Rumsfeld aka Ratbastard

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-07-20 02:34pm

Axis Kast wrote:
He's a creationist. That automatically makes him a cretin.
Not everybody who believes in God is immediately an idiot, this board's opinion aside.

Interesting how you dismiss all of the evidence and logical arguments brought forth in the history of this board and its attached website and the entire scientific community as mere "opinion", and then provide nothing in defense of creationism (which you erroneously attempt to equate to Christianity in general) but your personal authority. We have provided plenty of evidence that creationists are idiots; you have provided nothing but "I say so" to support your claim that they are not.

If you think that creationism is not the intellectual realm of idiots, then go ahead and defend it. Explain how it is possible for a non-idiot to believe that the Earth was created in six days, or that Eve could be created from Adam's side, or how man and ape can be unrelated even though there is not a single biological structure in apes which does not have an analogue in man. Every biological structure is there, and the only difference is proportions. Saying that mankind and apes are unrelated is like taking a piece of silly putty, squashing it, and then claiming that it must have been created anew, with no connection to the old one.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-07-20 02:38pm

I hate to be the devil's advocate here, but you're referring to YEC. Anyone who believes in YEC is either an idiot or a fanatic completely blinded by his religion. Not all creationists are of the young earth variety, however, and while other brands of creationism are still logically unsound, they do not require practically everything we know about modern science to be thrown as does YEC. So I would say you can be a non-YE creationist and not be a moron.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-07-20 04:28pm

So, by the standard of this forum, any human being who believes in Creationism is automatically bereft of any intellectual capacity. Well, I suppose we can throw out a vast majority of the populations of the Middle East, Indian Subcontinent, or Southeast Asian Rim. Just because George W. Bush professes to believe in a religious concept on faith alone does not mean he is an intellectual basket case. Theology and belief are peculiar in that they are regularly admitted to defy scientific logic – while still gathering to them untold millions or billions of followers. Just because the American President is among them doesn’t mean his ability to deal with any given crisis or deal with the world intellectually is diminished.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-07-20 05:06pm

Axis Kast wrote:So, by the standard of this forum, any human being who believes in Creationism is automatically bereft of any intellectual capacity.

Any educated human being who believes in Creationism (in the Biblical sense, some people like to play with the definition) is a moron.

Well, I suppose we can throw out a vast majority of the populations of the Middle East, Indian Subcontinent, or Southeast Asian Rim.

The vast majority of the population of those countries has been brainwashed since birth with those notions, and didn't go to college to understand science. Their intelectual capabilities are thusly not high.

Just because George W. Bush professes to believe in a religious concept on faith alone does not mean he is an intellectual basket case.

That and many other things he says and does.

Theology and belief are peculiar in that they are regularly admitted to defy scientific logic – while still gathering to them untold millions or billions of followers. Just because the American President is among them doesn’t mean his ability to deal with any given crisis or deal with the world intellectually is diminished.

Yes, it does. See his stance on Abortion, or Biblical studies in schools. the US power centres have far too much christian fundamentalism.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-07-20 06:09pm

Time for my favourite Dawkings quote... well one of my favourite Dawkings quotes, there are so damn many good ones.

"It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that)."
-- Richard Dawkins

Well said!

And while were at it, Axis are you a creationist? Perhaps it would be better to ask, do you belief that the Theory of Evolution is valid?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-07-20 06:18pm

Axis Kat lives down to my expectations as always...

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-07-20 06:36pm

Just to nitpick as the token German (TM):
"Ich bin ein Berliner" is absolutely correct.
While "Berliner" means a doghnut shaped pastery, it also means a male inhabitant of the city of Berlin.
Just as "Hamburger" is not only something to eat, but a male inhabitant of Hamburg.

No german laughed about it, mistook it or whatever.

And about public speaking abilities: It's a politicians' job to perfom in public. I don't know a German politician who churns out so many many language massacres as Bush.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-07-20 07:51pm

Anyone believing in creationsism has the intellectual range of a braindead rat.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-07-20 07:56pm

Anyone believing in creationsism has the intellectual range of a braindead rat.

Great blanket statement there. I'm positive our President really does have the intellectual range of a rodent.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-07-20 07:59pm

Anyone who believes in YEC creationism demonstrates poor critical thinking as well as an ability to overlook hard facts in order to advance their own pet theory.

Neither is desirable in a POTUS.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-07-20 08:00pm

Axis Kast wrote:
Anyone believing in creationsism has the intellectual range of a braindead rat.
Great blanket statement there. I'm positive our President really does have the intellectual range of a rodent.

