AT-ATs and Hoth split

[Vympel]

Err, why is it idiotic? X-wings are MUCH larger vessels than speeders (more than twice as large - they're nearly as large as an AT-AT itself.) I don't see anything wrong whatsoever with an AT-AT being taken out by a starfighter at all, lasers or no. (of course, Sea Skimmer also pointed out the obvious points here.)

The 'fuel tank' part is what pisses me off. Fuel tank for what? Is he suggesting that a vehicle capable of firing kiloton level blasts is being run by some sort of combustion engine, rather than a reactor (which is what the ICS says). And why the hell did the fuel tank catastrophically explode (to the extent described in whatever novel it was)?

Not to mention he wrote that goddamn passage without even bothering to explain why the X-Wings on Hoth weren't used- reading it just makes me want to say "thanks a lot, you inconsiderate lazy ass fucktard".

[Tribun]

Eu-writes tend to write rubbish, which we cannot really understand.
One of the things that hatched in thier brains, and got nothing to do with the movies, was the holonet.
They completly ignored, the direct transmission in TESB. Which surely was hyperwave communication. That hyperwave communication really exists is totally canon since AOTC.
But in the EU, even the military needs the holonet, as if hyperwave communication was forgotten.

[vakundok]

Just to be clear:
I know that on official level the ISDs carry AT-ATs and I DO NOT question it. I question only that LFL made that official fact canon. For those who watch the official and canon together (of course different levels), it does not count. For those, who watch the two highly separated (or are canon purists) it is extremely important.

I have NO canon evidence that ISDs do not carry AT-ATs. (Otherwise I would question the official fact itself.)
1. I question that LFL has the right to do it on its own.

... in a close second we have the authorized adaptations of the films: the novels, radio dramas, and comics.

I think authorized means authorized by GL, and I think he did not authorize the ICSs. However, if someone knows sure about it, please, let me know.
2. I try to show that making the AT-ATs so common raises the importance of the question: Why the rebells were unprepared for them?
I think it is clear now that they had acces to larger weapons that we saw on Hoth. Whether could they be mounted and operated on surface turrets? Mounting a weapon on a fighter is far more complicated than building a surface support structure for it (except in the case of weapon hardpoints, of course). This is a mechanical fact. Since a fighter seems to be capable to operate (and fight) under atmospheric conditions, and blasters seem to not really be affected by gravity, I think they could. It is still questionable in the case of the turbolasers, but we saw turbolasers mounted into the surface turrets of the DS.
The time requirement of the building of these support structures (maybe turrets) can be an answer, but when Han returned we saw a turret already set up suggesting that they had at least a day before the incident with the probot.


Side note:
Could someone quote the part which talks about the soldiers' task (directly after the walkers were spotted) from TESB novelization? I would like to see it in original language.

[Phyre]

Err, why is it idiotic? X-wings are MUCH larger vessels than speeders (more than twice as large - they're nearly as large as an AT-AT itself.) I don't see anything wrong whatsoever with an AT-AT being taken out by a starfighter at all, lasers or no. (of course, Sea Skimmer also pointed out the obvious points here.)

Umm... They coudn't use X-wings very long in the harsh environment of Hoth. And the cannons on Airspeeders are larger than on X-wings. And, as stated many times before, they were just trying to buy enough time to escape Echo Base, not fight a war there.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I have NO canon evidence that ISDs do not carry AT-ATs. (Otherwise I would question the official fact itself.)
1. I question that LFL has the right to do it on its own.

... in a close second we have the authorized adaptations of the films: the novels, radio dramas, and comics.

I think authorized means authorized by GL, and I think he did not authorize the ICSs. However, if someone knows sure about it, please, let me know.

Why, hello Darkstar. How are you?

[Sea Skimmer]

The 'fuel tank' part is what pisses me off. Fuel tank for what? Is he suggesting that a vehicle capable of firing kiloton level blasts is being run by some sort of combustion engine, rather than a reactor (which is what the ICS says).

ICS also shows a liquid fuel tank of some form at the rear of the AT-AT. Reactors need reactant, and they appear to require constant input rather then working off a single core as a fission plant does. Note the huge fuel tanks on the Accumulator. In addition ICS says that SW reactors can run off such things as liquid metals or pressurized radioactive gases, whatever in that tank probably isn't diesel.

[Illuminatus Primus]

There's a difference between fuel as in engine propellant and reactor reactant--which would be hypermatter.

