Dismayed Americans contemplate Canada

[Coyote]

Good for them, they are free to go and if they feel they can get a better life where they feel more represented by the culture then I honestly hope they have better lives there.

A lot of sooperleftists want things to be "just like in Canada" so here's the solution. As much as conservatives have things focused too much on the overly-romanticized past, a lot of liberals have their focus on some quasi-Socialist utopia state that is equally unrealistic.

"neoconservatives = Zionists controlling the gov't", Durran? Really.

Shame on you; you do not see my SIG (until it will be be too late!)

[RedImperator]

No, the version he extolled to the world definitely wasn't the one he first came up with.

well, that settles it, noones left marxism alone.

The saying "too many cooks spoil the broth" comes to mind, though in Marxism's case, the "soup" would be a 12 inch turd in a pot of boiling water, so it's pretty hard to "spoil" it.

[Darth Wong]

You know, contrary to popular American opinion, Canada is not "super-leftist". In fact, our ratio of billionaires to regular people is as high as yours. Most of our laws are quite similar to yours. But what we have not done is make dogma out of conservative wanking, the way most neo-cons have in the US.

You can't even argue certain things with these neo-cons. Argue gun issues, and you get the "second amendment guarantees all of the other amendments" bullshit (which has been proven wrong by example in other countries such as Iraq but which is still quoted as indisputable fact). Argue public utilities or public health insurance or public anything, and you get the dogmatic "private industry is always more efficient" knee-jerk retort (even though there are particular conditions in which private industry is not appropriate, such as any case where a service must be provided regardless of the recipient's ability to pay for it). And once these dogma lines come out, nothing you can say will have any effect on him whatsoever, except perhaps to incite him into a flurry of accusations that you are actually a communist.

And of course, there's also the religious issue. Bush's government is the most fundie-friendly government I've seen in a first-world nation. I suppose you could compare him to a typical MidEast Islamic country to find a more favourable comparison, but honestly, if you need to go there to find a good comparison, that says something.

[Coyote]

You know, contrary to popular American opinion, Canada is not "super-leftist".

It is probably more accurate to say that America is more 'rightist' and conservative to the rest of the world; the exception, not the rule.

You can't even argue certain things with these neo-cons. Argue gun issues, and you get the "second amendment guarantees all of the other amendments" bullshit (which has been proven wrong by example in other countries such as Iraq but which is still quoted as indisputable fact).

Well, there were no other "Amendments" or a Constitutional culture in Iraq to compare; suffice to say the Iraqis were probably not owning guns for the same reasons Americans are in their respective historical and social contexts...

Argue public utilities or public health insurance or public anything, and you get the dogmatic "private industry is always more efficient"

It is a rediculous argument. We have the technology and economy to support a public health care system within reason in our country. The only people benefitting now are the incredibly fat insurance companies. The problem with Universal Health Care perceived in America is that Cancer and AIDS patients will vacuum up 90% of the resources and leave piffle for the rest-- the regular folk you're trying to help.

And of course, there's also the religious issue. Bush's government is the most fundie-friendly government I've seen in a first-world nation...

Well, I can't find any way to argue with you on this and to be honest have little interest in trying. Check the religion at the door when entering a government building, please....

[Hamel]

Well, I can't find any way to argue with you on this and to be honest have little interest in trying. Check the religion at the door when entering a government building, please....

Um, try Congress

Recall the little fucktards going all religious and pious on our asses during the pledge debates?

[Joe]

Good for them, they are free to go and if they feel they can get a better life where they feel more represented by the culture then I honestly hope they have better lives there.

A lot of sooperleftists want things to be "just like in Canada" so here's the solution. As much as conservatives have things focused too much on the overly-romanticized past, a lot of liberals have their focus on some quasi-Socialist utopia state that is equally unrealistic.

"neoconservatives = Zionists controlling the gov't", Durran? Really.

Shame on you; you do not see my SIG (until it will be be too late!)

I was just stating the fact that those who are labeled "neoconservative" tend to be Jewish. In no way was I implying that they were Zionists in control of the government (I reject that idea entirely, in fact).

[Steve]

Well, I can't find any way to argue with you on this and to be honest have little interest in trying. Check the religion at the door when entering a government building, please....

Um, try Congress

Recall the little fucktards going all religious and pious on our asses during the pledge debates?

To be expected, but do recall that the Legislature is a different government body to the Administration.

For one thing, I don't think one can completely excise religion from the Congress. It's impossible, and if one did try by doing things like, say, making it unacceptable for a House Rep or Senator to base arguments on Biblical text, one would not keep his or her seat for very long. Especially if one is a Senator. If one's a House Rep, maybe, if the constituents don't go too sour, but you'd be relegated to "kook" status anyway, like a handful of those idiots in the House.