So am I.
He looks stupid, he utters stupidity were he walks, he does idiotic things.
All in all, he fully qualifies.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-07-20 08:15pm

Axis Kast wrote:
Anyone believing in creationsism has the intellectual range of a braindead rat.
Great blanket statement there. I'm positive our President really does have the intellectual range of a rodent.

Are you going to back up your shit, Axis, or just be a moron? You have made a statement.. Back it up or fuck off. It's a fairly simple concept.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-20 08:18pm

SirNitram wrote:
Axis Kast wrote:
Anyone believing in creationsism has the intellectual range of a braindead rat.
Great blanket statement there. I'm positive our President really does have the intellectual range of a rodent.
Are you going to back up your shit, Axis, or just be a moron? You have made a statement.. Back it up or fuck off. It's a fairly simple concept.

Axis, it's plai and simple. A logical human being CANNOT possibly adhere to Creationism or teh Great Flood. It's simply WRONG. If you were told Bush believed that we were the result of alien experimentation on life on Earth and that one day they would return how would you feel about that. The same basis for belief in that story would be required for Creationism.

This is not a matter as nebulous as belief in God which can neither be proven or diproven, but a belief in CREATIONISM, you know, the Earth was created in six days, Adam and Eve, etc etc.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-07-20 08:45pm

There is, of course, a difference between speaking stupidly and merely fumbling your language. It's one thing to say 'They misunderestimated me', because that's just a fumble. Perhaps he was nervous. He shouldn't be, but. This is fucking up stupidly.

"It's clearly a budget. It's got a lot of numbers in it."--Reuters, May 5, 2000

Yea, I want this guy in charge of the economy.

"Natural gas is hemispheric. I like to call it hemispheric in nature because it is a product that we can find in our neighborhoods."—Austin, Texas, Dec. 20, 2000

Exactly... Uh.. What? What did he say? DOes that make ANY sense?

"They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program."—Debate in St. Charles, Mo., Nov. 2, 2000

You can't expect me to top the innate humor there.

It's not just fumbling words or picking the wrong ones. It's spouting gibberish and saying asinine things.

Slayen · Post by **Slayen** » 2003-07-21 12:16am

Excuse me if for asking but, when did Bush say that he was a creationist? I'm just curious.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-07-21 06:16am

Slayen wrote:Excuse me if for asking but, when did Bush say that he was a creationist? I'm just curious.

"Characteristically, he does not believe in evolution--he says the jury is still out--but he does not actively disbelieve in it either; as a friend puts it, "he doesn't really care about that kind of thing."

and

"I'd make it a goal to make sure that local folks got to make the decision as to whether or not they said creationism has been a part of our history and whether or not people ought to be exposed to different theories as to how the world was formed."

Bush was responding to the Kansas Board of Education's decree last year that each of the state's school districts teach creationism alongside evolution.

"The Republican Party platform in Bush's home state warns of what to expect from a federal government guided by religious-right radicalism. "The Republican Party of Texas reaffirms the United States of America as a Christian Nation," the platform says, and seeks to nullify the separation between church and state. It would abolish the Environmental Protection Agency, Department of Energy and Department of Education. It dismisses global warming as "myth." And it promotes public school education "based upon biblical principles," not upon secular humanism, which teaches Darwinian evolution theory and a scientific worldview. If the Texas Republican Party platform became the law of the land, America would become a very different place."- January 6, 2003

Anyway you slice it, he doesn't know the difference between science and religious dogma- or he pretends not to to please his constituents. Either does not garner my respect.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-07-21 07:35am

SirNitram wrote:
"They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program."—Debate in St. Charles, Mo., Nov. 2, 2000

You can't expect me to top the innate humor there.

I'd like to see the full transcript of that debate, since what he said makes sense if its in referance to calls to privatized social security or make it independent in some form.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-07-21 07:36am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:He has taken classes on public speaking, and has made a career out of it. After even his campaign for Gov of Texas his central nervous system should have adapted to that kind of stressful stimulus. Agrguing that being in front of people is stressful or scary is just plain stupid. If that scared him, he never would have gone into politics.

And generally ones ability to speak is an indicator of intellect... Forming words and communicationg with your fellow humans is a function of brain size, development of the brain, and vocal cord development, and breathing control.

I am loath to support Axis on anything but this is one thing I feel I must. Unless you are Bush's personal doctor, I would not label him as having a inferioir intellect. For all you know he may have a disability of some kind that effects his speaking ability, but not his ability to function normally in his current role.
Judge the man by his policy's effectiveness not by his demonstrated ability to mangle words.
Your argument above is an Ad Hominem, you should know better.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-07-21 09:15am

To me, how he speaks is irrelevant- what his views are on issues of creationism vs science is however VERY relevant to estimates of his intelligence.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-21 10:47am

Vympel wrote:To me, how he speaks is irrelevant- what his views are on issues of creationism vs science is however VERY relevant to estimates of his intelligence.

