An Open Challenge to Everyone, both Pro Trek and Pro Wars

[Solauren]

An Open Letter and Challenge to the denizens of Star Destroyer.net

Before I get doing, this is not a challenge to a debate, or an attempt to star a flame war or anything like that. Nor is this meant to be a form of trolling.

Now then…

Since the release of ‘Incredible Cross Sections’ for ‘Star Wars: Attack of the Clones’, most ‘reasonable’ and ‘intelligent’ people have declared Star Wars the winner of the Star Wars vs Star Trek debate. At least, Star Wars wins from a military/conflict stand-point when going by official numbers for Star Wars, and ‘best-guestimate’ OR the published (albeit unofficial) numbers for Star Trek.

The only people that seem to be arguing blindly or entirely in Star Trek’s favor are people connected to the franchise, related venue looking to keep sales and attendance up, ‘rabid’ fans who’s interest borders on obsessive-compulsive, the uninformed, ignorant, or those that simply like to cause problems (for example).

I have no doubt the ‘exotic technology’, literary and perhaps cinematography debates will rage on for a long time.

First, let me congratulate Star Wars on winning. Yeah Star Wars!

However, there is a certain degree of hostility and negativity still on the Internet, and in ‘real life’ situations arising from this debate.

Now, most of the more ‘level-headed’ and intelligent Star Trek fan's (and they do exist, like me for example), have conceded the military debate. The primary, intelligent-esque debating is usually smaller, semi-realistic scenarios or smaller point of the issue for the sack of fun. Examples include

Major Kira of Deep Space Nine versus Padme Amidaala in a fist fight?
Who is a better diplomat between Luke Skywalker and Captain Jean Luc Pichard of The Next Generation?
Could the force affect natives of the Star Trek galaxy and if so to what degree?
Who would win in a belching contest between Worf and a Wookie?

These debates are usually enjoyed by all, regardless of favoritism of either franchise, provided no ‘topic hijacking’ or completely moronic trolling occurs.

Indeed, scenario’s with female character fighting/interacting are generally some of the most popular. Interestingly enough, they usually degenerate into lesbian fan-fic idea exchange sessions, but that is not the point. (Also, it should be noted that most legal-age female-female fiction/sci-fi/fantasy fight discussions on the internet turn into lesbian fan-fic idea sessions)

Those that have decided to continue the debate from a purely/largely military stand point have instead moved on to finding new and innovative ways for Star Trek to combat Star Wars. Usually it comes down to ways for the Good guys from Star Trek, the United Federation of Planets, to defend against the bad guys from Star Wars, The Galactic Empire.

This includes new uses for technology, or new ideas and variations of existing technology. Examples include;
Using the infamous Genesis Device on unprotected Imperial worlds and starships
Phasing cloaks
Weapons that cause stars to explode (‘protomatter’ and ‘Trilithium’)
Other devices of the ‘technobabble’ that is a visible component of the Star Trek franchise, as well as obscure ‘one episode wonders’ like the Planet Killer from the Original series.

When faced with an enemy with overwhelming firepower or superior numbers, this is a good idea.

Basically, Star Wars versus Star Trek has come down to a guerrilla war, and usually within Star Trek territory.

Now, this is where the challenge comes into play.

Most of the ‘canon’ Star Trek technology and possible tactical options, to one degree or another, have been examined. If not, shame on Star Trek debaters. Get out those tapes and episode summaries and get to work!

Anyway…

I would like to challenge everyone on this board with the spare time and inclination, to sit down with Star Trek material above and beyond the movies and television shows, so we could include specific novels into the debate. Why? To give Star Trek more of a fighting chance. It’s not the fan’s fault the corporation behind Star Trek is not interested in consistency of the novels with the series, or even including the novels into ‘canon’.

Now, before an uproar comparable to the reaction to the topic name of this thread, let me explain.

I am suggesting going over the entire Star Trek literary franchise, which I know is non-canon but hold on, looking for technology and tactics, no matter how unfeasible and, as a pro-Star Wars website, find reasonable and realistic ways to bring them into the Star Wars vs Star Trek debate. Why? In order to 'breath new life' into it. This would have the double-effect of breathing life into the debate, as well as being a show of ‘no-hard-feelings’ to the more sensible segments of the Star Trek community (i.e NOT DarkStar). If might also serve as the ultimate slap in the face to some of the more ‘innane’ Star Trek debators, (like DarkStar) but hey, that’s just a perk.

Now then, such an undertaking, given the widely divergent and sometimes contradictory contains and nature of some of the Star Trek novels, needs rules. Here is what I would like to propose.

Any display of firepower, speed, power generation, or technology use that directly and/or flatly contradicts on-screen Star Trek information is considered ‘invalid’ and simply poor research on the behalf of the author. (Unless some kind of reasonable spatial phenomena helped out that we could pick apart to figure out how it works).

