effects....The laser is use to accelerate the Ions to Relativitic velocity. Confinement of the plasma is not needed, why would it be it the wave packet of light energy that we are using as weapon, the plasma is provide the mechanism for self focusing. This greatly increases the range of the laser.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If that's the case, then it only matters at such ranges where a regular laser is likely to have lost much of its cohesion, and at such great range, focus is the least of your worries.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now if this is true than the same behave we see with Kerr focusing and light bullets would be observed in the vacuum
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why? The researchers plan to overcome the low probabilities by simply using lots of high-energy photons in a small space, essentially rolling the dice a lot of times quickly. It doesn't change the probability, or the fact that most photons would not undergo this reaction.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Either case both the methods describe above could account for the production of light bullet like reaction by turbo lasers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I don't see how, since most of the photons won't react in that manner, even in theory. And high-energy photons still don't do that in any quantity, never mind a majority which you need for this effect to be meaningful.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are talking about SW technology, a technology that uses exotic gas to create the effects of Turbolaser ( same gas is used for Hyperdrive) so they could be methods to create soliton like solution in SW weapon that we may not have found,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You can't appeal to their advancement to conclude that anything is possible; by that token, all theories are equally meaningful.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[/quote]

The fact is that apealing to what SW technology can do has to take into account that certain term do pop up in the EU Novels, and Solitons do...

The fact that solitons are found in"Shields of lies" . vessels of a warlord personal fleet track new republic vessels pursuing an alien starship by the soliton emission of their hyperdrive unit.

As it stand we have to see what is possible today and take on the logical progression of that technology. Modern lasers are using soliton solution in optical fiber to save enrgy and increase bandwidth, French researchers using Kerr and plasma to extend the range of laser in the atomsphere and to overcome conditions of weather that greatly hamper a laser usefulness.
Swedish and Italian scientists are working with Resonance cavities to duplicate the effect of Kerr interaction in a complete vacuum.

Even nature show us that such photon photon interaction are possible and what can be done by nature can surely be duplicated by Science. So I must conclude that Flak interaction, like other SW laser effects are not out do to the superior Galactic technology which can not only form light bullets and soliton like solutions for electromagnetic energy but can can do it in a vacuum with the need of a medium like air.

[omegaLancer]

sorry for the double post the server was doing some weird things at the time, I surprise that it even fo thru...

All cleared up

[SPOOFE]

Yeah, the message board is acting pretty funky lately. Any word on the heads-up?

Oh I don't know... it's a bit more complicated than that--the asteroid was travelling mostly away from the camera, so despite hitting the bridge tower from the side, its torque about its centre of gravity is a lot lower than this would suggest.

You really shouldn't be thinking of "center of mass" so much as "fulcrum". If the armor and structure really were weak enough to be sheared off enough so that the entire tower disappears, it would pretty much just "spin" (well, just "bend", really) around the neck of the tower, which would have thrown the far edge of the tower all the way around (and up, mind you), which would have made it MORE visible. Clearly, this did not happen.

The only way for what you described to happen would be if the port side of the tower head were extremely dense, while the starboard side were empty. I highly doubt this to be the case.

Also the bridge tower is attached to the rest of the ship, and we don't know if the structure would cancel out displacement and rotation in equal amounts.

That wouldn't happen if the tower were "sheared off". There would be no reason for the tower to break off AFTER its kinetic energy were imparted and dispersed throughout the entire ship.

[omegaLancer]

Actually there just one thing to say, Apparently The Republic and later the Empire did master Photon - photon scattering. The composite super laser and the lasers used by the Clone trooper gunships basically combine several seperate energy beams into a single composite, proof that photon / photon interaction have been mastered by SW laser technology.

If that the case then Creation of self focusing packet of EM energy is also possible, and it no small step to create an packet that can decay and explode like a light bullet.

[Darth Wong]

Hum low possiblities donot mean zero possiblities. The Fact that the Researcher are amplifieing the effect via the Resonance cavity is prove that an observable effect can be obtain.

That's not the point I'm trying to make. It's not a matter of a low probability that the whole beam reacts; it's a matter of low probabilities of individual photons reacting. Most of the beam will not do this, so it really doesn't matter if some of the photons successfully interact with others.

Let look at another low possibility event, the reaction of neutrino with normal matter. How many time has it been quoted that a neutrino can past thru 20 light years of lead, the neutrino only reaction with matter is thru the weak force making this particle a ghost.

