Rumsfeld aka Ratbastard

[Sea Skimmer]

What're the respective warloads? Typhoon could carry plenty JDAMs, of course.

Typhoon can haul 14,000 pounds and has a major hard point advantage, though each one can only haul a single weapon. F-35 is looking at something like 10000 pounds as I recall, but it carry that it has to throw on the external weapons pylons, which will hold three bombs along with a pair of sidewinders IIRC.

Stealth is a bonus, but when you're stealth, you're not carrying a very meaningful payload anyway (by comparison at least).

When your stealth you don't have to load half your aircraft for SEAD and air to air. Using only the internal weapons bays the F-35 will haul just as many bombs as a typical F-16 mission and with a couple AMRAAMs for self defence. If armed with SDB however it could easily carry a dozen of them internaly.

[Sea Skimmer]

Something I meant to add, a Typhoon costs more then twice as much as the F-35 and should have higher operating costs with twin engines so a direct comparison isn't appropriate. It appears I was mistaken on the F-35 warload, its more like 8000 pounds.

[Crown]

Something I meant to add, a Typhoon costs more then twice as much as the F-35 and should have higher operating costs with twin engines so a direct comparison isn't appropriate. It appears I was mistaken on the F-35 warload, its more like 8000 pounds.

When did I miss the F-35 project actually being announced in definate $ terms?

Either way, one is an air-superiority fighter (in the absense of the F-22)/swing role. The other has been stated won't opperate until the F-22 has achieved air superiority. Although that statement makes you wonder, simply because in Gulf War I, the F-15 (to be replaced with the F-22) just muscled every other plane out of the sky, like the F-16 (to be replaced by the F-35).

[Sea Skimmer]

When did I miss the F-35 project actually being announced in definate $ terms?

Estimated per unit costs for F-35 have been around for some time. The Air force variant is 37 million.

Either way, one is an air-superiority fighter (in the absense of the F-22)/swing role. The other has been stated won't opperate until the F-22 has achieved air superiority.

The F-35 is self-escorting for strike missions and of course can hid very well from fighter radars. That leaves the dedicated fighters, F-22's or more F-35's, free to fly defensives CAP missions and actively hunt down enemy fighters.

Though as I've said the main USAF weapon for air supremacy is simply blowing up all the enemy's bases along with they're controlling air defence network. That gives you Serbia and Gulf I, with only a few aircraft lifting off, wandering around practically at random before being mowed down.

Although that statement makes you wonder, simply because in Gulf War I, the F-15 (to be replaced with the F-22) just muscled every other plane out of the sky, like the F-16 (to be replaced by the F-35).

It helped that we had about two hundred F-15's in the air and maybe twenty fighters came up to meet them, while the Iraqi communications network had just been blown up along with a great many search radars and every major airbase was being struck by at least four sometimes as many as twenty fighters and or attack aircraft. Its fun to have the USAF/USN's and a bunch of other nations resources to throw at one country, virtual attrition of the strike forces becomes irrelevant.

[Vympel]

Estimated per unit costs for F-35 have been around for some time. The Air force variant is 37 million.

Are these the same people that pegged the F-22 as $35 million back in the day?

Double that is an optimistic estimate, IMO.

[Axis Kast]

He's an idiot.. No one can deny that.

Actually, that's entirely a matter of opinion. I seriously doubt that George W. Bush is anything but an intelligent man.

No. It's a blunt declaration from Bush that American troops are not being deterred. It's coming from a man who sits in air-conditioned comfort 24/7, who's life is protected by an entire damn organization, who's every whim is answered. He isn't even wearing a uniform! I don't wish to use a Nazi Analogy, but even Hitler vowed to always wear his Army Uniform until his forces won the war. In short, Bush is severely out of sync with his troops.

Exactly. "It's a blunt declaration from Bush that American troops are not being deterred." It's the commander-in-chief of the force in Iraq. It's the voice and power behind the war.

[Iceberg]

He's an idiot.. No one can deny that.

Actually, that's entirely a matter of opinion. I seriously doubt that George W. Bush is anything but an intelligent man.

An intelligent man who treats politics like a schoolyard brawl, who mangles words that a fifth grader can get right easily, and who commits incredible malapropisms, misquotations and mangled phrases any time he's forced to speak in any way off-script.

Exactly. "It's a blunt declaration from Bush that American troops are not being deterred." It's the commander-in-chief of the force in Iraq. It's the voice and power behind the war.

By a man who is nowhere near the war and is unthreatened by the forces he's encouraging to attack his men.

