MC vs SD

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-07-11 03:47pm

On the note of my previous comment, I wonder what the Death Star's Tie fighter pilots were doing during the battle.

Pilot one: Did you know Rebels are attack us?

Pilot two: I wonder why we haven't been scrambled yet?

Pilot three: Well our fearless leader doesn't think the attack is a threat despite the fact that Lord Vader has launched all his Ties already.

Pilot one: So we are suppost to do sit around and wait for the Rebels to get lucky?

Pilot Three: I guess so. Would you like to join me at the snack bar?

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-07-11 08:27pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Because we see only one pilot get shot down by them before they go in the trench. In the trench, they don't take nearly as much fire; they can fly in a straight line without getting hit by the TLs all the way down.

And not all of the starfighters were doing the trench run! Others appeared to be running interference up top - notice that it really was only Vader's flight element that went down after the Rebels doing the torpedo runs - where were the other nine starfighters?

Even still, I'd take 12 elite pilots against 30-40 average ones, especially when half of those are on dedicated strike missions or acting as human shields (due to a lack of proton torpedos).
What do you mean 12 elites to 30-40 average? Are you sayign the MC gets Rouge Squadron and the ISD gets green pilots.

I was referring to Vader's personal squadron versus the Rebel strike force against the DS2. In no way does "30-40" pilots match the amount of pilots the ISD can send out at once, so I fail to see how you interpreted it that way.

At Yavin it sure looked like the X-Wings were being outmaneuvered. Not a single X-Wing was able to shake a TIE without assistance from another fighter.

Chalk it up to pilot skill and the use of the wingman system by the Rebels. They didn't seem to do so bad against the Imperial pilots at Endor, did they? X-Wings versus TIE/lns, nothing much different there.

How do you figure the A-Wing's superiority to the TIE/I? I've never seen an on-screen comparison (unless its from EU).

ILM's acceleration/maneuverability chart outlining the fighter combatants at Endor. Futhermore, EU material indicates its general superiority and does not contradict canon.

Finally, what good would anti-starfighter missiles be? You know that jamming prevents effecting lock on to fast-moving targets, and that they can do no damage to capship shielding.

Jamming does not stop lock in its totality; clearly we see fighters' targetting computers active at Yavin. It may decrease effective range, but not stop them entirely.

Anti-starfighter missiles would not be able to damage a Star Destroyer. They're too weak to even consider pentrating the shield threshold. If used after shield drops, they may be useful. But as a "first strike" thing, they are worthless.

Quit changing my argument. I in no case said that the A-Wings would be hitting ISDs with their light missiles but rather the enemy starfighters.

And since most agree an ISD is superior to an MC80 in a slugging match, add the ISDs superior numbers of fighters (27 of which can carry heavy munitions), and you can see the MC80 doesn't really stand much of a chance against her Imperial counter-part.

I never argued otherwise except that the MC80 could damage an ISD.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-07-11 08:29pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:A-Wings will consistently destroy TIE Interceptors in direct combat, as they are more survivable, have greater range due to anti-fighter missiles (which are probably proximity-hit kills against the Interceptor), and their energy weapons can swivel, allowing the A-Wing greater flexibility while still being able to strike at the Interceptor.

Their sensor suite may very well be superior as well since the Rebels seemed to like them for reconnaisance missions and long-range interception so well.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-07-11 11:34pm

phongn wrote:And not all of the starfighters were doing the trench run! Others appeared to be running interference up top - notice that it really was only Vader's flight element that went down after the Rebels doing the torpedo runs - where were the other nine starfighters?

Point. The others have gone ahead and resolved that one.

I was referring to Vader's personal squadron versus the Rebel strike force against the DS2. In no way does "30-40" pilots match the amount of pilots the ISD can send out at once, so I fail to see how you interpreted it that way.

Against the DS2? Do you mean the DS1? Anyways re-reading the earlier post (I was a bit confused by what you said), I'm not sure what your point is...You'd rather have Vader's squad against the Rebel force...and?

Chalk it up to pilot skill and the use of the wingman system by the Rebels. They didn't seem to do so bad against the Imperial pilots at Endor, did they? X-Wings versus TIE/lns, nothing much different there.

Pilot skill? I don't think over-relying on wingmen is skill, considering that doing so is a good way to get yourself killed (which happened to several Rebel pilots). As for Endor, the action there mostly followed Lando in the Falcon, cutting between Wedge and random fighter action here and there.