[Coyote]

I was just stating the fact that those who are labeled "neoconservative" tend to be Jewish. In no way was I implying that they were Zionists in control of the government (I reject that idea entirely, in fact).

I'm sorry, Durran, I was teasing you and should have used the 'razz': " " but it was late and I forgot (a few shots of brndy probably didn't help much either). We've both posted enough here to know better than to take that seriously, I apologize.

[Coyote]

... Check the religion at the door when entering a government building, please....

Um, try Congress

Recall the little fucktards going all religious and pious on our asses during the pledge debates?

My point exactly-- the Conservatives want to 'get back to what America was meant to be' but forget that the Founding Fathers had only oblique concepts about religion and did not have a Pledge with "God" in it, or currency with "God" on it at all. True "Conservatives" would be seeking to erase these things, not perpetuate them.

I think it is stupid to have these references, that were put in place due to McCarthyism, on our currency and pledge. The Abortion debate is stupid, too, and religion is a family/personal thing, not a thing for the public schools. Unregulated businesses tend to run roughshod over competition and workers alike, and not enough attention is paid to schools.

Only a few issues keep me leaning more towards the Republicans: Realistic military budgeting; the gun issue; in some areas a more realistic foreign policy (but at the same time mixed in with so much stinking ignorance)... I could go on but in truth both parties suck shit in some ways and are 100% golden in others.

Although both sorely neglect the Space Program, except when they need some PR boost.

[Durandal]

One of the strengths of America is that if you don't like it you're free to leave.

It's too bad that more people don't exercise that option. I hate to say "love it or leave it" to people because it's juvenile, but if you are that unhappy here you should leave.

Or you can exercise your right to free speech and try and change the country for what you believe is the better. If everyone who was unhappy with the country just left, the country would become static and lose diversity, which is the strength of this nation. What you're saying is that the way it is now is the way it should be, and that if people don't like it, they should leave instead of doing their civil duty as Americans and trying to change things via our legislative process which was designed for that kind of thing.

[RedImperator]

I always get prickly when I hear "love it or leave it". It's easy to love something even though you think it's taking the wrong path. If I see my friends or family members fucking up, I try to talk them out of it; why wouldn't I do the same for my country?

[Coyote]

The problem is, as much as you want to "change the system" and make it "better", you are doing exactly what the people on the other side are doing-- from their point of view.

Most anti-abortionists are Fundies and want a religious mandate for Amrica but some of them are actually just motivated to save life because they think it is precious.

Those other people are also doing what they think is needed to make the country better, and to them, you are the dangerous element that is trying to corrupt the ideals of the nation and lead it astray. There are some polarizing issues in the US (as in any country, I guess) that cannot exist side by side, and the struggle will go on forever.

If America lasts long enough, we will see abortion repealed, then reinstated....we'll see universal gun control at some point and then maybe a repeal of that as well. And so on, for all the hot button issues. Each side has diehard partisans who think they carry the true spirit of the country.

Some of these battle will end only if, for some reason, other topics become more important and these somehow become ignored. Hard to imagine, but sometimes..... The cloning, genetics, and privacy issues may well be the ones to take over discourse.

[Durandal]

For one thing, I don't think one can completely excise religion from the Congress. It's impossible, and if one did try by doing things like, say, making it unacceptable for a House Rep or Senator to base arguments on Biblical text, one would not keep his or her seat for very long. Especially if one is a Senator. If one's a House Rep, maybe, if the constituents don't go too sour, but you'd be relegated to "kook" status anyway, like a handful of those idiots in the House.

That's unfortunately true, for the foreseeable future. It certainly doesn't help that Congress has been opening its sessions with a prayer from the very first session. Why the Framers allowed that to get by is beyond me, especially when people like Ben Franklin had such a vocal distaste for Christianity.

[Joe]

First-trimester abortions will never be illegalized. The fundies can pack their fucking bags.

[Durandal]

One of the strengths of America is that if you don't like it you're free to leave.

Tell that to the Confederacy.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Shame on you; you do not see my SIG (until it will be be too late!)

Dammit! I left one of the Jewish Banker's cages unlocked.

[Iceberg]

I always get prickly when I hear "love it or leave it". It's easy to love something even though you think it's taking the wrong path. If I see my friends or family members fucking up, I try to talk them out of it; why wouldn't I do the same for my country?

I believe that the US is traveling down the wrong path, that's why I'm staying around to try to fix it. I think that perpetual war is the wrong path for America, especially if we're going to start "preempting" threats (read here: attacking countries that have not and do not have the ability to do anything to us).

[Darth Wong]

For one thing, I don't think one can completely excise religion from the Congress. It's impossible, and if one did try by doing things like, say, making it unacceptable for a House Rep or Senator to base arguments on Biblical text, one would not keep his or her seat for very long. Especially if one is a Senator. If one's a House Rep, maybe, if the constituents don't go too sour, but you'd be relegated to "kook" status anyway, like a handful of those idiots in the House.

