Pompous Asshole on Harry Potter

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-07-11 02:27pm

phongn wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:...and yet JK Rowling is the richest woman in Britain, so I'm sure she doesn't care.
She's richer than the Queen of England now? You kidding?
Rowling is indeed the richest person in the UK.

Only if you consider just the personal fortunes of the royals, the Queen still comes out ahead if you consider the wealth they hold in trust.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-07-11 02:44pm

I remember reading somewhere that Harry Potter was originally intended for an adult audience, and she was surprised by how popular it was with children. I may be mistaken about that though.

I'm all for it regardless--at least the kids are reading.

Sindai · Post by **Sindai** » 2003-07-11 07:54pm

I'm sorry, but anyone who uses the term "loutishness" loses all their talking priviliges forever.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-07-13 11:24pm

Yeah, its too bad this prick is too "grown up" to appreciate other "children's books" like Tom Sawyer, Huckleberry Finn, Catcher In The Rye, Animal Farm, The Bible...

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-07-13 11:49pm

Hmmm... This moron would probably do well as a member of Nokia's N-Gage marketting department, he has the same logic as the moron who implies that anybody who plays the Gameboy is only a little kid (nevermind that the Gameboy makes the rest of the console gaming industry look like little midgets, fucking moron)...

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-07-13 11:57pm

Damn straight, Farce. Golden Sun: The Lost Age is the best RPG I have played in years.

David · Post by **David** » 2003-07-14 12:36am

I read the first two books, and I certainly don't think they were as bad as this guy says. I'll go back to reading them as soon as Harry starts killing people with his magic, or starts getting laid, in other words when it becomes more like main stream adult fantasy and less like a fairy tale. I heard the fourth book was leaning more in that direction, but after reading a review to the fifth it looks like Rowling caved and went back to the fairy tales.

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2003-07-14 02:43am

David wrote:but after reading a review to the fifth it looks like Rowling caved and went back to the fairy tales.

That reviewer is full of horse shit. It's better than the 4th book in the terms that you described. read the books

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-07-14 05:55am

It's just a bitter sack of shit having a good whinge- I don't have any liking for Harry Potter and no desire to read it, but I don't think I want to look down my nose to those who do.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-07-17 08:16pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:But the person is a "legitimate critic". Why would s/he involve themselves with a bunch of "geeks who over-analyze their pop-culture drivel during every waking hour, since they all still live with their parents".

First use of quotations is me talking, second pair is what the person would think of us.

Legitemate critic?

He writes for the fucking Torygraph!

Don't worry yourselves, he'll disappear up his own arsehole soon, like the rest of the UK conservative lot (and good fucking riddance. Have you SEEN them?)

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-07-17 08:27pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:I remember reading somewhere that Harry Potter was originally intended for an adult audience, and she was surprised by how popular it was with children. I may be mistaken about that though.

I'm all for it regardless--at least the kids are reading.

Other way around.

It's aimed a at child audience, and, like The Hobbit, Roald Dahl, etc, proved popular with adults as well.

The fact that it's quite well written has much to do with this.

when it becomes more like main stream adult fantasy and less like a fairy tale.

The Harry Potter stories are better than all mainstream adult fantasy written in the last ten years. Put Together. It's the best work of modern Fantasy created since Sandman finished.

Why? Because they don't steal all of their ideas from either Tolkien or AD&D. They aren't commoditised as fantasy novels, they don't fit the stupidly narrow genre that 'mainstream' fantasy entails.

The modern fantasy genre is stuck at the ass end of nowhere, as everyone thinks they have to build a world like Tolkien, some 'other place' for their fantasical events to happen.

No. Fantasy is what a story makes you feel, not where it happens.

Sindai · Post by **Sindai** » 2003-07-17 09:36pm

Vendetta wrote:The Harry Potter stories are better than all mainstream adult fantasy written in the last ten years. Put Together. It's the best work of modern Fantasy created since Sandman finished.

Why? Because they don't steal all of their ideas from either Tolkien or AD&D. They aren't commoditised as fantasy novels, they don't fit the stupidly narrow genre that 'mainstream' fantasy entails.