ILM's acceleration/maneuverability chart outlining the fighter combatants at Endor. Futhermore, EU material indicates its general superiority and does not contradict canon.

Ok.

Jamming does not stop lock in its totality; clearly we see fighters' targetting computers active at Yavin. It may decrease effective range, but not stop them entirely.

Lets not forget the target of the missiles was stationary; Luke's bomb did make an impressive turn into the shaft, however I don't think it would be able to maintain a constant lock while chasing down a fighter (it should be noted that the only time a missile has been able to effectively track its target was in AOTC, which was lacking the presence of jamming).

Quit changing my argument. I in no case said that the A-Wings would be hitting ISDs with their light missiles but rather the enemy starfighters.

Sorry must've mis-interpereted. Of course the fighters of either side will deploy their heavy munitions. But given the close range they must be deployed at (otherwise they'd be shot down) and the distance the two targets engage each other from I do believe that the TLs will be hitting before any missiles do.

I never argued otherwise except that the MC80 could damage an ISD.

I think we got into this disucsing Rebel vs. Imperial fighters. Heh, seems we got a tad off-topic.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-07-14 12:33pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
I was referring to Vader's personal squadron versus the Rebel strike force against the DS2. In no way does "30-40" pilots match the amount of pilots the ISD can send out at once, so I fail to see how you interpreted it that way.
Against the DS2? Do you mean the DS1? Anyways re-reading the earlier post (I was a bit confused by what you said), I'm not sure what your point is...You'd rather have Vader's squad against the Rebel force...and?

Yes, I meant DS1. I was referring to the skill differential was what caused so many Rebel pilots to die that day, not neccessarily that the TIE/ln was so superior to the Rebel X-Wings that it owned the day.

Chalk it up to pilot skill and the use of the wingman system by the Rebels. They didn't seem to do so bad against the Imperial pilots at Endor, did they? X-Wings versus TIE/lns, nothing much different there.
Pilot skill? I don't think over-relying on wingmen is skill, considering that doing so is a good way to get yourself killed (which happened to several Rebel pilots). As for Endor, the action there mostly followed Lando in the Falcon, cutting between Wedge and random fighter action here and there.

Yes, but considering how horribly outnumbered they were they still didn't do that bad if they managed to have 20-30 fighters left over (which were promptly sent to Bakura on a CVE). And the wingman is supposed to keep the lead's tail clear.

Lets not forget the target of the missiles was stationary; Luke's bomb did make an impressive turn into the shaft, however I don't think it would be able to maintain a constant lock while chasing down a fighter (it should be noted that the only time a missile has been able to effectively track its target was in AOTC, which was lacking the presence of jamming).

Yes, but Luke's torpedo didn't appear to be designed to go fighter hunting but rather to hit static targets. I'm still referring to the A-Wing loadouts, not X-Wings. And while Obi-Wan didn't appear to be jamming (or his ECM was ineffective), jamming shouldn't completely stop missiles from functioning at all!

Sorry must've mis-interpereted. Of course the fighters of either side will deploy their heavy munitions. But given the close range they must be deployed at (otherwise they'd be shot down) and the distance the two targets engage each other from I do believe that the TLs will be hitting before any missiles do.

Again, I was referring to fighter combat and specifically light anti-fighter munitions. Furthermore, TIE/Is do not appear to be equipped with missiles for most missions, prefering to use their inbuilt gun armament. I was not arguing strikes against capital ships, which A-Wings usually do not do.

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2003-07-14 12:59pm

My own little nit pick. What are we drawing the Vader's elite force from? It seemed in the movie to be more along the lines of "You and you come with me." He seemed to just randomly grab a few TIE pilots stationed on DS1 and tell them to come with him instead of "Vader's Elite TIE force." TIE fighter, while low rate because of a game, seems to confirm this as you fly Vader's wing but aren't part of his force. I forget but I don't think Shadows of the Empire indicated the existance of Vader's personnel wing.

Also the only TIE kills I remember in ANH were made by Red squadron ie Rogue Squadron ie Elite Rebel pilots. Personally I'm thinking the 181st, Avenger Squadron, Rogue squadron, etc. should be left out of this.

Striderteen · Post by **Striderteen** » 2003-07-14 11:08pm

"Several fighters have broken off from the main group. Come with me."