Yet in the heart of a dying sun, who on the verge of going supernova the conditions exist where the Flux density of Neutrinos interacting with the iron ash causes a pressure wave so powerful that the escaping neutrino rip the star apart and causes the one of the most energic events known.

And yet most of the neutrinos still pass harmlessly out of the blast. You're missing the point. Obviously, a huge number of interactions will make even a low-probability reaction take place, but that doesn't mean the probability goes up.

The fact is that apealing to what SW technology can do has to take into account that certain term do pop up in the EU Novels, and Solitons do...

The fact that solitons are found in"Shields of lies" . vessels of a warlord personal fleet track new republic vessels pursuing an alien starship by the soliton emission of their hyperdrive unit.

And what does a hyperdrive emission have to do with turbolasers?

As it stand we have to see what is possible today and take on the logical progression of that technology. Modern lasers are using soliton solution in optical fiber to save enrgy and increase bandwidth, French researchers using Kerr and plasma to extend the range of laser in the atomsphere and to overcome conditions of weather that greatly hamper a laser usefulness. Swedish and Italian scientists are working with Resonance cavities to duplicate the effect of Kerr interaction in a complete vacuum.

Soliton waves in fibre optics require a waveguide. Passing a laser through a plasma channel increases its focus and range but has nothing to do with a discussion of flakbursts. The resonance cavities you speak of are only intended to produce some kind of photon-photon reaction through sheer vast quantity of interactions; the notion of a coherent energy beam of photons all moving in the same direction abruptly undergoing such a reaction is totally unrelated.

Even nature show us that such photon photon interaction are possible and what can be done by nature can surely be duplicated by Science. So I must conclude that Flak interaction, like other SW laser effects are not out do to the superior Galactic technology which can not only form light bullets and soliton like solutions for electromagnetic energy but can can do it in a vacuum with the need of a medium like air.

Leap in logic. You are still not addressing the fact that a flakburst releases its energy, otherwise the bolt would continue. This is particularly important for flakbursts behind the MF when it's being chased by the ISD; if the beam continues onward with most of its energy as some postulate, why don't we see some evidence of this?

[Darth Wong]

Light bullets could explain the visible bolt (photonic interference creating scattering effects), but not a flakburst in which the bulk of the energy of the beam undergoes this reaction.

Well, from Conservation of Energy, we know that the bulk of the beam is not undergoing any reaction, as not enough energy is being released.

And how do you know that? You can see how much energy is being released by the flakburst? What if most of it is X-rays?

[Darth Wong]

Actually there just one thing to say, Apparently The Republic and later the Empire did master Photon - photon scattering. The composite super laser and the lasers used by the Clone trooper gunships basically combine several seperate energy beams into a single composite, proof that photon / photon interaction have been mastered by SW laser technology.

If that the case then Creation of self focusing packet of EM energy is also possible, and it no small step to create an packet that can decay and explode like a light bullet.

Circular logic: you are assuming that this was near-100% probability photon-photon interaction (something which is not even theoretically possible) and then using it as evidence in support of your theory that turbolasers do in fact produce on such interactions.

[omegaLancer]

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: final say on TL and super laser.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by omegaLancer:
Actually there just one thing to say, Apparently The Republic and later the Empire did master Photon - photon scattering. The composite super laser and the lasers used by the Clone trooper gunships basically combine several seperate energy beams into a single composite, proof that photon / photon interaction have been mastered by SW laser technology.

If that the case then Creation of self focusing packet of EM energy is also possible, and it no small step to create an packet that can decay and explode like a light bullet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Circular logic: you are assuming that this was near-100% probability photon-photon interaction (something which is not even theoretically possible) and then using it as evidence in support of your theory that turbolasers do in fact produce on such interactions.

wouldn't it be calling on visual proof, since we all seen the operation of the Deathstar superlaser and the Republic clone trooper Heavy lasers.

Since the beams did combine and didnot pass thru one other, it is an indication that Some kind of Photon photon scattering is taking place. Other than a rear shield plate or focus plate of some type, no other shielding is seen. So even if a large potion of each laser is in an unseen frequency the lack of damage to the surrounding indicate the interaction is bording on a very high percentage.