I speak off course of novels that would indicate existing Star Trek warp drives have speeds capable of letting Voyager return from the Delta Quadrant in two weeks, using a few phasers and some technobabble to crack planets, and other such problems. These would still be looked at off course and could be put into a ‘falacy’ list, or a ‘Would be useful but..’ list or even 'Trek would do well in this author's version of the Star Trek universe' list. etc

I would purpose we do this

Everyone takes a novel (or two or three..) and goes over it, looking for technology that existed or could be duplicated at the end of the novel, as well as species and planet names. Too compare:
The Genesis Device from the movies/novels could probably be duplicated again, as it was created by Federation/Federation supported scientists. Regula-1 would be a new planet/star system within Federation space, as would the Mutara sector. We have no ‘real world’ references as to where this planet/sector could be however. It appears to be within a few days ‘at most’ from the Klingon/Federation Neutral zone, given that a Cloaked Klingon Bird of Prey made it from the neutral zone to the Mutara sector without obvious problems, and in what appeared to be less then two days on the Genesis planet.

The super-race weapons from Star Trek The Next Generation Novel #5: Strike Zone, COULD NOT be duplicated, as the primary Star Trek characters (Pichard and crew) couldn’t even scan the weapon sample they had, much less figure the weapon out. At the end of the book, the weapon even shatters open to reveal there was nothing inside.

Off course, a better setup would be needed. Like this. (Please note, I’m doing this from memory)

As a matter of fact, these are my first contributions to the endeavor. If I get more Star Trek books (ya never know), I'll add in more myself.

Movie Title: Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Kahn
Stardate Range: NO idea
New Technology:
The Genesis Device: Capable of transforming barren/inert planets into habitable planets. Also works on other environments, and destroys the life on a habitable planet to create the new one.
Technology Revelations:
TOS-Movie Era Starship Shield and Sensor limitation: Sensors and Shields are useless within a nebula.
All TOS-Movie Era Starfleet ships have what would appear to be a ‘back-door-password’ that can be used to lower there shields and affect other systems by remote.
New Starship Class: Reliant (NCC-XXXX).
Interesting Note: The Mutara Sector, which contains Regula-1 and the Mutara Nebula, is not very far from Earth. The enterprise traveled there without difficulty with trainee’s as the crew.

Movie Title/Novel Title: Star Trek 3: The Search for Spock (Novelization as well)
Stardate Range: NO idea
New Technology: Protomatter, a substance every ethical scientist has denounced as ‘dangerously unpredictable’
Technology Revelations:
The Genius device uses protomatter. Because of this, the only planet created with this was unstable and eventually ‘self-destructed’
New Ship Class: Klingon Bird of Prey
Interesting Note: Both the Klingon-Federation Neutral Zone and Earth are not far from the Mutara Sector, as both reaches it from there respective starting locations in less then a day. (On screen movie evidence)


I have three Star Trek TNG novels I will add to this list if things get off the ground (Survivors, Strike Zone, Exiles)

Is anyone interested in taking up this challenge? I'm not asking you to read bad novels, just if you have any, or know of anyone with some, that you have read or could stand reading (I tried reading 'peacekeepers' and could barely get through it), we might be able to give Star Trek more of a chance, and even make it more of a challenge for the Empire (cake-walks make for bad stories and games)

Heck, if Darth Wong likes the idea, he could even put up an 'Alternate Universe' section on the Main site for expanded options Star Trek could have if Paramount wasn't so damn lazy over canon policy, etc.

Thoughts? Replies? Ass-Kicking threats?

If you want to reply privatelyt to me, so we could do something like this 'off sight', that's fine.

[Howedar]

The Star Trek novels are generally not consistent with the show, each other, or even themselves. There's a reason they're as canon as a shitstain.

[Solauren]

Oh, I know that. (actually, the ones I have read are faily consistant. They don't go into numbers...)

I'm just saying 'Why not?' we could come up with consistent stuff to reflect the events. Just a thought, since alot of people here are fairly good at stuff like this.

No one up to the challenge?

[Cyborg Stan]

We might take you more seriously if you can demonstrate it yourself.

Or not.

[Darth Wong]

Wow, what a great idea! As long as we're going to include material which has no official status in the timeline and no enforcement of inter-story continuity or consistency whatsoever, why don't we start including fanfics too?

[Stravo]

Wow, what a great idea! As long as we're going to include material which has no official status in the timeline and no enforcement of inter-story continuity or consistency whatsoever, why don't we start including fanfics too?

I'm all for that!

[Connor MacLeod]

I realize that some of you newcomers to the debates may be scrambling to find some way to keep the corpse alive, but forget it. Its over, and dead. Move onto something else, okay?

[Solauren]

Fair Enough

Novel Name: Star Trek The Next Generation #5: Strike Zone
Stardate Range: Unknown/Not States. Dr. Pulaski was onboard, and it is literally just after Riker grew the beard.
New Technology: No Federation

Technology Revelations:
Klingon battlecruisers carry enough firepower to decimate a planet.
Note: This is subjective and is not shown.