[Boba Fett]

the only guns capable of taking out a AT-AT's are mounted on the AT-AT! The Black Market does not have access to them because the Empire likes it that way. The Rebellion's Base at Hoth was just starting out and was not intended to be perminent. The movie implies that they had just barely moved into the place when the movie starts. they had just started to unpack and they have to evacuate. Even if they had these heavy artillery they would not have had time to set the things up anyway!

That's true.

Even the obsolete Atgar towers were expensive to the rebels.

[vakundok]

Why, hello Darkstar. How are you?

Please? Who is (or was) Darkstar?

[His Divine Shadow]

3.: They do not know that the most common warship of the empire carries AT-ATs.

Nitpick, I doubt that ISD's are the most common warship in the empire, smaller ships ought to exists in far larger numbers than ISD's, ISD's though are the ships that the Empire is known for.

[Vympel]

Why, hello Darkstar. How are you?

Please? Who is (or was) Darkstar?

Someone who makes the same argument against the explicit Lucasfilm statement that the ICS have been given the seal ("impripatur", which was the word used) of canon. It was also various Lucasfilm statements that laid out the canon heirarchy up to this point, so making an appeal to George Lucas is frankly nonsensical.

[vakundok]

Nitpick, I doubt that ISD's are the most common warship in the empire, smaller ships ought to exists in far larger numbers than ISD's, ISD's though are the ships that the Empire is known for.

Most commonly seen (in the movies) warships of the empire. Is it OK now?

Someone who makes the same argument against the explicit Lucasfilm statement that the ICS have been given the seal ("impripatur", which was the word used) of canon. It was also various Lucasfilm statements that laid out the canon heirarchy up to this point, so making an appeal to George Lucas is frankly nonsensical.

So, it has been discussed before. Could you provide a link to it?
Nonsensical? To think that GL is over LFL?

[Vympel]

So, it has been discussed before. Could you provide a link to it?
Nonsensical? To think that GL is over LFL?

George Lucas has never laid out the canon heirarchy, only Lucasfilm representatives have. All the relevant quotes are stickied at the top of PSW.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Comments on the Canon Heirarchy can be found in these threads:

Quote Clashing?

A thread on the differences between literary and inspired (Biblical) canon; seperating the meanings of the Sansweet and Cerasi quotes from the Rostini quote

Sticky: Canon and Official Quotes

Revisiting the Cinescape Quote

[vakundok]

So, to answer my own question:
Yes, Lucasfilm has the right to declare something as canon on its own, since Lucas does not really take care about that canonity as long as his movies are superior to anything else.
However it is not nonsensical to make an appeal to GL. Since he can override anything related to SW, actually it is the only way to "get rid of the canonity of the ICSs".

Is there a way for a simple fan to contact Lucas?

But untill it happens (if happens at all), the ICSs are canon, I stand corrected. So, Victories existed, ISDs are Imperial class imperial star destroyers and carry AT-ATs and Executor is a Super class ship. (Boy, I really hate it! But I have to admit it. )

[Spanky The Dolphin]

My God, you are a pathetic little loon...

[Illuminatus Primus]

So, to answer my own question:
Yes, Lucasfilm has the right to declare something as canon on its own, since Lucas does not really take care about that canonity as long as his movies are superior to anything else.
However it is not nonsensical to make an appeal to GL. Since he can override anything related to SW, actually it is the only way to "get rid of the canonity of the ICSs".

Is there a way for a simple fan to contact Lucas?

But untill it happens (if happens at all), the ICSs are canon, I stand corrected. So, Victories existed, ISDs are Imperial class imperial star destroyers and carry AT-ATs and Executor is a Super class ship. (Boy, I really hate it! But I have to admit it. )

You're a pitiful idiot.

You utterly failed to present an outright contradiction between higher canon and lower canon. However, early official, documented WEG-lack of research, the lack of resemblance between the Executor and the WEG SSD, and the failure of WEG to grasp the Executor was the first of its class and thus the source of its class designation.

All of the above examples are examples of explicit canon/official contradiction, with canon overcoming, or at least an example of more historically reliable official overriding historically poorly researched and error-ridden official.

[Vympel]

However it is not nonsensical to make an appeal to GL. Since he can override anything related to SW, actually it is the only way to "get rid of the canonity of the ICSs".

Perhaps you'd care to point out the express contradiction between the movies and the ICS?