How this is done is not important ( We can come up with all kind of theory but that is not necessary with what we see on the screen). The fact that under normal condition such reaction sis not common, there are way that make it more common ( Having it take place in present of magnetic field is one instant, using Hi freq photon and large electrical charges is another) it apparent from what is seen that it is occuring.

Knowing that they can do it. and can actually alter the Way photon interact with each other also tell us that the technology is in place to alter the wavepacket. We do it now with wave guide, optic fiber and other medium.
They should be able to do the same with whatever means that they are using to cause the interaction that is being seen.

[Mad]

And how do you know that? You can see how much energy is being released by the flakburst? What if most of it is X-rays?

I take it you're thinking of the flaking seen in space? There's also atmospheric flak. Take the flak in ESB from the TIEs in Bespin's atmosphere, for example. TIEs should be firing beams containing a kiloton or two of energy, but that amount of energy doesn't appear to be released in the explosions.

[Darth Wong]

wouldn't it be calling on visual proof, since we all seen the operation of the Deathstar superlaser and the Republic clone trooper Heavy lasers.

Since the beams did combine and didnot pass thru one other, it is an indication that Some kind of Photon photon scattering is taking place.

Why? In both cases, the interaction takes place at a fixed distance from a projection device. There is no reason to assume that the beams do this naturally, as opposed to some sort of control from the base unit. In the case of the DS superlaser, all of the beams actually STOP at the point of intersection and do NOT release their energy, remember?

How this is done is not important ( We can come up with all kind of theory but that is not necessary with what we see on the screen).

On the contrary, "how this is done" is precisely what we are debating. You feel that the beam can be made to this autonomically, while I feel that any such control requires some sort of physical control device: either a projectile which travels inside the bolt, an interaction with defensive forcefields, or (in the case of the DS and SPHA-T) control from some sort of projection technology.

We do it now with wave guide, optic fiber and other medium.
They should be able to do the same with whatever means that they are using to cause the interaction that is being seen.

Since they have shields which can be projected thousands of kilometres into space, that is a given. But it does not follow that the bolt can somehow do this to itself at a preset distance.

[Darth Wong]

And how do you know that? You can see how much energy is being released by the flakburst? What if most of it is X-rays?

I take it you're thinking of the flaking seen in space? There's also atmospheric flak. Take the flak in ESB from the TIEs in Bespin's atmosphere, for example. TIEs should be firing beams containing a kiloton or two of energy, but that amount of energy doesn't appear to be released in the explosions.

Atmospheric interactions could limit the power that they're willing to put to the weapons, for their own safety.

[Mad]

Atmospheric interactions could limit the power that they're willing to put to the weapons, for their own safety.

Perhaps, but the Falcon has strong shielding for its size, and has survived hits from ISD weaponry. If the TIEs reduced power to their weapons so they could allow their weapons to flakburst safely, how would they be able to overcome the Falcon's shields?

And it's not like SW shields can be worn down in the same manner as ST shields... bumping firepower down to below kT level should have great trouble in overloading the Falcon's shields.

It makes more sense to me that whatever reaction governs the flakbursting is not effecient. (It's simplier than saying the TIEs lowered firepower to what should be ineffective against the Falcon.) It'd seem only part of the beam flaks, while the rest of the beam happily continues on past the target...

[Darth Wong]

Atmospheric interactions could limit the power that they're willing to put to the weapons, for their own safety.

Perhaps, but the Falcon has strong shielding for its size, and has survived hits from ISD weaponry. If the TIEs reduced power to their weapons so they could allow their weapons to flakburst safely, how would they be able to overcome the Falcon's shields?

Possibly, since the atmospheric interactions greatly increase the physical forces applied to the Falcon and its defensive systems. Since those shields are primarily designed for space combat, the shockwave effect of atmospheric flak bursts can be similar to the buffeting effect of relatively huge amounts of energy in space. Mind you, the load on the ray-shielding would be decreased, but if you can bash the ship around physically, you can do serious damage even if you can't overwhelm the ray shields.

And it's not like SW shields can be worn down in the same manner as ST shields... bumping firepower down to below kT level should have great trouble in overloading the Falcon's shields.

Take a lawnmower engine and start it up. Now, start hitting it with a large sledgehammer. Sooner or later, something will break.

It makes more sense to me that whatever reaction governs the flakbursting is not effecient. (It's simplier than saying the TIEs lowered firepower to what should be ineffective against the Falcon.)

Then why does it have the same effect in space?