Klingon Revelations:
Klingon Warriors usually carry a number of concealed weapons on their body, at least 10, beyond Hand Phasers and Disruptors. These weapons can include: Blasters, Knives, Daggers, Throwing Stars, Garrotes.
There are 6 types of poison that are popular with Klingon Assassins. There are also 137 more poisons that Klingon Assassins use but that are not as popular.
One of the characters, a half-human/Klingon male dwarf was one of the architects of the Klingon-Federation Alliance. He is shorter then Will Riker’s waste level, and one of the oldest living klingons on record.
Klingons are able to survive some massive injuries and keep going. Example: One Klingon warrior had his eye sock and eye ruined when a throwing star was ‘headbutted’ into him, including rapid blood loss.
Names are massively important to Klingons. High ranking Klingons are able to ‘remove someone’s name’, this is even worse then Dis-commidation in many ways, as legally, that nameless Klingon has no name and is never spoken directy of. Their accomplishments may also be wiped from Klingon records, or assigned to others.
It is a great honor to have a title, even 'Honorable' added to a Klingons name. The Emperor's name is never spoke to him directly. The highest name honor a Klingon can have is to have his unique title, if any, used instead of his name.
Klingon's never respond immediately to an underlings request for there attention except in emergency or battle situations

Worf Revelations
Work is strong enough to effortless snap the neck of most humanoids.

Transporter Revelations
If the transporter is on a continuous beam, anything matter sent into it is beamed, even if it is part of a larger object. For example:
A kreel fell into the transporter beam. Only it’s head and shoulders were in the beam. The transporter beams just the head and shoulders, killing the Kreel

New Species: Kreel, Warp Capable, but appear to be below ENTERPRISE series level technology. Ship armaments are light-pulse cannons. Hand weapons are Sonic based Disruptors that shake target matter apart. The Kreel apparently have territory that borders Klingon Space and is near Federation space.
Kreel society is rather barbaric even by Klingon standards. Kreel freely admit to rape and dissections of aliens, especially in front of people that would be offended. They also swear during ship to ship communications with other races.
Example: One kreel commented how a female Klingon reminded him of one he had raped, in front of a group of 12 Klingon’s in uniform, as well as several members of the Enterprise bridge crew, while acting as the head of a diplomatic mission.

New Technology:
Sonic Hand Guns, called Disruptors. Capable of firing in ‘pulses’ or sustained continuous fire. Power level appears comparable to a TOS/ENTERPRISE Hand Phaser. Able to shatter rocks quickly once the proper frequency level is reached.
Light pulses. Kreel light-pulses don't even posse a threat to Enterprise-D's shields

New Species: Selelvian.
Live approximately 200 years
Federation members or Federation allies. Civilians can be found on Federation Ships (i.e Enterprise-D)
Physical characteristics remind Star Trek humans of Elves (possibly JRR Tolkien elves)
Telepathic ability: ‘The Knack’ can prioritize a target humanoids emotions, strengthen and weakening them. The example on board the Enterprise used this ability on Deanna Troi and nearly had her in bed, if Will Riker hadn’t interrupted. Only humanoids with a weak-sense of self (i.e self-doubting at the time, distracted, or not mentally prepared for it) are affected by this.

New Species: Cognoscente
Note: Uninvolved Species, like Q and Negulam. Claims to have been testing humans for centuries.
When the Enterprise-D refused their offer to guidance, they withdrew to there own realm. There technology let them build incredibly massive cities and starships the size of Class-M planets.
Observation: May have been involved in the creation of humans. May or may not be the species known as the Preservers.

New Planets: Daedalus IV (Federation Colony)
Possible new planets: Kreel, Selelvia

[Solauren]

to Darth Wong's reply:

It's an idea. Nothing more. No fan-fics, just published stuff we could say 'Too Bad Paramount doesn't make this offical, you might have a better chance'

[Alyeska]

Wow, what a great idea! As long as we're going to include material which has no official status in the timeline and no enforcement of inter-story continuity or consistency whatsoever, why don't we start including fanfics too?

Give me a break Mike. The plain truth of the matter is already evident. This is just an alternate way to look at the debates and throw a little life into it. This isn't the canon ST vs SW, its an expanded way of looking at the debates. Much like some take elements from series such as Starfleet Battles or Starfleet Command rather then the canon series.

[Solauren]

Thank you. That's what I mean.

I'm not saying add in something from the novels to the 'canon' debate. Heck no, that would be a bad idea. Cause then you have people going nuts beyond anything, and the whole thing turning into a wank-fest beyond recovery.