[Xenophobe3691]

Exactly. "It's a blunt declaration from Bush that American troops are not being deterred." It's the commander-in-chief of the force in Iraq. It's the voice and power behind the war.

Just because he's the one pushing the papers and signing the orders, doesn't mean he's the one going through the rigors and trials that these soldiers are going through. For example, I am a black belt. I worked my ass off to pass that test. If another black belt was to say "It isn't that hard to become a black belt", I wouldn't care. He's gone through it, he knows what he's talking about. If some parent came to me and said that, I would take offense, simple because they haven't gone through it! Experience makes a large difference in people's opinion of things!

[Axis Kast]

An intelligent man who treats politics like a schoolyard brawl, who mangles words that a fifth grader can get right easily, and who commits incredible malapropisms, misquotations and mangled phrases any time he's forced to speak in any way off-script.

I seriously, seriously doubt you yourself could do any better up before a live audience and hundreds of reporters. Actors get to redo their scenes. George W. Bush does not. And if you're going after gaffes, at least be reasonable and assign John F. Kennedy and William J. Clinton similar titles of idiocy. Bush hasn't called himself a creame puff, nor effected the "crying face" of our latest ex-president.

[SirNitram]

An intelligent man who treats politics like a schoolyard brawl, who mangles words that a fifth grader can get right easily, and who commits incredible malapropisms, misquotations and mangled phrases any time he's forced to speak in any way off-script.

I seriously, seriously doubt you yourself could do any better up before a live audience and hundreds of reporters. Actors get to redo their scenes. George W. Bush does not. And if you're going after gaffes, at least be reasonable and assign John F. Kennedy and William J. Clinton similar titles of idiocy. Bush hasn't called himself a creame puff, nor effected the "crying face" of our latest ex-president.

Misunderestimating him?

Seriously. One cannot deny that the man is a friggin' idiot. He mangles the English language, says incredibly stupid things whenever it's not written carefully for him, and delegates things to people who care even less about issues than he does.

[Xenophobe3691]

I seriously, seriously doubt you yourself could do any better up before a live audience and hundreds of reporters. Actors get to redo their scenes. George W. Bush does not. And if you're going after gaffes, at least be reasonable and assign John F. Kennedy and William J. Clinton similar titles of idiocy. Bush hasn't called himself a creame puff, nor effected the "crying face" of our latest ex-president.

I'm sorry, but I can see you have very little experience doing speeches. Even I have next to no experience, and I know that PRACTICING IN FRONT OF A MIRROR HELPS A LOT. This, and even with his legions of political advisors, he cannot speak the English language without butchering it! SirNitram had it right! Misunderestimating sounds like it came out of Willy Wonka's mouth, not our president's!

[Alyrium Denryle]

An intelligent man who treats politics like a schoolyard brawl, who mangles words that a fifth grader can get right easily, and who commits incredible malapropisms, misquotations and mangled phrases any time he's forced to speak in any way off-script.

I seriously, seriously doubt you yourself could do any better up before a live audience and hundreds of reporters. Actors get to redo their scenes. George W. Bush does not. And if you're going after gaffes, at least be reasonable and assign John F. Kennedy and William J. Clinton similar titles of idiocy. Bush hasn't called himself a creame puff, nor effected the "crying face" of our latest ex-president.

I am a stage actor, and skilled at improv. I can easily do a better job.

And JFK did NOT call himself a creme puff. He called himself a jelly filled pastery(sp) there is a difference

And that crying face... Playing to an audience when you arctions dont have an impact on other people is one thing. BUt encouraging armed men to attack our troops while not suffering any direct threat himself is fucked up.

[Alyrium Denryle]

An intelligent man who treats politics like a schoolyard brawl, who mangles words that a fifth grader can get right easily, and who commits incredible malapropisms, misquotations and mangled phrases any time he's forced to speak in any way off-script.

I seriously, seriously doubt you yourself could do any better up before a live audience and hundreds of reporters. Actors get to redo their scenes. George W. Bush does not. And if you're going after gaffes, at least be reasonable and assign John F. Kennedy and William J. Clinton similar titles of idiocy. Bush hasn't called himself a creame puff, nor effected the "crying face" of our latest ex-president.

I am a stage actor, and skilled at improv. I can easily do a better job. I also dont generally mispronounce(miss-spell maybe) simple words, nd can easily pronounce binomial scientific names with a high degree of accuracy.

And JFK did NOT call himself a creme puff. He called himself a jelly filled pastery(sp) there is a difference

And that crying face... Playing to an audience when you arctions dont have an impact on other people is one thing. BUt encouraging armed men to attack our troops while not suffering any direct threat himself is fucked up.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Above post was meant to be an edit....