I agree; the movie line strongly suggests that he just commandeered a couple of random TIE pilots, as opposed to an elite group of his own.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-07-14 11:34pm

It doesn't matter; can you prove an irreconcilable contradiction? If not, official stands.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-07-15 12:13am

Striderteen wrote:"Several fighters have broken off from the main group. Come with me."

I agree; the movie line strongly suggests that he just commandeered a couple of random TIE pilots, as opposed to an elite group of his own.

Or these are his pilots that he has on standby incase he wishes to go mix it up(it makes sense that he would save his two best pilots to cover him). They were standing by him at the time the officer reports "we count 30 Rebel Ships Lord Vader. They are so small that they are avoiding our turbolasers." Vader "then we wil have to take them out ship to ship. Get the crews to thier fighters." This Officer reported to Vader not Tarkin. Later a different officer tells Tarkin "We have anylized their attack and it does pose a danger would you like to have your ship standing by."

It is Obvious the the only fighters launched were under Vader's direct command!

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2003-07-15 11:50am

Yes the fighters launched were because of Vader's command that however doesn't mean their his personal unit. I think it's safe to assume as well Vader's authority can unsurp Tarkins so they don't have to be his. What Official source are you drawing the Elite wing from? Still mainly we saw them going up against Red Squadron which aren't run of the mill Rebel pilots. They're generally considered to be Rogue Squadron as the ones who died are always listed among those who died in Rogue Squadron. It's quite obvious that TIEs are more manueverable then X-wings "I can't shake him!", but don't have as good protection.

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2003-07-15 12:30pm

If Vader's authority could usurp Tarkin's, then he could just order all the TIE fighters to scramble, hmm?

Honestly, I think Vader's authority is probably a lot better than Tarkin's when he's face-to-face with the person he's exerting authority over, but at that point in the overall scheme of things Tarkin probably had more "official" power.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-07-15 04:45pm

I always interpreted Vader launching whatever units were directly under his authority - and I can't see him choosing anything but the best pilots for his missions.

Red Squadon would indeed become Rogue Squadron later, but IIRC there weren't that many elites in there at the time of Endor - especially when some of them were undertaking Operation Human Shield (to protect the torpedo shooters).

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-07-15 05:16pm

Isolder74 wrote:
Striderteen wrote:"Several fighters have broken off from the main group. Come with me."

I agree; the movie line strongly suggests that he just commandeered a couple of random TIE pilots, as opposed to an elite group of his own.
Or these are his pilots that he has on standby incase he wishes to go mix it up(it makes sense that he would save his two best pilots to cover him). They were standing by him at the time the officer reports "we count 30 Rebel Ships Lord Vader. They are so small that they are avoiding our turbolasers." Vader "then we wil have to take them out ship to ship. Get the crews to thier fighters." This Officer reported to Vader not Tarkin. Later a different officer tells Tarkin "We have anylized their attack and it does pose a danger would you like to have your ship standing by."

It is Obvious the the only fighters launched were under Vader's direct command!

Yep. Although the line does make it seem hes just nabbing the first pilots coming his way. Mayhaps at first he just commands his squads to go out and kill the fighters.
Then when its clear the pilots arn't gonna shot the ones heading for the exhaust port. He decides t go out himself and desiding it would seem improper not ot have wing mates grabs the nearest to pilots to accompany him

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-07-17 03:45pm

The AOTC asteroid chase sets a pretty high mark for missile capability. Even if Obi-Wan did not have adequate ECM, the asteroids themselves would be hell for a missile. The fact that the missile maintained its lock on the fighter, even though Obi-wan was weaving between asteroids, suggests that shaking a missile lock is practically impossible (game mechanics aside). So missiles will be hell on the Imperial fighters, regardless of ECM.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-07-17 05:30pm

phongn wrote:I always interpreted Vader launching whatever units were directly under his authority - and I can't see him choosing anything but the best pilots for his missions.

Red Squadon would indeed become Rogue Squadron later, but IIRC there weren't that many elites in there at the time of Endor - especially when some of them were undertaking Operation Human Shield (to protect the torpedo shooters).

You mean at Yavin?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-17 05:33pm

I thought that the Guide to the Death Star (WEG) stated that Vader scrambled his personal squadron at Yavin, if it was just a single squadron they were pretty damned good. 12 fighters against 30 and they blew up quiet a few rebel fighters.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-07-17 08:31pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You mean at Yavin?

Yes