That's unfortunately true, for the foreseeable future. It certainly doesn't help that Congress has been opening its sessions with a prayer from the very first session. Why the Framers allowed that to get by is beyond me, especially when people like Ben Franklin had such a vocal distaste for Christianity.

When you look at Thomas Jefferson's incredibly acrimonious election campaign which has been described by many as the most vicious and brutal in American history (yes, including the recent ones), you will understand. They pushed as hard as they could to keep religion off the government map without being forced out of power.

[Sobbastchianno]

I want to go abroad if neo-conservatives keep gaining power....

The Jewish conservatives, you mean.

Strange, I am Jewish, and most Jewish people I know, and I know a good many more that you do I suspect, are actually Liberal and Democrat in voting and in thought. Unlike Christians, they do not carry their religious conservatism over into their politics.

[Sobbastchianno]

For one thing, I don't think one can completely excise religion from the Congress. It's impossible, and if one did try by doing things like, say, making it unacceptable for a House Rep or Senator to base arguments on Biblical text, one would not keep his or her seat for very long. Especially if one is a Senator. If one's a House Rep, maybe, if the constituents don't go too sour, but you'd be relegated to "kook" status anyway, like a handful of those idiots in the House.

That's unfortunately true, for the foreseeable future. It certainly doesn't help that Congress has been opening its sessions with a prayer from the very first session. Why the Framers allowed that to get by is beyond me, especially when people like Ben Franklin had such a vocal distaste for Christianity.

When you look at Thomas Jefferson's incredibly acrimonious election campaign which has been described by many as the most vicious and brutal in American history (yes, including the recent ones), you will understand. They pushed as hard as they could to keep religion off the government map without being forced out of power.

And with Bush's "faith based initiatives" he is undoing so much of that. This supposed initiative is already causing problems with employment laws in this country concerning companies and agencies who receive federal money having to abide by federal employment regulations where discrimination is concerned.

Personally, I don't think that ONE CENT of government money (our money) should be going to ANY faith based organization, period. I don't care what kind of good works they do. It is not that I think the government is more efficient, because I don't, but I do believe that this comes way too close to that line we are supposed to have separating church and state.

As for the "love it or leave it" sentiment. I am old enough to have heard that ad nausium during the latter portion of the Viet Nam war. I agree with previous assessments that, to paraphrase, state that part of loving something is correcting it when it is going wrong.

If I had a partner, I would likely be VERY tempted to move to Canada. Climate is not an issue, I was raised in New Hampshire. However, I am single, a first generation American (my father was from Scotland and my mother from the Georgian Republic, both became United States Citizens). Why should I leave? I was born here and I have just as much right to be here as anyone else born here.

Change is the one thing of which we can all be certain. I believe for anyone to be disenfranchised in this country is wrong (and don't try to tell me we all have equal rights and footing, because we don't).

[Coyote]

Oddly enough it seems that many of the West Jews are still knee-jerk Liberal (most of the ones here in Boise are) but back East they tend to get more and more Conservative. It is the opposite of th erest of the populac, which gets more conservative as it goes West until hitting the Left Coast.....

[Sobbastchianno]

Oddly enough it seems that many of the West Jews are still knee-jerk Liberal (most of the ones here in Boise are) but back East they tend to get more and more Conservative. It is the opposite of th erest of the populac, which gets more conservative as it goes West until hitting the Left Coast.....

All of the Jews I mentioned knowing, including myself, actually come from New England (though, I am a resident of Houston, TX now). Though I know there was no harm mean in your statement, this again shows how generalizations are dangerous. It is, as with most all things, on an individual basis.

[Col. Crackpot]

So, we ship our ignorant lefty ideologues to Canada, further perpetuation the stupid American sterotype. As if the ignorant conservative ideologues weren't doing enough damage abroad. Why can't whe ship them to a country they can't fuck up...like Turkmenistan or Sri Lanka?

[Wicked Pilot]

One of the strengths of America is that if you don't like it you're free to leave.

Tell that to the Confederacy.

I was refering to the individual physically leaving the U.S. and setting up shop somewhere else. Our freedom to choose what nation we'd like to be a part of is capitalist in a way. The free nation with the better system will attract the other nations' best and brightest. One can say that is how we got our greatness. It is also how we may lose it.

[kojikun]

Another strength of the US (or former strength..) is that we have the ability
to change it, be it through voting or through arms.

The Decleration of Independence says, "...That whenever any Form of
Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People
to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its
foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to
them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

But they don't mean just the right, they mean that it is the DUTY of a people
to abolish a wrong and injust government. Thats what we were founded on,
the ideal that the people must unite as a single force against the wrongs of
the world, and in a single unified movement set right all that they mean to.
It is our responsibility to change our country, not just to passively live in it.