I know the novel continuality is basically shit (allthough I have seen and read a few that insert into the TV seres nicely. Like #3 Survivors, it's set before Tasha's death, and covers a 1 week span. It gives so much into Tasha's background that I'd love to see it become canon. Strike Zone, Exiles and Q-in-Law all fit in nicely, and they don't include power levels that are insane or wrong)

If the novels are shit to some, let's try to turn it into fertilizer and grow something

Alyeska: Know anyone that might be interested?
Darth Wong: Not up to the challenge? I must say, I'm surprised.

[Striderteen]

I'm interested.

I seem to recall skimming a Trek book from the Ricketts House library that featured a prototype TOS-era "dreadnaught" -- while ostensibly a deterrence peacekeeper, it was basically a straight-out warship with heavy weapons, triple shielding and some kind of energy-dispersing armor. The dreadnaught managed to (with some help from Kirk and the Enterprise) take on three Federation heavy cruisers and a destroyer and come out victorious, even though it was manned by a skeleton crew of almost totally untrained ensigns who were barely able to figure out how to get it to work.

[Darth Wong]

Darth Wong: Not up to the challenge? I must say, I'm surprised.

Don't try to paint this as some kind of personal inadequacy, asshole. You can't analyze something which does not even make a half-hearted effort at self-consistency. I'm sick of dipshits lik.e you who try to bait me personally in order to inflate the importance of their bullshit.

[Striderteen]

Darth Wong: Not up to the challenge? I must say, I'm surprised.

Don't try to paint this as some kind of personal inadequacy, asshole. You can't analyze something which does not even make a half-hearted effort at self-consistency. I'm sick of dipshits lik.e you who try to bait me personally in order to inflate the importance of their bullshit.

Sounded like more of an honest "what-if" scenario; he doesn't seem to be arging that the novels should be treated as canon Trek. More along the lines of "Canon Trek looses, conceeded. If we expanded Trek to include everything else, might there be some combination of one-shot technologies that might give the Federation a chance?"

[Darth Wong]

Sounded like more of an honest "what-if" scenario

With some clear baiting thrown in.

he doesn't seem to be arging that the novels should be treated as canon Trek. More along the lines of "Canon Trek looses, conceeded. If we expanded Trek to include everything else, might there be some combination of one-shot technologies that might give the Federation a chance?"

Same question remains: how do you analyze the new expanded set of evidence when it was not written with even a half-hearted attempt at consistency?

[Solauren]

Sounded like more of an honest "what-if" scenario

With some clear baiting thrown in.

he doesn't seem to be arging that the novels should be treated as canon Trek. More along the lines of "Canon Trek looses, conceeded. If we expanded Trek to include everything else, might there be some combination of one-shot technologies that might give the Federation a chance?"

Same question remains: how do you analyze the new expanded set of evidence when it was not written with even a half-hearted attempt at consistency?

Actually, it wasn't meant as baiting. I just thought it was something you'd find interesting and challenging. If it's not something your interested in doing, then why bait you? If you decided to because of baiting, that is rather pointless. It's like getting a girl drunk to sleep with her. Sure, amussing at the time, but in the long run, not satisfying to anyone with a shred of deciency.

I'm suggested looking at the novels and/or novel arcs individually, and then maybe looking at them as a collective.

Okay, here's an example of what I mean. There is a novel called Q-in-Law. It has a Romeo and Juliet plot between two powerful 'houses' from an alien race, but in this case, the love is embraced by the families. The enterprise is to host the wedding, and Lwanna Troi is sent as the Betazed representative. Q shows up, and well, you can imagine what happens then.
No numbers are given, but a couple of interesting revelations are given about the Federation, and stuff about this new race.
i.e Wesley shows the bridal couple a few places in the holodeck they could use as the setting for the wedding, and one of them is the Genesis planet, and Wes offers to explain why it's not around to them after they find a wedding site. (Ever heard of TOP SECRET and CLASSIFIED Wes?) Also, they have a reception on the holodeck where the walls, floor and ceiling are covered in a starfield, but with the lack of air and gravity removed so you can dance across space.

if numbers were given, or something 'Trek-Impossible' happened (I heard someone once mention the Enterprise using it's Phasers to blow a planet up like the Death Star), that would go into a section outside the 'reasonable stuff'

The holodeck stuff, Wesley's big mouth about Genesis, and the stuff about the new race: Useful.
Q and Mrs. Troi having a Waltz in space in front of the Enterprise-D: Interesting but useless.
The enterprise suddenly blowing up planets: Outside demonstarted realm of Trek abilities. Useful if they could. THIS version of Trek stands a chance.

And if we wanted to add that into a larger 'NON-CANON' debate, well, the Stuff that is not outside the Realms of Trek abilities could be, with the garbage going into the appropriate location.

i.e Does anyone know about the X-Men/Star Trek TNG cross-over? I heard it was terrible, and made the Enterprise look so pathetic, it wasn't even funny. (Come on, you'd think something capabile of orbital bombardment would do better in dealing ground forces then Wolverine and Archangel). That novel would largely go into the trash pile.