You haven't got one- like I said, your argument is solely based on the notion that because the Rebels couldn't hurt the AT-ATs couldn't, they mustn't have been very common, therefore they're not carried on Star Destroyers, therefore they can't be carried on ISDs like the ICS says. Frankly, that's ludicrous, and contains multiple leaps in logic.

Is there a way for a simple fan to contact Lucas?

Put simply, no. And if you could, I'm pretty sure he would laugh quite hard at the notion that AT-ATs aren't carried by ISDs, since that's exactly what we saw, and we have a host of EU sources that further attest to that fact. Your position is the absolute worst possible out of all of them, as it requires a multitude of sources to be tossed out for no good reason.

But untill it happens (if happens at all), the ICSs are canon, I stand corrected. So, Victories existed

Who said they didn't? Their existence is fact.

ISDs are Imperial class imperial star destroyers

Slang, just like 'Super' Star Destroyer.

and carry AT-ATs

That's right.

and Executor is a Super class ship. (Boy, I really hate it! But I hav to admit it. )

The name 'Super-class' nor the Executor even appears in the ICS.

Stop being an idiot.

[vakundok]

since that's exactly what we saw

Sorry I missed to see AT-AT carrying ships starting from the ISDs.

But untill it happens (if happens at all), the ICSs are canon, I stand corrected. So, Victories existed

Who said they didn't? Their existence is fact.

Their existence was a fact on official level.

The name 'Super-class' nor the Executor even appears in the ICS.

Do you mean this on page 6: "Lord Vader led this fleet from the Executor, first of the Super Star Destroyers, ..."? But you are right it really does not mention Super- class.


I really cannot understand you. All of you.

Under the Emperor's rule these have been superseded by the new Imperial- class Star Destroyers.

Imperial- class Star Destroyers are 1600 meters long, ...

To me, it seems that if I disagree the ICS I must be wrong, but if you disagree the ICS the ICS must be wrong or contain only slang.

[Boba Fett]

1. The X-Wings, though powerful, weren't suited to combat either in Hoth's environment (for any reason- though cold is stupid considering how cold space is) or under a theatre shield. I like this theory best, since it also explains why they bothered to put so much effort into laboriously converting civilian T-47 airspeeders with blaster cannons and removing their heat suppression equipment (the ICS states that the T-47 speeders were running too cold to work) to do the job of air support/patrol on Hoth if the X-Wings could just use their more powerful weapons. It would also explain the lack of TIE and XG-1 Starwing craft, which we know to operate in such capacity.

Possible, but unlikely given their shields (which could eaisly keep the cold out, I imagine. Besides which, once powered, an X-wing is going to be putting out a HELLUVA lot of waste energy. Lets also not forget this craft functioned without problem after being buried under a swamp for hours, if not days or weeks. The fact it can operate in the cold of space without problems suggests it might not have problems with the temperature either, and anything else I coudl think of would be solved by shields.

1. I think shield doesn't solve temperature problems.

2. The problem with the T-47s was not directly the cold temperature. The problem was iceing on the radiator "blades".
The comparisation of the coldness of space is not correct with the Hoth environment since in space you don't have humidity.
On the other hand the X-wing's exhausts are so hot that iceing won't be a problem...I guess.

3. In Tales of the Bounty Hunters - I know, I know... - Boba Fett observes the evacuation before he tries to capture the MF, before it escaped into the asteroid belt.
He saw one transport with fighter escort, then a wave of fighters, then another transport with fighter escort etc.
Even if Hoth base was the main Rebel stronghold they wouldn't stand the chance against the Death Squadron's overwhelming fighter superiority, not to mention that the rebels didn't collected their fleets by that time, so dropping in some smaller task forces against the imperials would've been suicidal.
That's why they decided to flee and not risking their precious and expensive fighters on delaying their inevitable defeat.

4. Why they didn't mount fighter weapons on pods and vehicles?
Rebels didn't prepare to face such a heavy ground assault.
Why?
It wasn't a standard imperial procedure to scan total systems with tousands of probe droids. (A standard imperial recon craft should be taken out by fighters before it reaches orbit.)
Echo Base was hidden in a backwater system and they hoped they can operate there for months or years without noticing their presence. Since wampas don't use the Holonet and the brain capacity of a Tauntaun is not enough to be an imperial spy, they had quite a good chance to evade detection. (Think about the size of the galaxy and say Vader got a lot of luck.) They were unlucky, such as the late Ozzel, who started questioning Vader's intuition. Still we get a good picture of the imperial thinking from his dialogue. He didn't believed it was a rebel base, he suggested that it can be a "pirate-colony", or whatever, suggesting that no further investigating is needed.
Vader decided to direct the fleet to the Hoth system. If Ozzel leads the fleet the rebels may flee from the Hoth system unscratched, after they noticed the probe droid.