The modern fantasy genre is stuck at the ass end of nowhere, as everyone thinks they have to build a world like Tolkien, some 'other place' for their fantasical events to happen.

No. Fantasy is what a story makes you feel, not where it happens.

While I commend you for mentioning Sandman, you're completely insane if you think Harry Potter is less derivative than most adult fantasy.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-07-18 12:40am

Well, HP uses pre-existing fantasy archtypes more creatively.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-07-18 03:20am

Vendetta wrote:
Darth Yoshi wrote:I remember reading somewhere that Harry Potter was originally intended for an adult audience, and she was surprised by how popular it was with children. I may be mistaken about that though.

I'm all for it regardless--at least the kids are reading.

Other way around.

It's aimed a at child audience, and, like The Hobbit, Roald Dahl, etc, proved popular with adults as well.

The fact that it's quite well written has much to do with this.

when it becomes more like main stream adult fantasy and less like a fairy tale.
The Harry Potter stories are better than all mainstream adult fantasy written in the last ten years. Put Together. It's the best work of modern Fantasy created since Sandman finished.

Why? Because they don't steal all of their ideas from either Tolkien or AD&D. They aren't commoditised as fantasy novels, they don't fit the stupidly narrow genre that 'mainstream' fantasy entails.

The modern fantasy genre is stuck at the ass end of nowhere, as everyone thinks they have to build a world like Tolkien, some 'other place' for their fantasical events to happen.

No. Fantasy is what a story makes you feel, not where it happens.

Most English-language adult fantasy, you mean.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-07-18 05:45am

Vendetta wrote: The Harry Potter stories are better than all mainstream adult fantasy written in the last ten years. Put Together. It's the best work of modern Fantasy created since Sandman finished.

Why? Because they don't steal all of their ideas from either Tolkien or AD&D. They aren't commoditised as fantasy novels, they don't fit the stupidly narrow genre that 'mainstream' fantasy entails.

Maybe you should take a look at the "books of magic" graphic novels before you say this. Better yet, read up on mythology. Harry Potter is many things, but a shining beacon of originality it ain't.

The series His Dark Materials is far, far, far beyond HP. I enjoy Rowling's books, but they aren't the literary paragons they're sometimes held as.

Vendetta wrote:The modern fantasy genre is stuck at the ass end of nowhere, as everyone thinks they have to build a world like Tolkien, some 'other place' for their fantasical events to happen.

No. Fantasy is what a story makes you feel, not where it happens.

Interesting. So, by your reckoning, a US budget report could be fantasy if I did some drugs while reading it?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-07-18 10:43am

Thank You Eleas...for the Books of Magic reference(all that's missing is Potter's Owl *speaking* to him). Hell I joke that Rowling just simply took Tim Hunter and renamed him.

I like Potter...but do not consider it some paragon of originality because at the way the protagonist at times just stumbled into victory(or the villain bumbles...take your pick). This alone makes a difference let alone the characters themselves. Most are literally the Hero, his best yet bumbling friend, the kind mentor, the arch nemesis(who has all the advatages in life)...heck I like some of the characters, but they are not original.

It's enjoyable...it is well written for what it is, but it is not something that is going to change the way people think of children's story since they are other stories and works that have done it before. It's primary pull is that it is accessible to many ages, and because of that children don't feel bored nor do most adults who read it. But I doubt most get a sense of profound or epiphany from reading Potter.

All in all an enjoyable diversion...not a revolutionary work.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-07-18 02:37pm

I shall elaborate, because everyone seems to have missed the point.

The problem with modern fantasy is that it's structure and setting is all the same. Every single fantasy work these days has it's own little world, completely divorced from our own, and completely unrecognisable. This is what people have stolen from Tolkien (and Lewis, lest we forget), this is the massive detrimental effect that Tolkien has had on Fantasy literature, his work has created "rules" for fantasy stories, the one genre that should be bound least by rule and convention. (oh, and Eleas, this is not my idea, it's Gaiman's, who wrote the Books of Magic....?).