In the end, it would be an attempt to see if it's possible. An Experiment. I admit, it could be a big waste of time, but it might not be either. I for one see nothing wrong with trying. The novel I detailed out, Strike Zone, doesn't run against know Trek history or abilities. All it would do if included into the debates is add another name to the people behind the Klingon-Federation alliance (not unreasonable, they probably had a lot of people involved in that), and a new race with limited technology floating around near the Klingons. Oh, and another uninvolved race that would look on and go "Poor Starfleet'

Anyway, Darth Wong, one thing I wish to point out to you.
Some of canon Trek is inconsistent. (Voyager comes to mind), but it's still canon, and you did consider it in making this site. It might be possible to do the same with the novels. Notice the *MIGHT*. I'm just seeing if there is anyone up to trying. I only have a few of the novels (5 readable, 1 lost, and 3 I haven't bothered with because the plot is unrealistic) so I can't do it alone. Others might want to try it. Sure, this might be something better to see about getting doing on StarTrek.com, but I don't want a bunch over over-enthusastic nut-case fanboy's Trekies like Darkstar and the like doing it and probably screwing up. I'd prefer to get reasonable Star Trek fans like the ones I've seen on the board that are not just trolling. (Stravo comes to mind, as does Happytarget. No other names stick out at me to me at the target)

And again, I apologize if I seem like I was baiting. I honestly didn't think it could be taking that way. To me, baiting you would have been saying 'Ah, Poor Darth Wong! He's scared that he can't handle it! Boo hoo!'

My surprise came from the fact that, to me, based on what I have seen and know of you, that it might be something you'd be interested in IF it was done correctly with some rules and guidelines.

I just haven't cooked up the rules in detail yet cause as of right now, the total interested count consists of me, and maybe 2 or 3 others. Hardly enough for something like this.

However, if you would like me to, Lord Wong, I'll cook up the rules and even a common format to show what I mean. That might be a way to show you I'm not trying to bait or redo the debate. 'What-if' scenario, nothing more.

Kinda like the Star Wars 'Infinities' and the X-men 'What-if's'.

[TurboPhaser]

Darth Wong: Not up to the challenge? I must say, I'm surprised.

Don't try to paint this as some kind of personal inadequacy, asshole. You can't analyze something which does not even make a half-hearted effort at self-consistency. I'm sick of dipshits lik.e you who try to bait me personally in order to inflate the importance of their bullshit.

Jeez, give him a break! He's just trying new ideas, and an interesting one it is too. So far he's about the only one who has contributed to this thread, and he does not deserve to be abused for it.

Star Trek and Star Wars canon contradicts itself at some point, so what if the novels do to. He is not expecting you to include novels in debates outside this thread, just to include them here. Wheres the harm.

[NecronLord]

The only canonical Trek novel is the novelisation of TMP (Written by rodenberry, and with a foreword that says it over-rules the visuals and TV series), so I may as well do that.

'Hyperspace' exists in Trek, Warp drive sort of skims 'hyperspace.'

Biobeds can scan to the molecular level.

Scotty was already in the process of undoing that godawful phaser upgrade.

2 Mt established for Photon Torpedoes (One frags an asteroid that was nickel - iron and the size of a planet.)

Vejur was attacked early in it's life by an agressive alien species. It destroyed their homeworld.

[Ghost Rider]

Jeez, give him a break! He's just trying new ideas, and an interesting one it is too. So far he's about the only one who has contributed to this thread, and he does not deserve to be abused for it.

One, you don't challenge a person by saying he's a coward...in a thinly vield statement at the end of a rant. That's being an asshole and asking to be reamed. If they don't WANT to particpate, goading them foolishly is not the way to do it. Plus doing it in his own backyard is a piss-poor way of trying.

Star Trek and Star Wars canon contradicts itself at some point, so what if the novels do to.

Would you care to back that statement up with examples of canon contradicted itself?

[Colonel Olrik]

A few ST books are very good. The last I bought was the Dead Zone duology, and it was excellent. I'd like to see them discussed more in the ST forum.

[Solauren]

Hi Everyone.
I orginally wrote this specifically to and for mike while I was at work, but I decided to post it hear, out in the open, to save parotting myself later.
That, and I tried to log in to the board from work to send a private message to Mike, and I forgot my password and got locked out. Go figure.
Anyway…

Darth Wong/ Mike.

First, I apologize if I appear to have been baiting you. More then likely, my words were poorly chosen.

As a matter of fact, I’m sure of it. I have a history of doing that.
i.e the Time I wanted to help a female friend out, and it came out sounding like I was sleeping with her and had fathered her kid. Unfortunately, the person that thought it sounded that way was my girlfriend, and that was a lot of damage control.