It'd seem only part of the beam flaks, while the rest of the beam happily continues on past the target...

Fine, then explain why the flakburst is just as effective in space as it is in atmosphere (without resorting to "the writers are ignorant").

[Mad]

Possibly, since the atmospheric interactions greatly increase the physical forces applied to the Falcon and its defensive systems. Since those shields are primarily designed for space combat, the shockwave effect of atmospheric flak bursts can be similar to the buffeting effect of relatively huge amounts of energy in space. Mind you, the load on the ray-shielding would be decreased, but if you can bash the ship around physically, you can do serious damage even if you can't overwhelm the ray shields.

Take a lawnmower engine and start it up. Now, start hitting it with a large sledgehammer. Sooner or later, something will break.

Sensible enough. Knocking the shield equipment around to beat it up instead of overheating it.

However, I don't recall getting the impression that the buffeting was significant, in which case it'd be more like tapping on the lawnmower with a pencil. It'd run out of gas before anything broke. I could be remembering the severity of it as shown in the movie wrongly, however. (The Falcon certainly wasn't being slapped around like it was from direct hits from the Avenger.)

It should also be noted that the Falcon's shields survived exiting hyperspace in an asteroid field. It'd seem that something that can survive impacts like that would require a lot of tapping to break down.

Then why does it have the same effect in space?

Fine, then explain why the flakburst is just as effective in space as it is in atmosphere (without resorting to "the writers are ignorant").

I was unaware that flakbursting in space was ever considered effective. The references I noted used here focused on atmospheric combat.

[Darth Wong]

Sensible enough. Knocking the shield equipment around to beat it up instead of overheating it.

However, I don't recall getting the impression that the buffeting was significant, in which case it'd be more like tapping on the lawnmower with a pencil. It'd run out of gas before anything broke. I could be remembering the severity of it as shown in the movie wrongly, however. (The Falcon certainly wasn't being slapped around like it was from direct hits from the Avenger.)

And naturally, nobody on the Falcon was concerned about these flakbursts actually damaging their vessel. Is there a problem here? I thought it was obvious that a great many such hits would be required to damage the ship. But using kiloton-range weapons would have probably taken out the TIE fighters themselves from the shockwave and fireball.

It should also be noted that the Falcon's shields survived exiting hyperspace in an asteroid field. It'd seem that something that can survive impacts like that would require a lot of tapping to break down.

The ship was not being shaken around any more violently than it is by typical flakbursts.

I was unaware that flakbursting in space was ever considered effective. The references I noted used here focused on atmospheric combat.

How do we know that flakbursting in atmosphere is ever considered effective? We can observe buffeting, but that's it.

[Mad]

And naturally, nobody on the Falcon was concerned about these flakbursts actually damaging their vessel. Is there a problem here? I thought it was obvious that a great many such hits would be required to damage the ship. But using kiloton-range weapons would have probably taken out the TIE fighters themselves from the shockwave and fireball.

What'd be the point of firing self-bursting shots at all if it meant the TIEs had barely any chance of hurting the Falcon? It'd be more sensible to set the weapons for long range and blast away at full power, if the bolts had the capability releasing the full energy of the beam in a flak-like manner.

The ship was not being shaken around any more violently than it is by typical flakbursts.

How do we know that flakbursting in atmosphere is ever considered effective? We can observe buffeting, but that's it.

I never said it was very effective, either. But if it's not effective, then why rely on it instead of using long-range settings and full power? That's another reason I think whatever causes the bursts is not converting the full energy of the beam.

As to why the bolt tends to terminate with the beam, it seems the bolt is more of a side-effect than anything else (from ICS2)... terminating the beam should prevent the side-effect from appearing.

[omegaLancer]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by omegaLancer:
wouldn't it be calling on visual proof, since we all seen the operation of the Deathstar superlaser and the Republic clone trooper Heavy lasers.

Since the beams did combine and didnot pass thru one other, it is an indication that Some kind of Photon photon scattering is taking place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why? In both cases, the interaction takes place at a fixed distance from a projection device. There is no reason to assume that the beams do this naturally, as opposed to some sort of control from the base unit. In the case of the DS superlaser, all of the beams actually STOP at the point of intersection and do NOT release their energy, remember?