On that issue he is a Born again Christian and part of their dogma is to accept the bible as lietrally true. I should know, I had to stop dating one because we would always get into these arguments about the Flood and Genesis. I also attended one of their prayer meetings. *shudder*

Off topic but funny: WHile at the service, the preacher reads from the Book of Samuel where David before he becomes King is in hiding from Saul. He hides out in the wilderness with some freinds, forms a band and starts robbing people and raiding villages. Well one day the generic-ITES come in and raid David's village while he's away plundering.

David and his men return greif stricken and vow revenge. They go to the generic-ITES village and proceeds to SLAUGHTER EVERY MAN WOMAN AND CHILD.

The preacher asks what is the message in this tale.

I mutter under my breath "What comes around goes around." A couple of the zombies shoot me an annoyed look. The preacher goes on to say "God will be with you during your most difficult times and if you believe in him you will be victorious in your struggles."

I had to bite my tongue.

You know MAYBE if David weren't going off robbing people he would have been there to defend his village and MAYBE the generic-ITES didn't deserve to be slaughtered to the child in response to a raid - something David was routinely doing.

Sorry, felt like I should share that gem, but this is the mind set we're dealing with in regard to Born Agains.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-07-21 03:05pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
"They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program."—Debate in St. Charles, Mo., Nov. 2, 2000

You can't expect me to top the innate humor there.
I'd like to see the full transcript of that debate, since what he said makes sense if its in referance to calls to privatized social security or make it independent in some form.

The only way it would make sense is if he was being sarcastic. If he was, the sarcasm was lost on everyone. He certainly sounded serious.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-07-21 08:00pm

Are you going to back up your shit, Axis, or just be a moron? You have made a statement.. Back it up or fuck off. It's a fairly simple concept.

Going to back up what? My argument that the complete intellectual capability of George W. Bush cannot possibly be determined solely by analyzing his more radical religious beliefs? I would have though this was simply common sense. The man’s personal belief in Creationism might be worthy of criticism – and no, I don’t believe in Biblical Creationism per se, even while I acknowledge the existence of a God -, but it’s insufficient evidence to determine complete and utter stupidity.

Notice that George Bush handled two distinct crisis extremely capably – that in China in 2001, and that currently in North Korea. I also reject the notion that he might be at the center of “Daddy’s conspiracy.” It’s one thing to say that his wealth and political connections helped him considerably, and quite another to suggest that he could have become the American President as nothing but the centerpiece of somebody else’s agenda.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-07-21 10:14pm

Axis Kast wrote:
Are you going to back up your shit, Axis, or just be a moron? You have made a statement.. Back it up or fuck off. It's a fairly simple concept.
Going to back up what? My argument that the complete intellectual capability of George W. Bush cannot possibly be determined solely by analyzing his more radical religious beliefs? I would have though this was simply common sense. The man’s personal belief in Creationism might be worthy of criticism – and no, I don’t believe in Biblical Creationism per se, even while I acknowledge the existence of a God -, but it’s insufficient evidence to determine complete and utter stupidity.

Back that up. Bush's stated religious beliefs require either being a complete moron or being incredibly delusional. Neither are things we want in our public leader.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-07-21 11:07pm

Back that up. Bush's stated religious beliefs require either being a complete moron or being incredibly delusional. Neither are things we want in our public leader.

Back what up? The fact that qualifying his intelligence on religious beliefs alone is faulty? It's just plain common sense. You're discounting the fact that theology is itself irrational (not to mention the fact that George W. Bush would have to be of at least above-average intelligence in order to have achieved the Presidency).

Bush's state religious beliefs place him at odds with a smug, cock-sure view of the universe as held by Mike Wong and Co. That's not at all grounds for a certain qualification of intellectual capability. No indeed. And what we want in a public leader has nothing to do with whether or not George W. Bush is "a moron" because of his belief in Creationism. This isn't a political comparison. It's stictly a discussion about whether or not we can properly determine a human being's intellectual capacity by way of his belief in Creationism.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-07-22 12:09am

Well, thanks, Axis, you've proven that you're about on par with W, and about as idiotic as ever as you take a potshot at those here for daring to beleive that the past two hundred years of scientific study are superior to a bunch of myths more than five thousand years old. I suggest you consider that difference, maybe then teh point will sink through your skull.