With that all said and done, I apologize for not beeing clearer in and with my thread/idea, including appearing to bait you. If I wanted to bait you, I would have just came out and dared you to allow it and give it your support/blessing. Considering how many people you probably get hate-mailing you and making rude statements and trying to bait you, doing ‘I’m surprised’ probably does seem like baiting.

When I said “I’m surprised” it was honest surprised, not a bait attempt. The impression I get of you is that you would enjoy doing what I am proposing.
In much the same way I would be surprised if someone that liked apples didn’t like apple pie. Or If someone that likes Gilligan’s Island didn’t like an episode that was voted ‘Funniest of all Time’ or something like that.
In short, that is my fault, and I apologize. I ‘mis-spoke’ for lack of a better term. I keep forgetting that people can’t hear sincerity online. A few messages that might have been read in a thread is not enough to know someone’s personality and intentions. For all you knew, I had been ‘being nice’ on the board in preparation for a surprise attack or something. Some people might say you over-reacted, and they are entitled to their opinion. In my mind, after consideration, I screwed up and you reacted according to what you knew of me, and the situation.

Anyway, here is what I have in mind for my ‘Star Trek novels’ idea. Time to clear this up as well.

You see, the challenge isn’t to ‘do it’, it’s ‘Can it be done?’

Novels will be analyzed individually. If the novel is part of a story-arc, after each novel is analyzed, the arc itself would be looked at if need be.
After books are looked at whole in-universe, they will be looked at compared to ‘canon’ trek. Can they be inserted without problem? If not, they will be noted as such.
i.e The books William Shatner wrote that are ‘cross-series’, with the Borg and Romulans bringing Kirk back from the dead to destroy the Federation, AFAIK, runs against the established rules of Trek. The entire novel would be noted as such, but still will go onto the next stage
Any books that can be ‘corrected’ to canon-Trek standards would be. I.e the above William Shatner novel probably can’t, but the novel ‘Exiles’ could probably be fit in nicely.

All books that do not massively contradict canon-Trek and can be fit into the canon-Trek timeline could be in a ‘Primary Alternate Universe’ timeline. We would then use this timeline and these novels to construct a ‘What-if-scenario-Star Trek’. Or someone could. I might actually enjoy doing that.
(A side effect of running Dungeons and Dragons games and making dungeons for characters to go trash. Build up a massive dungeon, and then take pride as your players tear it apart.)
We can now do a analysis of if the Empire fought this universe. The UFP might be able to hold out longer, or it could be even more of a steam-roller by the Empire.

Novels that can’t be fit into this version of the UFP could be, if anyone wanted to, look at to see if they can be fit into other ‘What-if’s’. I.e if 20 novels seem to have the same problems, i.e Weapon ranges of 1,000,000 kilometers, Terraton level weapons, etc, they could be put into ‘Alternate-novel universe 2’
This one would be looked at for a cross-over scenario. Might be a cake-walk for the Empire, or it could end in a stalemate, or for all we know, this What-IF scenario could result in a successful-counter invasion of the Empire.

Any that could not be fit into a timeline (or where the timeline would be one story arc or only 4 or 5 novels) would be looked at in those small groups, and probably not in very much detail unless someone offered to do so.

The idea is to find out. Kinda like climbing the mountain ‘because it’s there’.

Now, something like this would off course need structure and rules, just like the canon debate does in order for there to be an actual winner and it not get down to ‘Would not, Would too’

So, here is a ‘form’ for this to follow. I filled in fake info. I’m at work waiting for my boss to get here so I can get the info I need today. It was supposed to be on my desk when I got here.. anyway…

Name of Book: Far from home
Series: Voyager
Publisher of Book Pocket Books
Book number 145
Author Kate Mulgrew
Staring Star Date, if given: None
Eariest Star Date, if none is given in the opening chapters: None
Ending Star date, if given: Ends with the start of Voyager TV episode 2
Major event noted and time from if no star dates given: Starts 1 day after Voyager departs the Ocompa system to start back to the Alpha Quadrant.
Plot Synopsis: Captain Janeways first week in command of Voyager in the Delta Quadrent
Consistency with canon Events- High. No contradictory information found by author
Demonstarted Abilities
Phaser Range, Maximum and Situation: 100,000 kilometers, blowing up a stationary mine
Phaser Range, Maximum stated, ship to ship combat. None, however battle started at 20,000 kilometers
Maximum Stated Power figures by System
Shields 5000 Gigawatts
Phasers 300 Gigawatts
Photon Torpedoes 60 megatons
Other: Tricobalt Device, 30,000 terracochranes, 100 megatons
Maximum Observed Warp Speed, Federation Ship and Class: Voyager, Warp 9.95
Maximum Observed Warp Speed, Non-Federation Ship and Class: Kazon Shuttle, Warp 6
New worlds: Kaza, said to be Kazon home world. Population: 1,000,000,000 Kazon
New Technologies:
None
Variant Technologies or uses:
Using the Deflector shield to disrupt low-energy warp fields