That correct this is not unknown with soliton,



Soliton Fusion
If you have viewed the previous animations, you will have noticed that just after the solitons pass through one another, their speed is reduced as they struggle to escape what is apparently an attractive binding force. For incident velocities slightly less than those presented earlier, the emerging bullets come to a complete standstill after the collision and then subsequently fuse to form a single soliton state.

This is not the whole sequence but just the beginning, middle and end of two light bullet fusing, forming a final bullet. The diagram of the Deathstar from the ICS show focusing crystal at the outlet of the laser channels, Optical crystal are used to form soliton from laser light.

Are not crystals also used in a jedi light saber, which also seem to be another example of SW advance laser technology..[/img]

[Darth Wong]

What'd be the point of firing self-bursting shots at all if it meant the TIEs had barely any chance of hurting the Falcon?

You must be talking to someone else. I don't buy into the idea of self-bursting lasers, turbolasers, or blasters. The idea that they're just near-misses which interact with forcefields is not perfect but it doesn't create as many problems.

It'd be more sensible to set the weapons for long range and blast away at full power, if the bolts had the capability releasing the full energy of the beam in a flak-like manner.

Unless the "flak-like manner" is actually caused by a shield or forcefield interaction with the target, and they can't fire full-power shots at very long range because they're space fighters, they perform like shit in atmosphere, and they have trouble accurately tracking a moving target with fixed-axis guns at long range. So they would be fried by the shockwave and fireball from their own guns at full power, and it makes more sense to get close and fire low-power shots to harass and damage the Falcon.

I never said it was very effective, either. But if it's not effective, then why rely on it instead of using long-range settings and full power? That's another reason I think whatever causes the bursts is not converting the full energy of the beam.

As to why the bolt tends to terminate with the beam, it seems the bolt is more of a side-effect than anything else (from ICS2)... terminating the beam should prevent the side-effect from appearing.

If most of the beam continues on indefinitely and invisibly, one would think that we would have seen one of these beams damage something at some point in one of these battles.

[Darth Wong]

Soliton Fusion

If you have viewed the previous animations, you will have noticed that just after the solitons pass through one another, their speed is reduced as they struggle to escape what is apparently an attractive binding force. For incident velocities slightly less than those presented earlier, the emerging bullets come to a complete standstill after the collision and then subsequently fuse to form a single soliton state.

This is not the whole sequence but just the beginning, middle and end of two light bullet fusing, forming a final bullet. The diagram of the Deathstar from the ICS show focusing crystal at the outlet of the laser channels, Optical crystal are used to form soliton from laser light.

That's cute, but you're really overdoing it now. A light bullet is a pulse of light which moves through a medium whose refractive index is dependent upon intensity. The variable refractive index causes the "bullet" to "shape" itself as it moves through the medium, and it also causes interesting interactions.

However, the fact that the "bullet" slows down slightly is not magical, nor is it some fantastic side-effect of soliton waves. The light is moving through a medium whose refractive index is dependent upon intensity, so the increased intensity of the colliding "bullets" causes a change in refractive index, which slows down the photons. This entire phenomenon is ENTIRELY caused by the refractive index of the medium.

Then, you take the fact that a miniscule fraction of photons are theorized to interact with each other under the right conditions, and assume that this means photons in space can behave as if they're moving through a medium with intensity-dependent refractive index. You also take the slight decrease in velocity of the "light bullets" in a refractive medium as evidence that lasers can hit each other and stop dead in space!

At the risk of being insulting, you have gone beyond playful experimentation with science terms and into outright abuse of those concepts.

Are not crystals also used in a jedi light saber, which also seem to be another example of SW advance laser technology.

SW obviously has advanced technology, but I reiterate that it's much easier to accept a technological device which projects some kind of laser-deflecting forcefield (since we really have no choice, given the observed behaviour of shields) than a group of photons spontaneously bursting in vacuum.

[omegaLancer]

I am not being cute or dense, I known that light bullets and even solitons require a medium. the whole point of the Medium is to shape the wave function of the photons to get the non linear effect for the self focusing.

Why is the medium require, due to the nature of Light, the two field component electrical and magnetic interact with the electrical fields of the matter ( also the magnetic, but that a weaker interaction).

What I trying to state is that at the energy available to Star war universe, new methods would be available. You yourself reply that the composite effect of the superlaser could be due to the force fields focusing or holding the beams.

If we are researching direct photon to photon interaction ( It a real area of research, I not just dropping Scientific term) today and some optical scientist hold out a hope of using it to create a new generation of laser devices.