Everyone writing in modern fantasy has their own little world to play in, every world has it's own rules, it's own society, it's own restrictions on the author. Modern fantasy is as bad a genre to follow as modern comics, because the perception of those who write it, read it, and publish it is that it can only "work" in this one prescribed fashion, so you only get one kind of story.

The Harry Potter stories are fantastical stories, but they <i>don't</i> follow those rules, they show one reality encroaching on, and living around, another, they show something that's happening just beyond the veil of reality, not somewhere deep in the backyard of your imagination, the story and the events are as fantastical as most 'fantasy' fiction, but the people they happen to are people with a grounding in the same world as the reader, people who, in fact, could be your next-door neigbour without you knowing it...

For modern 'mainstream' fantasy (as 'mainstream' as a sidelined genre can be) that's almost unheard of. It's really something more often found in horror fantasy.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-07-18 03:01pm

Vendetta wrote:I shall elaborate, because everyone seems to have missed the point.

The problem with modern fantasy is that it's structure and setting is all the same. Every single fantasy work these days has it's own little world, completely divorced from our own, and completely unrecognisable.

Not true, I'm afraid. Again, I refer you to His Dark Materials, or even to the works of comparative hacks like Terry Brooks. Only the absolute bottom of the barrel, like Robert Jordan and his ilk, slavishly imitate Tolkien.

Vendetta wrote:This is what people have stolen from Tolkien (and Lewis, lest we forget), this is the massive detrimental effect that Tolkien has had on Fantasy literature, his work has created "rules" for fantasy stories, the one genre that should be bound least by rule and convention. (oh, and Eleas, this is not my idea, it's Gaiman's, who wrote the Books of Magic....?).

...but Gaiman's work is derivative, too. He just restricts himself to borrowing concepts from obscure sources.

But your point is a valid one. Fantasy should be devoid of cliched conventions. What you don't see is that most good fantasy is. Good fantasy still exists. Keep on searching.

Vendetta wrote:Everyone writing in modern fantasy has their own little world to play in, every world has it's own rules, it's own society, it's own restrictions on the author. Modern fantasy is as bad a genre to follow as modern comics, because the perception of those who write it, read it, and publish it is that it can only "work" in this one prescribed fashion, so you only get one kind of story.

Again, you're making sweeping generalisations.

Vendetta wrote:The Harry Potter stories are fantastical stories, but they don't follow those rules, they show one reality encroaching on, and living around, another, they show something that's happening just beyond the veil of reality, not somewhere deep in the backyard of your imagination, the story and the events are as fantastical as most 'fantasy' fiction, but the people they happen to are people with a grounding in the same world as the reader, people who, in fact, could be your next-door neigbour without you knowing it...

...just like in Running With the Demon (which, granted, wasn't that good a book), or any book by Tim Powers, or Neverwhere, or most books by Stephen King, or that brilliant Manga series, Blade of the Immortal... there are examples that refute your point.

...which I should think is a good thing for both of us. Like I said, you should keep looking, and you'll find the good stuff.

Vendetta wrote:For modern 'mainstream' fantasy (as 'mainstream' as a sidelined genre can be) that's almost unheard of. It's really something more often found in horror fantasy.

I think you're arguing in a circle. The problem is that the easiest definition of 'mainstream fantasy' is 'Tolkien-inspired fantasy'.

By the way, I really doubt Fantasy is a 'sidelined' genre. In comparison with its brother Sci-Fi, Fantasy is flourishing.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-07-18 03:35pm

Eleas wrote: I think you're arguing in a circle. The problem is that the easiest definition of 'mainstream fantasy' is 'Tolkien-inspired fantasy'.

By the way, I really doubt Fantasy is a 'sidelined' genre. In comparison with its brother Sci-Fi, Fantasy is flourishing.

What I'm saying is that the huge majority of what exists, and nearly all of what sells, is right down at the bottom of the barrel.

Fantasy is a sirelined genre. It has it's own little corner of the bookshop that no-one else goes into. It's sidelined by its very existance as a genre, if you walk into a bookshop you won't be sold a fantasy book. It won't be in the "real mainstream"* of the fiction section, it probably won't be in the bestsellers chart, and the other ninety-five percent of the population will consider it exclusively a children's medium anyway.