Where am I heading?

Echo Base were not meant to be found so easily!!!

Bad luck the imps did...

5. To order the X-wing against the AT-ATs would be a short and pointless victory and just make the imperials angry enough to send down couple wing of TIEs to erase them.
There you go...you lost your fighters, the transports don't have escorts, you lost pilots and will loose the unescorted transports...for what? You managed to took out several walkers. They still have several hundreds in orbit.
Rieekan has decided wisely, there was no better thing then hold while they can then retreat while evacuating the base.

6. I don't know wether McQuarries' production paintings are canon or not, but one of them shows the hangar bay of the Devastator (the picture was made for ANH), with the Tantive IV docked in and in the back of the hangar you can see some landing craft and an AT-AT.

I think it's proof enough that ISDs carry AT-ATs.

Anyways, the picture can be seen in the Art of Star Wars (ANH version).

[Sea Skimmer]

2. The problem with the T-47s was not directly the cold temperature. The problem was iceing on the radiator "blades".
The comparisation of the coldness of space is not correct with the Hoth environment since in space you don't have humidity.
On the other hand the X-wing's exhausts are so hot that iceing won't be a problem...I guess.

On the windshield it would be, X-wings don't have to sit on the ground for hours cooling off before the pilots hop out after all. The particle shields should block the ice through, but then perhaps they don’t stop everything?

Anyway I think the most likely reason is all X-Wings where needed to protect the transport. Luke went off on his own, but he might have escorted a transport part way. Plus the blockade probably wasn't very tight by that point since Imperial ships had broken off to chase the Falcon and other vessels.

[vakundok]

Could someone quote the novelization of TESB? (When Luke had just satt into his speeder, Leia gave orders to the speeder pilots.) I think it would resolve the question whether all fighters were needed to cover the transports.

[Boba Fett]

2. The problem with the T-47s was not directly the cold temperature. The problem was iceing on the radiator "blades".
The comparisation of the coldness of space is not correct with the Hoth environment since in space you don't have humidity.
On the other hand the X-wing's exhausts are so hot that iceing won't be a problem...I guess.

On the windshield it would be, X-wings don't have to sit on the ground for hours cooling off before the pilots hop out after all. The particle shields should block the ice through, but then perhaps they don’t stop everything?

Anyway I think the most likely reason is all X-Wings where needed to protect the transport. Luke went off on his own, but he might have escorted a transport part way. Plus the blockade probably wasn't very tight by that point since Imperial ships had broken off to chase the Falcon and other vessels.

Yes. When Luke hops into his X-wing you can see a leaving transport in the back with escorts. Maybe he followed them and at the orbit he turned towards Dagobah.

[Vympel]

Sorry I missed to see AT-AT carrying ships starting from the ISDs.

So what? What the hell is your argument? As I've pointed out, your argument against the ICS canonicity is made on the pathetic basis that the Rebels couldn't stop the AT-ATs, therefore they weren't prepared for them, therefore they're not carried by ISDs. However, they'd also have to be not carried by any other craft for your 'argument' to work, and that flies in the face of everything we know to be true from SW sources. Not to mention your argument is a nonstarter the moment you attempt to argue that 'non-prepardness'='non-knowledge'. It's a leap in logic that's totally unjustified.

Their existence was a fact on official level.

No, their existence is a fact, with no caveats. Point me to one canon source that refutes the existence of Victory-class Star Destroyers.

Do you mean this on page 6: "Lord Vader led this fleet from the Executor, first of the Super Star Destroyers, ..."? But you are right it really does not mention Super- class.

The Executor does not have a dedicated entry, which is what I meant.

I really cannot understand you. All of you.

The feeling is mutual.

Under the Emperor's rule these have been superseded by the new Imperial- class Star Destroyers.

Imperial- class Star Destroyers are 1600 meters long, ...

To me, it seems that if I disagree the ICS I must be wrong, but if you disagree the ICS the ICS must be wrong or contain only slang.

Who said it was wrong? It's Rebel slang. Rebel slang does not equal wrong.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Vympel, give up. He's a fucking idiot.