"Exposing Photon-Photon Scattering
It is intuitive to think of light as interacting with matter and not with itself, but this ignores the predictions of physics, which hold that photon-photon scattering is possible. Researchers at Umeå University in Umeå and at Chalmers University of Technology in Göteborg, both in Sweden, have suggested a means to observe this scattering"


The fact is not so long ago no one even believed that such interaction would be seen in the lab. But it has

"Other teams have detected photon-photon scattering; notably, researchers from Stanford University, the University of Tennessee, Princeton University and the University of Rochester "
recent discussion cited the 1997 observation of photon-photon scattering
(Phys Rev Letters, Vol. 79 pp. 1626-1629 (1997)). I just ran across
an interesting passage in John Wheelers recent autobiography about this.

From "Geons, Black Holes, and Quantum Foam" by John Wheeler, 1998,
page 118:

...What Breit and I did, the year after the positron was discovered,
was to calculate the probablility that two photons, in colliding,
would create an electron-positron pair. ...

...Breit and I not only abandoned hope of seeing the effects of
photons hitting photons in outer space; we also concluded that no
source of radiation would be strong enough to make pair creation by
photons visible in the laboratory either. We weren't quite right.
Sixty-three years later, in 1997, scientists at Stanford Linear
Accelerator Center announced the observation of electron-positron pairs
created by photon-photon collisions, conforming to the prediction that
Breit and I had made. This achievement, a real tour de force, was
made possible by stunning developments in both accelerator and laser
technology, far beyond anything we could have imagined in 1934. ...



Alan (Katz@Halcyon.Com)"

Now that fact as it stand that in the 1934 it was believe that this effect didnot even exist, but we know have proven it does.

The fact is that we are attempting to increase the effect via methods such as resonance cavity, and magnetic fields show that it not just hair brain idea, but is worth while area of research.

If this pan out, it may be able to duplicate the feats that we see with Kerr effect in medium, like air or plasma without the use of of a medium by just be having the photons interact with each other.

Now at high enought energy, like those found in super nova and energy emission of active blackhole some physicist believe that this effect could form a new form of matter called Photonuim where the photon actually is a interact with itself.

At the energy that we contribute to a single turbolaser blast, could easily match these events.

I find it just as easy to believe that Flak effect could easily be explain by such photon manipulating technology ( not that I donot believe alot of the explosion we were seeing was not also due to shield beam interactions), that some unseen projectile is being used.

Even if not , you youself have stated that external method may be used to control light, as in the case of the light Saber, would not these external control not be put to use to create exploding Laser bolts.

Alot of this would not fall in line in what we see in the AOTC and ESB but will match the countless EU reference to flak that is tied to laser and TL..

[Mad]

You must be talking to someone else. I don't buy into the idea of self-bursting lasers, turbolasers, or blasters. The idea that they're just near-misses which interact with forcefields is not perfect but it doesn't create as many problems.

I figured you were playing devil's advocate in your previous few responses to me.

Unless the "flak-like manner" is actually caused by a shield or forcefield interaction with the target, and they can't fire full-power shots at very long range because they're space fighters, they perform like shit in atmosphere, and they have trouble accurately tracking a moving target with fixed-axis guns at long range. So they would be fried by the shockwave and fireball from their own guns at full power, and it makes more sense to get close and fire low-power shots to harass and damage the Falcon.

Some targets with flak around them are supposed to be shieldess (airspeeders at Hoth); more power typically means longer range with SW energy weaponry, including atmospheric weapons; granted; TIE guns can fire off-axis, so accuracy in that regard shouldn't be too bad.

I think you misinterpreted what I mean, though. I wasn't saying it'd make sense to fire at long range, I was saying it would make more sense to set the flakbursts to appear at long range (or not at all, if possible), while firing at short range. That way, hits to the shields would cause them to absorb full power shots, while misses wouldn't cause a flakburst that'd kill the TIEs.

So if there are flakbursts, it is very likely that the flakbursts do not release the entirety of the beam's energy.

If most of the beam continues on indefinitely and invisibly, one would think that we would have seen one of these beams damage something at some point in one of these battles.

In that case, one would also think misses that don't explode but visibly continue on would also eventually hit something. Most of the battles with the mid-air explosions being seen takes place in environments where there is not much to hit, so it'd be rather tough to see any effects from the rest of the beam.