[Iceberg]

An intelligent man who treats politics like a schoolyard brawl, who mangles words that a fifth grader can get right easily, and who commits incredible malapropisms, misquotations and mangled phrases any time he's forced to speak in any way off-script.

I seriously, seriously doubt you yourself could do any better up before a live audience and hundreds of reporters.

That's the biggest red herring in the world. Whether or not I could do a better performance does not make my criticism of Shrubby's lack of public speaking skills any less valid. George W. Bush is, and that means that his public speaking skills are subject to criticism as would be any other public figure's.

Actors get to redo their scenes. George W. Bush does not.

Stage actors sure as hell don't! You can't back up a stage play if you screw up a line - you have to forge ahead, and damn the mistake. That's why stage actors spend so much time GETTING IT RIGHT. Actors are also trained in extemp and improv, both of which GWB has proven hilariously bad at.

And if you're going after gaffes, at least be reasonable and assign John F. Kennedy and William J. Clinton similar titles of idiocy. Bush hasn't called himself a creame puff,

"Ich bin ein Berliner," accd. to my fiancee, does NOT actually mean "I am a jelly donut," although the words can be translated as that, stripped of context. In context, it means "I feel as if I am from Berlin."

nor effected the "crying face" of our latest ex-president.

What the HELL does that have to do with anything?

[Xenophobe3691]

I am a stage actor, and skilled at improv. I can easily do a better job.

And JFK did NOT call himself a creme puff. He called himself a jelly filled pastery(sp) there is a difference

Thank you, I was confused about the creme puff comment

(To Axis Kast)
Excuse me. He made a mistake. It was in a language HE DIDN"T EVEN SPEAK! Bush fucked up in English!

[Iceberg]

In Kennedy's speech, "Ich bin aus Berlin" would have been a better choice of phrasing, but "Ich bin ein Berliner" is not actually incorrect. Just very casual.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Sorry Iceberg, but you are incorrect.

He could have said, Ich Komme aus Berlin(I come from Berlin)

What he said, was " Ich bin ein Berliner" It used the masculine form of Berliner, wich is a specific type of jelly filled pastry that originated in IICR Berlin.

Ha he said "Ich bin eine Berliner" It uses the feminine form of berliner which means " A citizen of Berlin"

Your German less on for the day

[Alyrium Denryle]

damn typo demons

Edit: Less to Lesson

[Axis Kast]

So, just to be clear, we’re attempting to weigh the intellectual capability of the President of the United States on an arbitrary personal assumption of what kind of oratory skills he should possess? The one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. There is absolutely no conclusive evidence that the gaffes are made out of stupidity rather than the stress of the moment (which would be undeniably considerable given that the presence of hundreds of reporters and live broadcasts are routine). You are making the ultimate irrelevant argument.

[Alyrium Denryle]

He took rhetoric and public speaking classes in Uni I am sure. POLITICIAN. It is his job to speak n front of people. He had been doing it for years. Your nervous system will eventually become accustomed to such stress.

Ok, lets compare his social policies then... That will determine how stupid(or just plain evil) he is.

[Iceberg]

So, just to be clear, we’re attempting to weigh the intellectual capability of the President of the United States on an arbitrary personal assumption of what kind of oratory skills he should possess? The one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. There is absolutely no conclusive evidence that the gaffes are made out of stupidity rather than the stress of the moment (which would be undeniably considerable given that the presence of hundreds of reporters and live broadcasts are routine). You are making the ultimate irrelevant argument.

I'm judging Bush based on the speaking standards of professional theatre companies. There's no way he'd pass audition - his improv speaking skills are too poor.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Thinking there is a bridge between Church and State....

[Axis Kast]

He took rhetoric and public speaking classes in Uni I am sure. POLITICIAN. It is his job to speak n front of people. He had been doing it for years. Your nervous system will eventually become accustomed to such stress.

Neither this argument or those that follow have any bearing on intellectual capacity. The question of whether or not he'd be inducted into a theater troupe is irrelevant to the topic at hand. And his policies might be a matter for debate; they hardly seal your argument that he is stupid.

[Alyrium Denryle]

He has taken classes on public speaking, and has made a career out of it. After even his campaign for Gov of Texas his central nervous system should have adapted to that kind of stressful stimulus. Agrguing that being in front of people is stressful or scary is just plain stupid. If that scared him, he never would have gone into politics.

And generally ones ability to speak is an indicator of intellect... Forming words and communicationg with your fellow humans is a function of brain size, development of the brain, and vocal cord development, and breathing control.