Combat and Technology Relevant Revelations
1 Megaton = 300 terracochranes

Cultural Revelations
One Kazon sect existing that doesn’t’ believe in violence except in self defense

Off course, the form would have to be expanded as new books were reviewed and new information types came up. Like a new species, cultural revelations about existing ones, etc

Larger analysis rules beyond this would have to wait until there was enough information to come up with them. For example, most of the Voyager novels appear to use the same numbers for Phaser and Shield power, and they are greater then on screen evidence, then something might have to be done to explain this without going ‘bad research/author wanking off’.
i.e 40% of the novels indicate firepower of 1000 GW and Shields of 90,000 GW, with reasonable in-novel evidence that reasonable supports this (like, blowing up asteroids with a certain size and composition and mass, and calculations showing that they had the numbers for firepower near the mark).
I’m not saying that will happen, but if it does, judgement calls would have to be made.

Anyway, part of the reason I brought it up on this board, was I was hoping to find a way to bring you onboard with this project. You have, in my opinion, proven yourself able to perform tech analysis without giving into prejudice or distaste for the subject, and a lake of willingness or interest to ‘bow to the masses’

I’m not saying I’d expect you to read the novels, but rather I’m hoping you’d be willing to give advice and help come up with reasonable fixes to tech concerns and firepower concerns. (like an authour that is almost perfectly in canon, but gives 40,000 TW as the average power of a phaser rifle. 40,000 Watts or Kilowatts maybe, but not that high. A fix would be author doesn’t no prefixes, made it up, etc, or even calculation derived from book evidence that shows the author made an mistake. Like characters saying it would take 40,000 TW to vaporize a 1 ton rock, and all there gun does is break it apart into pieces with a total mass of 80% of a ton, indicating 20% vaporization, for a net output of whatever it would be.) Or fix it to place them into the ‘primary What-if scenario’ if it’s just a number concern, and then looking at them separately as well. Like ‘this dialogue is obviously falty because of (laws of physics go here, backing math goes here). To insert into the ‘Primary Alternate Universe’ timeline, we need to make the following changes (changes go here)

I’m hoping to come up with something that will be fun for those involved. Or at least useful for someone.

Hopefully this clears things up. If I didn’t do a good job explaining it, hopefully I at least did an adequate job that you can figure it out yourself. (I admit I’m terrible at explaining non-technical things at times. It’s amazing, I can walk 20 Grade 5 kids through how to use a spreadsheet, but I can’t explain some of the ideas in my own head)

Anyway, Like I said, I wasn’t trying to bait you. I also thought that there would be rules was implied. (Given that the main website lays down rules P.D.Q I thought posting it here implied as much. My bad.)

I could actually compare what I have in mind with something fans have done for Star Wars.
Time Tales.

A Star Trek equal to Time Tales for us to play with.

Time Tales does a wonderful job of stitching together all the printed, official Star wars material, even that which is semi-contradictory. Not everyone likes it, but hey, it’s as good an attempt as the fans can probably do without getting offical sanction and full backing from LucasLiscencing and company.

Same idea.

I will admit, my choice of websites may not be ideal, but like I said, I am looking to get people beside totally-obsessed Star Trek fanatics and Federation-cultists. They might hijack the project or skew it or something.

<End of Section directly to Mike>
Well, that was a fun type.

By the way, I’m not back-peddling, I’m trying to clarify. Back peddling for me would be going ‘okay, fine, drop it’ or ‘hey, I never wanted to get into a debate, I was kidding’ or something like that. I’m saying, I think this could be something interesting to do. The canon debate is over, so why not expand it to non-canon and see what happens. Who CARES about the results of a non-canon debate. Kinda like, do we really care who wins in a fist fight/wrestling match between Kira and Padme, as long as we enjoy watching?

I guess in a way, you could equal this to ‘bad teaching’. Like when I was teaching someone how to play Dungeons and Dragons a few years back. The adventure I ran for them, it was 1st level, and no one had armor. You needed to roll a 10 or higher to hit them. The next time we played, it was a more detailed adventure (monsters and guys in armor in this one), and because I hadn’t taken the time to explain how armor class worked, well, very quickly there was an argument and I had to get out the rule book and do some explaining. Incidently, since then, Armor class is the third thing I explain, right after Abilities Scores and Race.

Now then, someone asked for contradictions within Star Wars novels and sources. Well, time to provide some.

Please note, you can confirm the existence of all material by going to
Http://www.theforce.net/TimeTales
Or just go onto the forums and ask “hey, is this true?”

Okay, according to the “Star Wars Episode I: Visual Dictionary”, Palapatine’s plan over Naboo consisted of a one month blockade to cut off food, causing the problem to get to the point it tid. However, “Star Wars Journal: Queen Amidala,” and “The Essential Chronology” [Page 22] and “Shadow Hunter” seem to contradict the one-month idea, that it took a different length of time. Most people go with the Visual Dictionary however, and use the mental fix of different times for people to notice the effects, etc. Personally, I just go with the Visual Dictionary.