*Reference: Real Mainstream - Comics you should be reading. Learn more: http://www.ninthart.com/display.php?article=571

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-07-18 03:43pm

Vendetta wrote:What I'm saying is that the huge majority of what exists, and nearly all of what sells, is right down at the bottom of the barrel.

The sad fact is that you're right. Even though I find Eddings' books pretty cute, they're not on the same map as other authors out there.

Vendetta wrote:Fantasy is a sirelined genre. It has it's own little corner of the bookshop that no-one else goes into. It's sidelined by its very existance as a genre, if you walk into a bookshop you won't be sold a fantasy book. It won't be in the "real mainstream"* of the fiction section, it probably won't be in the bestsellers chart, and the other ninety-five percent of the population will consider it exclusively a children's medium anyway.

Things are not quite as bad here. But on the other hand, I usually go to the SF bookstore if I want to get that stuff. Their selection is better. Still, I haven't found a bookstore yet where I live that doesn't have at least a shelf or two filled with fantasy.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-07-18 04:30pm

Eleas wrote:Things are not quite as bad here. But on the other hand, I usually go to the SF bookstore if I want to get that stuff. Their selection is better. Still, I haven't found a bookstore yet where I live that doesn't have at least a shelf or two filled with fantasy.

This is the point.

Fantasy is cordoned off in a little area of its own, where real people won't be bothered by it.

The Harry Potter books are usually in the mainstream adult fiction section as well.

If 99% of fantasy weren't of exaclt the kind I'm bitching about, that would be the norm. It should be the norm.

I should walk into Waterstones and see The Crow Road right next to The Player Of Games.

But as long as the genre remains so bound by the tradition of epic stories set in wildly different settings, as the HUGE majority of all work in it, that can't happen, because it excludes people.

Fantasy has fallen into the same trap as comics. Produce one genre to appeal to one target audience, and fuck the other 99% of the population.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-07-18 05:20pm

Vendetta wrote:This is the point.

Fantasy is cordoned off in a little area of its own, where real people won't be bothered by it.

The Harry Potter books are usually in the mainstream adult fiction section as well.

If 99% of fantasy weren't of exaclt the kind I'm bitching about, that would be the norm. It should be the norm.

I should walk into Waterstones and see The Crow Road right next to The Player Of Games.

But as long as the genre remains so bound by the tradition of epic stories set in wildly different settings, as the HUGE majority of all work in it, that can't happen, because it excludes people.

Fantasy has fallen into the same trap as comics. Produce one genre to appeal to one target audience, and fuck the other 99% of the population.

Yeah. On the other hand, I kinda like being the odd, persecuted minority. It's such a cool feeling of being a rebel, an outsider, an enlightened one. The intellectual élite, misunderstood geniuses. Like one guy said, "we know better - cause we are better." It's fun.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2003-07-18 06:55pm

On the topic of the writer of that article, I think he sounds like a child trying to look like an adult. I have to wonder if he knows very much about anything he is talking about.

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2003-07-18 11:05pm

OK, I do not like Harry Potter at all, but the guy critizing has a corn cobb in his ass. Its a fantasy book.

As mainstream fantasy goes, Ann Rices novels are a great example of modern day fantasy on the top-seller list every now and then.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2003-07-18 11:14pm

Okay I'll ignore his rant on HP for now... But Lord of the Ring's Drivil....

Lynch Mob time. I'm sorry but this is the MOST pretentious stuck up his own arse, Lunatic I've ever seen. Whether you like Fantasy or not you cannot call LOTR Drivil... it was and is a Work of Art that only comes about very rarely.

On HP and Childrens books, it's a theory, that I hold too that the best Children's books are the ones that capture the attention of Adults as well as Children. His dark materials did that, I read it and loved it. ((Well the Last book is on my list to read still, it's a big list you see... and I have little money)) Harry Potter does it, Rohld Dahl Did it with every single book he wrote just about.

In short where can I send the hit squad?