RedImperator wrote:If this conspiracy nonsense continues, I might be tempted into matching Marina's rant. Seriously, use your damn brains. Do you really think the British government would be so inept as to kill him NOW? Do you really think that they wouldn't be able to anticipate people connecting the dots like this? Do you really think he knew something so damaging, or that Tony Goddamn Blair is so vicious, that he'd be worth killing? What's the worst possible thing he could say? The government lied while it was drumming up support for an unpopular war? Oh, be still my heart, the government lied! Now I'll be disillusioned forever! Jesus Christ. Marina's right--I'd expect this kind of shit out of raving hystrical hippies who think John Ashcroft is coming to hook car batteries to their testicles or Michigan Militia members trying to buy Stinger missiles to shoot down the black helicopters.
What I find a little queer here is that while you are annoyed at people taking note of the odd timing of the guys suicide (note that I believe it was just that; a suicide) and bringing up the possibility he may have been snuffed, you aren't at all annoyed about the possibility that the government lying about evidence to gain support for a war.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet
"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert
"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
RedImperator wrote:If this conspiracy nonsense continues, I might be tempted into matching Marina's rant.
Every board, company water cooler, etc. has its own nutcase conspiracy theorists. The litmus test is whether they actually start gaining general support.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Gil Hamilton wrote:What I find a little queer here is that while you are annoyed at people taking note of the odd timing of the guys suicide (note that I believe it was just that; a suicide) and bringing up the possibility he may have been snuffed, you aren't at all annoyed about the possibility that the government lying about evidence to gain support for a war.
It's not just "taking note"--people are already rubbing their hands together anticipating the collapse of the Blair government. At any rate, conspiracy theory shit always annoys me, especially when people who have otherwise shown themselves to be intelligent and logical start spouting them.
As for lying about the war, you're probably right, I should be more upset. Two reasons why I'm not: first, four years of polisci either makes you an idealist or a cynic, and I'm not an idealist. Second, I never believed the WMD argument anyway, at least not as the primary reason we were going in, so I'm not as surprised as I ought to be at the news some of the evidence was exagerated or outright fabricated. This is exactly the kind of nonsense you'd expect from a mental dwarf who surrounds himself with a cast of characters right out of All the President's Men.
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963 X-Ray Blues
RedImperator wrote:If this conspiracy nonsense continues, I might be tempted into matching Marina's rant....
I must agree completely, though I don’t write rants on politics not related to weapons procurement.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
I'm just saying that it seems kind of silly to be more annoyed over some harmless conspiracy nutters on a message board than the possibility that evidence that contributed to starting a large conflict in the real world could have been fabricated.
Hmm... that actually does make a sick sort of sense, human psychology wise.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet
"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert
"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
Gil Hamilton wrote:I'm just saying that it seems kind of silly to be more annoyed over some harmless conspiracy nutters on a message board than the possibility that evidence that contributed to starting a large conflict in the real world could have been fabricated.
Not fabricated so much as exaggerated by essentially quoting out of context ("context" being various qualifiers and unknowns that were quietly removed, which is why Colin Powell had his own people going over the list of claims and quietly discarding many of them prior to his UN address, according to Newsweek Magazine's sources; he knew how fast and loose the Bush people were playing with the facts).
But if we're going to talk about the dishonesty issue, I do find it quite amusing that the same crowd which has been screaming for years that "it's not the nature of the lie, it's the principle of lying!" about Bill Clinton and is now defending the Bush Administration's blatant misrepresentation of facts leading up to the Iraq war. Regardless of whether you think it was a good idea to invade, it is now indisputable that the Bush Administration did pull a fast one, and on a subject of huge importance.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Regardless of whether you think it was a good idea to invade, it is now indisputable that the Bush Administration did pull a fast one, and on a subject of huge importance.
Did they though?
I never believed them for a second (although I still favoured war because it got rid of Saddam) when listening to any politician unless they display something concrete I tend to take any claims they make as 90% spin 6% deception and 4% shaky truth.
I think most people had severe reservations about the lack of evidence for a war before the fact, along with the justification even if the evidence was there.
The simple fact is that Blair and Bush forged on anyway hoping they would find something they could trump up as a vindication, although even before the war Blair was switching to the liberation angel because the WMD route wasn't playing well in Britain.
Of course the US news media may not have been quite as questioning as others so this revelation that Bush and Co were exaggerated their evidence may come of more shock over there than over here.
TheDarkling wrote:Of course the US news media may not have been quite as questioning as others so this revelation that Bush and Co were exaggerated their evidence may come of more shock over there than over here.
The US media should quite frankly be ashamed of themselves for their outright fawning during this whole situation. However, the shock was not so much that they were playing fast and loose with the info (I think a lot of people either knew or suspected this) but how blatantly obvious this policy was within the organization. A real "nudge nudge, wink wink" sort of attitude seemed to prevail, and whistle-blowers were nowhere to be found.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
A friend of mine hanged himself for no known reason. He was 24, almost an engineer and highly estimeed by his loved ones and friends. Some people do crack with pressure or something else, while others do not. I see no big benefit to the British government resulting of his death (specially comparing with the losses) and his own wife admits he was under lots of stress.
In all seriousness though, and slightly off-topic, CO brings up a good point. People who threaten (and sometimes try) suicide are typically people that are irrational with emotional pain, and unfortunatley look to death as a release from that pain.
However, people that want to die typically just up and do it, no note, no warning, just all of sudden they're dead by their own hand.
In crisis counseling, this is often the first thing analyzed when someone is suicidal: are they fraught with emotion and irrationality, or, do they really want to be dead.
Original Warsie ++ Smartass! ~ Picker ~ Grinner ~ Lover ~ Sinner ++ "There's no time for later now"
After reading this thread, it does make sense that he committed suicide. If nothing else, how would one feel if they thought they helped caused a war, especially one surrounded by as much controversy as the Iraq war?
Original Warsie ++ Smartass! ~ Picker ~ Grinner ~ Lover ~ Sinner ++ "There's no time for later now"
If this man was bumped off by his goverment they could not have timed it better.
Think about it they would know full will that there would be so many conspiracy buffs going ape shit over this that no one would belive it.
Anyways my condolances to his wife.
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" poor bruised and mistreated? jesus Christ Iggy, you haven't been watching Voyager reruns again have you? " - Darth Fanboy
What about the possibility someone else murdered him? Someone outside the British government with something greater at stake than loss of face?
That's the wrong way to tickle Mary, that's the wrong way to kiss!
Don't you know that, over here lad, they like it best like this!
Hooray, pour les français! Farewell, Angleterre!
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