“SW: Chewbacca.” Appears to contradict other accounts of Han and Chewie’s first meeting

During the Marvel Comic series after Empire Strikes Back, Luke has a working lightsaber. However, he doesn’t construct one until the events in Shadows of the Empire, which takes place, literally, in the week or two leading up to Return of the Jedi. Empire Strikes back attacks play in May – June, 3 years after the 1st Death Star was destroyed, with Shadows of the Empire taking place in October and Return of the Jedi taking place in the following February. So, between June and October, (3 – 4 months, depending on when in June and October), according to the novels, had had no lightsaber. However, in the comics, he did. Since the comics are official and part of canon too, where did the lightsaber come from? Considering the first comic with him post-cut off hand with a lightsaber is supposed to take place less then a week after Empire Strikes back (if I recall correctly, my comic collection is trash, and I don’t have all the reprints yet), there isn’t enough time between Shadows and Return to fit all the comics in.

(Note: The explanation in TimeTales is that it is the lightsaber he took from a Dark Side Jedi/Force user during the Omega Frost incident, also in the comics. Good comic by the way)

There is also the odd other one, but those are the three big ones I could find easily. Most of the other issues are usually dating ones, as if what year did it happen and which is correct. For example, the Dark Forces video game stats it starts right after the Battle of Yavin, but Executor is in it and wasn’t even under construction yet, and Vader was still enroute back to the Empire at that point, etc.

Now, before anyone screams ‘Timetales is fan material and that’s your argument?’ Let me point out
First, it’s fan material based entirely canon work, and consists of summaries of that material, just arranged in as close to a logical chronological order as can be done without serious re-writes.
The fixes are all indicated SEPARATE from the summaries.

Second, this is for what would be ‘fan material of sorts’

I guess it gets down to is this
Who wants to help make a Star Trek version of Time Tales we can then crunch for another angle to look at the ‘Star Wars vs Star Trek debate’ from.

We’ve beaten canon to death.
So why not start discussing the novels? Sure, kicking someone while it’s down might be mean, but it can be fun. Even if you don’t care about the versus debate, it could be fun or at least an interesting mental exercise.

And I know a lot of people think the novels are shit, or trash, or that they are good but there consistency is trash. So let’s get some seeds and grow something from that shit, or recycled that trash and make something useful.

With that explanation said. Beyond the people that have expressed interest already, any takers?

At the very least, it would give us something debate related to do, if people still care to argue the point, and maybe even a nice resource for fan-fics. I can just imagine HappyTarget redoing his ‘Terran Empire’ fan fic series to accomidate new ideas, species and so forth.

Or should I apologize for causing a hornet nest and accidentally upsetting and/or insulting people, request this thread just be locked, and if I spot someone that might be interested in this project while reading threads on this board, PM them about it.

Please note: I have no idea if the fans at Startrek.comt have attempted this before. I have seen suggestions for it on theforce.net for things other then star wars (Star Gate and Quantum Leap both come to memory), but not for Star Trek and the novels.

Anyway, that’s that.

I now step back to wait for the flames, insults, interested parties, raised eyebrows, death threats, and comments about my including a Padme – Kira fight without mentioning lesbian sex developing from it.

Oh, one more thing. Why did I say ‘Challenge’ instead of a suggestion.

Simple

Challenges get peoples attention. Suggestions usually go unanswered. The challenge here is doing it.

To borrow words from Emperor Palpatine “Yes, I COULD be a great asset. Can it be done?”

[Super-Gagme]

Seems Wong is making a bit of an ass out of himself. You can't really be nice to him without him shouting some kind of abuse at you. Maybe its him, maybes its some deep rooted emotional issues...?

Anyways I'm looking forward to whatever you all come up with. I don't know much about extra Star Trek info like Novels so hopefully this will enlighten me.

[SirNitram]

Seems Wong is making a bit of an ass out of himself. You can't really be nice to him without him shouting some kind of abuse at you. Maybe its him, maybes its some deep rooted emotional issues...?

And you probably think you're A) Witty, B) Original, C) Still polite, or D) All of the above.

[Super-Gagme]

Actually no, I think I have dry crap humor and the inability to make good remarks in sci-fi debates as do not have the scientific knowledge to do so. I am a lurker, I love the read the debates and pretend I know what half the words are. And I also dislike Wongs aggression towards people. You seem to be similar to him. Hell my first post on here was a simple question in which he smacked me down with insults. What an asshole.

[Alyeska]

What an asshole.

Thats kinda the unoffical policy here. You gotta be a member for a while and become somewhat respected before you can criticize Mike. Regardless you better have a solid base to stand on or else Mike will yank it out from under you.